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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 05:41:51
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Master LordofBones,
quote:
I'm genuinely trying to think of what Shoon did that puts him on par with Aumvor, much less Karsus. Trying to put unicorns on the Faerun Wildlife Fund and irritating a dragon aside, he...uh...survived being poisoned.
Wonderful tidings to you good sir! You know, I just so happen to have a list of Shoon VII's list of achievements on hand.... you may remember them from March of this year when it was demonstrated that Acererak was barely qualified to be considered anything more than the hired help.
quote:
On the other hand, here is a complete listing of Shoon VII's victories:
- He was so skilled at spell battles that he had already slain at least twelve archmages before he even became emperor.
- As emperor, Shoon VII made sure that he had full control of the subtlest details of his empire. He immediately demanded a vow of loyalty (enforced magically) from each of the calephs arcane. Some refused and were killed; others accepted and were rewarded with riches. The caleph arcane of Memnon was one who refused, as did the mages under him, so Shoon VII killed them all and proceeded to rule the guild arcane of Memnon himself.
- In 326 DR, in Tashalar, one of the vassal states of the Empire, a wizard named Onsilur Maerdrathom convinced the imperial satraps to enforce legal protections for all mages in the region. This led to a temporary peace in the region. As long as the cities of the Tashtan Coast were squabbling amongst themselves, they could not pose a threat to his throne, so Shoon demanded that the imperial satraps, his vassals, remove Onsilur from power. They obeyed, and hired mercenary mages from Mulhorand to eliminate him.
- Shoon was responsible for the deaths of at least two dozen unicorns, which were sacrificed to create his most powerful magical artifacts. He even sanctioned hunts against them.
- In 355 DR, when the elves of the Snakewood tried to defend a small herd of seven unicorns from being captured and slain, Shoon VII ordered his legions to eradicate the elves. So many elves were killed that the headwaters of River Rimril turned red from blood. Two-thirds of the elves from two tribes of the forest were captured. Half of these were enslaved; on the other half, Shoon VII performed horrifying magical experiments.
- From the slaughtered elves and unicorns, Shoon VII was able to craft the magical artifact known as the Tome of the Unicorn. Shoon complete his enchantments on the Tome in 355 DR by soaking the metal book plates in the blood of twelve unicorns. Not wanting to waste the remains of the unicorns he had massacred, he used their horns to carve the Staff of Shoon.
- In 361 DR, Shoon VII discovered the hidden lair of Hazamir al Aktorral, a former regent of the Empire who had successfully become a lich. Shoon VII battled with Hazamir and turned him into a grisgol.
Citations annotated within: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shoon_VII
So, let's take a look here and expound on this:
1) He personally took on twelve archmages and wrecked them.
2) Compelled powerful caleph's to be loyal, through magic, and when some didn't he had them killed. No revolution, no taking on the man. Nope, they all took it because they knew him to personally to be so powerful, they couldn't do anything about it.
3) When Shoon VII got tired of Onsilur Maerdrathom, the "Ruling" Magister (Secrets of the Magister), and sent other mages to deal with him and had him killed. He wasn't even worth the time of Shoon VII to go have to do it himself. Now that is power, when you know the Magister to be an afterthought in terms of dealing with.
4) Shoon went and killed (12) unicorns, in Lurue's backyard and where was Lurue? Sitting there taking it like the kind of archfey that someone like Acererak would fight, instead of real wizards like Shoon VII.
5) Shoon VII, after having had his legions go dominate the Snakewood and do whatever they want, because.........power, took back some Elves and had Happy's Fun Time Hour with them. I didn't see anyone come to help them out because.... power.
Fun Fact Time: Rillifane Rallathil deity of protecting the woodlands didn't even show up to protect the woods or Elves. He just stood on by instead of doing his job. Seems like Shoon VII knows how to make them run, because... power.
Fun Fact Trivia Time: Which legions did Acererak control? None. Though, he did know how to have a good time enslaving a whole bunch of local tribal people, making them build the Tomb of the Nine Gods and then killed them. It's not like 3 million people or anything, but it's a start.... low level wannabe power.
yawn Whew.... sorry, I fell asleep when I was reading the Lich's guide to slavery and architecture there. It was that or read the autobiography of Acererak, but that's like, 2 pages?
6) Shoon VII then took the blood of the unicorns that Lurue watched get slaughtered but dare not do anything to respond to, and made a couple of high level artifacts with them. I just sort of see that like someone coming in and spiking the ball in the end zone, when the end zone is Lurue's face.
7) Shoon VII tracked down a lich, wrecked him, and turned it into a construct, hahaha. Seriously, you can't make this stuff up.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 06:48:14
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1. "Archmage" is a meaningless term in the Realms. "Archmage" has been used to describe everyone from Vangy to Larloch.
2. That's not a feat of magical prowess. He's a reality warping wizard, of course the magicless yobs won't do jack.
3. How is this a mark of anything? Shoon not being arsed to go do the job himself isn't a sign of his power; he has minions he can delegate to. It's not like we know how powerful the Magister is, given that the most recent holder of the title is just barely 20th level.
4. That's nice. The Red Wizards turn Lurue's children into monsters and she doesn't do jack either. That's not a mark against Lurue so much as it is a sign that the powers can't go around smackin' uppity liches in the face, except for Mystra who does what she wants. Meanwhile, Sammaster actually did fight the avatar of the god of "I HATE UNDEAD" and actually managed to wound him.
5. See above.
6. I mean, Aumvor created the Crown of Horns which drove a Chosen of Mystra batshit cuckoo. That's vastly more impressive than the Staff of Shoon's CL 15 blade barrier and heal, which is useless to Shoon because an an undead heal actually hurts him. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 25 Nov 2020 06:49:49 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 07:21:46
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Master LordofBones,
As always, I appreciate the response! :)
quote:
1. "Archmage" is a meaningless term in the Realms. "Archmage" has been used to describe everyone from Vangy to Larloch.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. What it means in the Realms is, quote:
Its most advanced practitioners are frequently archmages, bending spells in ways unavailable to other spellcasters. (FRCS 3rd Edition, p.41)
. Certainly there are ranges of spellcasters that are Archmagi, but to discount the archmage as meaningless is to discount the very actions, studies, and powers that people like Elminster, the Blackstaff, Lady Polaris, and others have attained and utilize to bolster their extraordinary power, to what it is currently. Certainly to call the element of archmage that those individuals pursued, meaningless, ignores the notion that you are at the top of a wizard's game, otherwise, why would Elminster and other's max out the (5) levels of Archmage?
quote:
2. That's not a feat of magical prowess. He's a reality warping wizard, of course the magicless yobs won't do jack.
If the notion is that magical prowess has to be used in every given instance for magic to be considered valid, then I could see your point. However, if an 36th level Necromancer says, do this, and the normally all powerful caleph's would typically say no, just jump to it, the implication is that he could level everything. Just as he genocidally wiped out 3 million people. Power doesn't always have to be used in a direct "fight" if you will, when people know you will just simply be irrevocably annihilated because the wizard in question is one of the most powerful wizards ever.
I mean, when Shoon VII is already more powerful than Lady Polaris, Elminster, Khelben Arunsun, and the Simbul, I think you're pretty dang powerful, lol.
quote:
3. How is this a mark of anything? Shoon not being arsed to go do the job himself isn't a sign of his power; he has minions he can delegate to. It's not like we know how powerful the Magister is, given that the most recent holder of the title is just barely 20th level.
lol...when a Magister of Mystra is such a low level, hired hand, loser that you send other powerful people to take care of him, that is power. You don't get to command powerful people to go murder the Magister of Mystra as a second hand thought unless you are insanely powerful.
quote:
4. That's nice. The Red Wizards turn Lurue's children into monsters and she doesn't do jack either. That's not a mark against Lurue so much as it is a sign that the powers can't go around smackin' uppity liches in the face, except for Mystra who does what she wants. Meanwhile, Sammaster actually did fight the avatar of the god of "I HATE UNDEAD" and actually managed to wound him.
It's because Lurue, like Savras when Azuth beat him up, knew she'd get wrecked if she went over to have a "talk" with Shoon VII. He would beat her like a red-headed step child. lol
She knew if a lower-grade demi-lich like Acererak could take out the pretender squad Archfey, that Shoon VII would have her washing his dishes in about 30 seconds.
As far as Sammaster. Yeah, I think the reason the Morninglord was willing to take on Sammaster is because Sammaster wasn't all that powerful. Level 26 necromancer? lol Shoon VII adds 10 more levels on top of that and he was the most powerful (as far as stats are known that I could find) demi-lich of the known (8) demi-liches.
Basically, the only wizard (so far) that I can kind that is higher level than Shoon VII, was Karsus, by (5) levels.
quote:
5. See above.
haha...that's simply invalid. Just because some low-grade chump like Szass Tam and his go go power ranger come along crew the Red Wizards can go do stuff, doesn't mean they could go the rounds with Shoon VII. Szass Tam = 29th level Necromancer, Shoon VII, 36th Necromancer. I think Shoon VII may still have some room in his classes if Szass or Sammaster wanted to learn how to be real necromancers. ;) Shoon VII would have those loser, low grade puppet chump Red Wizards working as street sweepers inside of (3) minutes after he got done performing the intergalactic a*swhoopin' of all times on them.
quote:
6. I mean, Aumvor created the Crown of Horns which drove a Chosen of Mystra batshit cuckoo. That's vastly more impressive than the Staff of Shoon's CL 15 blade barrier and heal, which is useless to Shoon because an an undead heal actually hurts him.
As to the artifacts, certainly no one would argue that the insanity effect and what not of the Crown of Horns was/is powerful. It's an artifact of great power, and I wasn't going to bring up the staff. On the other hand, the Tome of Unicorns, is an equally powerful artifact when compared to the Crown of Horns. The Stealspell effect, is ludicrously powerful, and I feel is on par in scope and scale of power as to that of the Crown of Horns. I mean, after all, Trebbe was just a 28th level archmage. You known Shoon VII put vastly more power into that Tome so that it could operate in anti-magic zones and still steal spells. What happens when you put the Crown of Horns in an anti-magic zone? Oh yeah, that's right. It's just a paperweight. Nice!
Oh yeah, Aumvor the 32nd level necromancer? Let me see if I can swing a favor from Shoon VII to get him into class too. He'd be a great grad assistant. ;) He's a powerful wizard, but could still learn a few things from Shoon VII at 36th level. ;) Oh yeah, I almost forgot, he's a regular lich. Well, that's cute, or whatever...
Now, as to Karsus, he is clearly more powerful at 41st level, no bones about that, when you look at the raw stats. However, there is one little thing that Karsus, with all of his might, didn't have that Shoon VII does have: he's a demi-lich.
There are a grand total (if I have my information correct here) of (8) known demi-liches, of which, Shoon VII is the most powerful.
That comes with things like absolute Magic immunity, except three spells: Shatter, Dispel Evil, and Holy Smite. Trapping (8) souls a day, phylactery transference and more. So, let's play this out real quick in a dramatic scene...
_____________
Karsus and Shoon VII hit the battlefield, and square off...
Karsus: *begins casting one of his 10th or 11th level spells*
Shoon VII: *yawns, but takes his time yawning, knowing he's immune to it*
Karsus: *casts 'fill in the blank because it is irrelevant unless it is Shatter, Dispel Evil, or Holy Smite'* Let's take a peek at the spells that can "harm" him though, just to show that they are useless too. Holy Smite does on average (88) HP, halved on the successful save to 44, and DR 30 = awkward. Dispel Evil will have to overcome at least a 39 touch AC, and even then, the Will save will be easily made. Shatter has a max of 10d6, which on average produces (30) HP damage, then gets reduced for the sonic 20 damage reduction, and then is halved for the demi-lich special power against shatter. So on average, 5HP = awkward.
So that's awkward only three spells could harm Shoon VII from Karsus, and even then they pretty much nothing. That's a little awkward.
The rest of the scene is boring, because the undead demi-lich just waits out Karsus whether that be spells, needing sleep, boredom, sanity, etc., and then defeats him.
______________
Defeats him even if he is a demi-god, because demi-gods don't have a strong history of doing well against insanely powerful archmagi in the Realms. Just go ask Savras how that worked out when Azuth beat him like a rug...
The point being, when taking into account Shoon VII's straight up 36 levels of necromancer, his artifact history, and his being the most powerful demi-lich around (unless I've overlooked something and correct me if I have), that is a winning combo there.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 12:53:10
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| The topic question itself has more holes than a factory of Swiss cheese. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 17:05:57
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Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Well, since you asked, in my Realms, The Masked Mage is an NPC that is basically the combination of the Dungeon Master meets the Srinshee.
He was originally from Krynn, one of the "first born" High Ogres created by the Dark Queen (so yes, deep down he's a bit evil :P but the years have tempered much of that into True Neutrality). In the Irda novel, magic wielding High Ogres are described as sorcerers for whom casting spells was basically second nature... add to that many millennia practicing. He first came to the Realms during the wars between the Batrachi and Ostoria, so he's had a few years to practice even the most difficult magics.
The idea for the NPC came from me asking myself, what if there is a single, powerful spellcaster who has assumed multiple identities over the years that ties together the mighty magical empires. So after gaining his shapechanging powers as an Irda he starts taking the form of other races and down through the years is many of the named spellcasters in the histories of Krynn / Toril / Oerth - including half a dozen from the Netheril Set... When you add them all up, he's is the creator of many if not most of the standard D&D spells and as one of the Seven Wizards he taught both Khelben and Elminster back in Myth Drannor the rudiments of what Ed calls "Weave Mastery." (He also taught the Srinshee, but that was about 1000 years earlier :P) He also creates/collects artifacts and relics and has no qualms about using them :P.
In power level he's a quasi-deity who has no need or desire to gain followers because he's watched as many gods have died and sees their dependence on followers as a weakness. As one who's life is intrinsically tied to magic, he does have some ties to the various Gods of Magic. His primary goal is always to find some magic he has not yet learned / mastered (which are few) so if an apprentice can come up with a cantrip he has never considered before, that apprentice receives more respect/support than the mightiest archmages might.
Too long an answer to a simple question, but I've been using the character on and off for almost 20 years now :)
This sounds like my alter-ego the Arcanamach in my homebrew. The difference is he's a star elf (an exceedingly rare subrace) that time travels. He has time travelled to the time before the rise of the sarrukh and is a little over 12,000 years old. He has spent centuries in some ages. However, he has rarely been a historical figure of note, generally being in the background quietly driving things in one direction or another. He is a devotee of the gods of magic and the Seldarine. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 17:57:51
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Senior Scribe Delnyn,
haha, it's true. However, it is great fun to be a bit jocular with the back and forth as with Master LordofBones and I. Good fun indeed! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 19:49:50
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A bit contradictory to ask for "the best" and "most powerful" but "not based on some stats".
I'd vote for Rimmen of the Scarlet Eye, but since the list only has those with the best stats and most levels I guess not.  |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 06:33:28
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Acolyte Returnip,
I can certainly say I agree with some of your implied points there. I am curious what made Rimmen come to mind for you?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 10:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I am curious what made Rimmen come to mind for you?
Best regards,
Versatility and ambition mostly. Being able to switch between spells in combat such as the mage lord is able to offsets the weakness of fewer spells per day of the wizard class. This means a mage lord can have a wider variety of spells available to them at any given time than a wizard can meaning they'll also stand a higher chance to have "the right tool for the job". Wizards have to plan ahead when they prepare spells for the day, but there's a saying "a plan only works until it leaves the table". This means that while a plan is good to have, in actual battle you need to be able to adapt. A mage lord is a lot more versatile than a wizard in that sense. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 27 Nov 2020 10:56:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 15:31:10
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That's why I've loved sorcerers since they came out -- they've got that tactical flexibility that wizards lack.
Any time a wizard can prep for the situation he's going to face, a wizard will beat a sorcerer, hands down. But going in unprepared -- sorcerer, all the way.
Knowing the best spell is useless if you can't cast it when you need to. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 16:20:46
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Acolyte Returnip,
quote:
Versatility and ambition mostly. Being able to switch between spells in combat such as the mage lord is able to offsets the weakness of fewer spells per day of the wizard class.
Nice call on that one for sure. While I obviously selected a really powerful wizard with Shoon VII, I do like to see selection of individuals like you selected for a variety of reasons. It would be much more likely to run across someone such as Rimmen (who is certainly quite powerful) than Shoon VII, or others that have been picked thus far. Power, as I've argued is not always a "one on one fight", which is why I think looking at ambition and how it is utilized.
I definitely liked your selection.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 16:22:59
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Master Rupert,
quote:
That's why I've loved sorcerers since they came out -- they've got that tactical flexibility that wizards lack. Any time a wizard can prep for the situation he's going to face, a wizard will beat a sorcerer, hands down. But going in unprepared -- sorcerer, all the way. Knowing the best spell is useless if you can't cast it when you need to.
I hear you there. Yeah, if you get an equal level wizard and sorcerer running across one another for a fight, that versatility is extremely powerful. Did you always play straight sorcerer, or did you mix and match with some other PrC's, archtypes, or something else?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 17:10:54
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| Other factors that are important is if the spellcaster is focused on beating other spellcasters in which case it would be more powerful than a spellcaster geared to take on anything. Mage-killer (Magic of Faerûn) or Suel arcanamach (Complete Arcane) comes to mind. A spellcaster who is great at dispelling, counterspelling and protecting itself against magic attacks will have the upper hand against a spellcaster who is a generalist in many cases. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 17:28:39
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Acolyte Returnip,
Yeah, that all makes sense. One of the most powerful builds I've ever seen is a focused master specialist Abjurer. A real bruiser for sure.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 18:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
quote:
That's why I've loved sorcerers since they came out -- they've got that tactical flexibility that wizards lack. Any time a wizard can prep for the situation he's going to face, a wizard will beat a sorcerer, hands down. But going in unprepared -- sorcerer, all the way. Knowing the best spell is useless if you can't cast it when you need to.
I hear you there. Yeah, if you get an equal level wizard and sorcerer running across one another for a fight, that versatility is extremely powerful. Did you always play straight sorcerer, or did you mix and match with some other PrC's, archtypes, or something else?
Best regards,
Actually, the one sorcerer I played was a variant one -- an Iron Kingdoms gun mage. He was quite skilled with a pistol, and through use of a magelock pistol and rune-marked ammo, delivered a lot of his spells via bullets. I thought it was awesome being able to shoot someone with a vampiric touch!
Not all spells were through the pistol -- just rays and touch spells. But that was still a lot of fun. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 18:52:28
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Master Rupert,
Whew! That sounds savage getting spells delivered through bullets! Damn. Bad enough getting shot, to then have a lightning bolt go off too. haha
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 20:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
Whew! That sounds savage getting spells delivered through bullets! Damn. Bad enough getting shot, to then have a lightning bolt go off too. haha
Best regards,
It was only touch spells that could be delivered via bullet... So lightning bolt would be cast normally, but shocking grasp could be delivered via a bullet.
Ray spells could be fired from the gun, though, so it was essentially the same thing.
...And I put everything I could into making sure that when my guy fired his magelock, he hit what he was aiming at. Even, when possible, buffing his Dexterity with a spell, before battle. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Nov 2020 21:00:11 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 21:06:19
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Master Rupert,
Ahhh, gotcha. That makes sense. I've never used firearms in my D&D games, so I just figured you could add in any spell you like to it. That's still pretty awesome though that you can add Shocking Grasp in on it.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 00:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
Ahhh, gotcha. That makes sense. I've never used firearms in my D&D games, so I just figured you could add in any spell you like to it. That's still pretty awesome though that you can add Shocking Grasp in on it.
Best regards,
We were playing Pathfinder rules in the Iron Kingdoms setting. That setting is a mix of steampunk and fantasy -- hence, elements like channeling spells through pistols or having steam-powered robots with magical brains. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 05:22:31
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Master Rupert,
Ahh, that's cool. Out of curiosity. Did you feel that firearms broke the game, or were just underwhelming (on the other side of the spectrum there)?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 05:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
Ahh, that's cool. Out of curiosity. Did you feel that firearms broke the game, or were just underwhelming (on the other side of the spectrum there)?
Best regards,
Neither. Firearms are a part of the Iron Kingdoms setting. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Nov 2020 05:34:45 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 05:47:34
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Master Rupert,
Ahhh. I see. I just looked that up. It looks pretty cool. I had way too much D&D in my mind thinking about that, but after a little bit of a review, I see that the Steampunk aspect appears to round it nicely. All d6 I noticed. Is it like GURPS with all skill based?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 06:53:02
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
Ahhh. I see. I just looked that up. It looks pretty cool. I had way too much D&D in my mind thinking about that, but after a little bit of a review, I see that the Steampunk aspect appears to round it nicely. All d6 I noticed. Is it like GURPS with all skill based?
Best regards,
The original version of the IKRPG was 3E D&D, as I recall, though there were a couple 3.5 products. Then they went their own way; I can't speak on that ruleset. (Their Monsternomicon books were excellent; some of my fave monster books from that era -- they were more like the 2E Monstrous Compendium entries than the "this is a bag of XP and GP" entries that have rule monster books since 3E came out)
We were playing Pathfinder, which is an outgrowth of 3.5.
Now the tabletop minis wargames, Warmachine and Hordes, those are based on 2d6 rules -- but that's wargames, not RPGs. The wargames came first. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Nov 2020 06:56:00 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 14:15:01
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I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.
The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 16:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.
I'd argue that it's sorcerers that are the Swiss Army knives -- if they know a spell, it's always handy. The wizard who loaded up on combat spells, expecting a big fight, is going to be useless when he needs a utility spell he didn't memorize today.
Granted, sorcerers have less spells, so a wizard is more likely to know the most useful spell for a given situation -- but the tradeoff is that the wizard has to be prepared for that situation, and/or that it only happens once.
Wizards dominate when they can properly prepare -- but sorcerers are always prepared, though to a lesser extent. The wizard has a larger toolbox, but he may not have the right tool handy -- the sorcerer has a smaller toolbox, but all of his tools are always readily at hand.
Actually, wizards remind me of Batman. Batman fans will go on and on, at length, about how he can beat anyone at all, given time to prepare. And whether or not that's true, it doesn't change the fact that other supers always have their full suite of powers handy, and that an unprepared Batman will be in trouble. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Nov 2020 16:25:05 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 17:38:27
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Senior Scribe Delnyn,
quote:
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.
Well, I do agree with you there. That's why I've argued that the overall qualities (as I mentioned earlier regarding Shoon VII) are not just combat prowess. His capacity to project power based on his qualities as an insanely powerful wizard, coupled with his being arguably the most powerful demi-lich of all of them, makes him incredibly powerful.
However, I've argued (likely that you've seen) that divination is the most powerful of all schools of magic. There's a reason why Halruaa has continued to have Netyarch's who are diviner's time and again.
I mean, if you always know what's up, you can just avoid or control things until the right time to strike comes about.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 17:54:49
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Master Rupert,
I will say, as it appeared you were arguing for, that if an equal level diviner and sorcerer got into an instant fight, I think that sorcerer would likely clean up, unless that diviner could escape first. Though, after that, that sorcerer would be screwed with that diviner wanting some healthy revenge.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 18:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I will say, as it appeared you were arguing for, that if an equal level diviner and sorcerer got into an instant fight, I think that sorcerer would likely clean up, unless that diviner could escape first. Though, after that, that sorcerer would be screwed with that diviner wanting some healthy revenge.
Best regards,
I wasn't addressing diviners specifically. And a wizard prepped for a fight will easily take a sorcerer.
My point is that wizards have to put a lot more effort into preparation, and that can be a huge drawback. It can be an advantage, too, but I'd rather be a sorcerer and not have to guess correctly to be effective. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 05:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.
The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)
Would he be annoyed, or would he be intrigued that a mortal had so creatively reinterpreted the rules of divinatory magic.
Then the next thing anyone knows, Savras's next duel with Azuth goes a wee bit differently...
Mystra: "Kyah! Az...Azuth-kun!"
Velsharoon: "Sasuga, Savras-dono."
Savras: "XDXDXDXD...now, I think I'm going to have a nice chat with Sylune..."
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Edited by - LordofBones on 29 Nov 2020 05:06:31 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 15:54:54
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Savras would pointedly ask the proposed caster if he checked for gas reservoirs under the surface or exposing Underdark portals that connect to the Abyss. (A hook to OoTA). I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.
That hypothetical rematch between Azuth and Savras and chat with Sylune amused me. Picturing Savras wreaking more annihilation than the tarrasque with Locate City Bomb on whim demand.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.
The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)
Would he be annoyed, or would he be intrigued that a mortal had so creatively reinterpreted the rules of divinatory magic.
Then the next thing anyone knows, Savras's next duel with Azuth goes a wee bit differently...
Mystra: "Kyah! Az...Azuth-kun!"
Velsharoon: "Sasuga, Savras-dono."
Savras: "XDXDXDXD...now, I think I'm going to have a nice chat with Sylune..."
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Who is the best spellcaster in the realms
