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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 22:27:29
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Greetings, honored scribes,
Sorry if this seems to be beating a (very) dead horse, but I was looking through some of the old threads about the whole Silver Marches / Hunter's Blades rigmarole, and a thought occured to me:
Cannot an argument be advanced for a scenario in which the great Orc invasion of RAS's latest series HAS already happened, between 1368-1371 or whatever exact dates people pin it to (and is not discussed much in the SM lore), and the feeling of unease and anticipation that comes across in the campaign setting and the SM book is more of a worry for a BIGGER storm? It seems to me that the orc horde in Hunter's Blades didn't make it much farther than Mithral Hall and the far Northlands.
Once again, I apologize for any who are argued out of this subject -- though if you want to vent further, by all means. :)
m
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 22:44:25
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Oh, I'm sure to an extent that you could argue that. If you think about it, Obould's "horde" only attacked Shallows and Mithril Hall, and it was the trolls that sacked and destroyed Nesme. I think the worry is that now that Obould has his new confederation of orc tribes together that eventually something is going to give.
My main concern with the whole matter is that since RAS didn't seem to see the events that were noted as happening in Silver Marches, and he hasn't resolved what happened between the dwarves and the orcs of Obould's new "nation," I'm just concerned that he will resolve this, get rid of Obould or some such, and it will all have happend long before the Silver Marches sourcebook's date, which would really confuse things.
The feeling that I get from Alustriel's actions in both the novels and the sourcebook, and the thing that gives me some hope that the resolution to this storyline won't invalidate other Realmslore, is that Alustriel would rather Obould continued "civilizing" his orcs and become a true nation, a country that could be delt with rather than a horde of invaders that must be repelled. Of course, she seems a little reserved about mentioning this to the dwarves in the book though.
The scene were Alustriel is discussing things with Bruenor and the representitives from Felbar and Adbar gave me some hope that we would have a hint of the Silver Marches being formed, but it didn't happen.
At one point in time, I was thinking that I understood that the Silver Marches book happened without RAS knowing what was going on, which is why nothing in his books reflects the prospective forming of that nation, but then I had forgotten that the North boxed set was actually the first time that the Silver Marches (under a different name) was mentioned, which means RAS actually had a while to find out about this development.
My main issue that I worry about is that every other author, including Ed Greenwood, is usually expected to reshape whatever happens in their latest novels to deal with things that have been set forth in existing Realmslore, sometimes having to explain seemingly contradictory things in a given region to make sense. I don't mean this as an insult, but I worry that RAS, as the big money maker, gets to write whatever he wants to (within reason, don't over apply that comment), and the Realmslore has to change to fit it, which would give his fiction more weight than other authors, not something you really want in a shared world setting, especially since the only person who should have "overreaching" writing concessions should be Ed.
But all of this is just my two coppers
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 22:46:21
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Nope.
Obould's listed as having aspirations for invading, and Hunter's Blades would have sated those. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 23:17:56
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True, but the timelines are a little foggy. I totally agree with KEJR. RAS might have the magical leeway as the biggest money make for FR fiction. I think the sourcebooks might actually bend around his stories. I mean, no matter how you feel about Mr. Do'urden, he brings in the cash - and cash does wicked things to the hearts of men  .
That's my two cents.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Thysl
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 23:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Nope.
Obould's listed as having aspirations for invading, and Hunter's Blades would have sated those.
Oh no, my dear, yon orc has a mean and hungry look...
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There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.
--Carl Jung |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 23:55:14
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Thanks for commenting, honored masters and mistresses.
Particular thanks for KEJR's detailed commentary. I was worried this would open a huge can of worms.
quote:
Originally posted by Thysl
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Nope.
Obould's listed as having aspirations for invading, and Hunter's Blades would have sated those.
Oh no, my dear, yon orc has a mean and hungry look...
And I was going to say that, almost exactly. 
My thinking is that the events of the tHB trilogy would only have sated Obould for so long -- he does seem to understand the basics of economics and running a kingdom, and the intervening years (1371 to whenever) might be just a resting period while he builds up his strength. In the meantime, he establishes more of a foothold in the North. . .
Yeah, I see things as shaping up fairly reasonably, given the SM lore.
Maybe what they could use is a Frozen North supplement, an accessory that covers Icewind Dale and the lands of the Horde. . .
Hmm. Just thoughts.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 00:01:55
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I am guessing that they may have learned their lesson from what happened here, and may not have any updated sourcebooks in the region until RAS finishes the situation (although he has been quoted as saying that the situation is resolved, Obould has a kingdom, Silverymoon and Felbar are helping Bruenor get his shipments out, alls well with the world).
Who knows how far into the future this will hold. Silver Marches is now technically discontinued, though I doubt from a product schedule point of view it makes sense to print another sourcebook on the region this soon after the first one.
Keep in mind hanging plotlines, such as wars and their aftermath, have a precedent for laying unresolved for long periods of time. On another thread we were just talking about the war in Amn and the aftermath, which has lain more or less unresolved since the Lands of Intrigue set came out. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 00:22:57
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But Obould doesn't really have a kingdom. I mean, most of his orcs ran away when they thought him dead. Plus, while the orcs are in disarray, they may be attack and separated. I think it's supposed to be resolved in the fact that the orc horde is broken and beaten.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 01:08:36
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| The "Kingdom of Dark Arrows" still exists. The horde did not disband, nor are they broken and beaten. At the end of the trilogy, the orcs were hardening their defenses for the coming winter and are definitely not going anywhere. The humans of the North better get used to their new neighbor. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 02:20:22
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I know, but let's just say it hasn't been mentioned in any sourcebook since, including Players Guide to Faerun, or Champions of Ruin, or any other book that has come out since Two Swords. I just don't think it is meant to stick around all that long.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 04:21:17
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I was just rereading the info on Obould in Silver Marches, and while I think it was pure coincidence, I think it is still possible to reconcile a few things. Nesme was predicted to not last much longer, though the assumption was that it had lasted to that point. The fact that Alustriel wanted to help them and the dwarves were more reticent was also interesting, and could be massaged into working out.
As far as Obould, the Kingdom of Many Arrows, and his aspirations, it says that he is waiting for a larger horde to sweep in and weaken the Silver Marches. You could take this to mean that Obould recovered a lot, but not all, of his orcs after his perceived "death." I think, somewhere between the Two Swords and Silver Marches, Obould met up with Black Larog and used her diplomacy skills to make sure everyone knew that he was still alive.
So in the end, Obould still has a sizable horde, waiting for another horde to attack the Silver Marches, so he can then sweep in and mop up. I also think that Obould, since he as been a bit of a student of other "civilized" nations, might start sending spies (half-orc or maybe unscrupulous humans) into the Silver Marches, and might even help support another orc warlord to raise a horde that he knows will damage, but not overrun, the Silver Marches.
In short, I'm starting to think that much of this can reconcile between the Hunters Blades and Silver Marches, but I am still nervous that we will get a RAS book set after the Silver Marches should be formed that does not aknowlage its existance, or even does some things that deny its possible existance entirely. But I could be wrong. I'm also still a bit worried about the Gauntlygrim potential issue. Of course, even if the Realmslore ends up holding up, it really is starting to seem cyclical, isn't it (Bruenor rules over a set number of dwarves. Bruenor decides to find old kingdom. Bruenor fights evil in old kingdom. Bruenor refounds old kingdom. Bruenor gets tired of new kingdom, starts looking for old kingdom to liberate/refound/get tired of).
Still, I like the fact that we can all get together to brainstorm these things, since it forces me to look back at things I may have forgotten, and I get some other perspectives on how things were phrased immediately. I would just love for some author to mention the Silver Marches and Mithral Hall's place in them in a book. It would make it feel a bit more "solid" to me then. Rich Baker kind of skirted Mithril Hall when he mentioned Silverymoon's forces in Forsaken House. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 22 Oct 2005 04:22:00 |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 17:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Still, I like the fact that we can all get together to brainstorm these things, since it forces me to look back at things I may have forgotten, and I get some other perspectives on how things were phrased immediately. I would just love for some author to mention the Silver Marches and Mithral Hall's place in them in a book. It would make it feel a bit more "solid" to me then. Rich Baker kind of skirted Mithril Hall when he mentioned Silverymoon's forces in Forsaken House.
Maybe some new threat to the North, even greater than the Orc hordes? Maybe where the orcs and humans/elves/dwarves need to unite to fight it back? I would read such a book.
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 17:32:00
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Well lets also not omit the Trolls of the Evermoors, they played a pivotal part of the sacking of Nesme, and in Streams of Silver it was commented several times that the trolls attacked as if a will other than their own drove them to it.
If the moors or the trolls extended their influence north and managed to establish a zone of control that extends to the southern edges of the mountains Silverymoon, Nesme, and even Luskan would all feel the pinch, not to mention giving Obould a pathway into the deeper heartlands of the Realms. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 21:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Well lets also not omit the Trolls of the Evermoors, they played a pivotal part of the sacking of Nesme, and in Streams of Silver it was commented several times that the trolls attacked as if a will other than their own drove them to it.
If the moors or the trolls extended their influence north and managed to establish a zone of control that extends to the southern edges of the mountains Silverymoon, Nesme, and even Luskan would all feel the pinch, not to mention giving Obould a pathway into the deeper heartlands of the Realms.
As far as I know the trolls have been kicked out by a lot of cloud giants(both good and evil) who think that settling in the evermoors is an excellent idea. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 22:06:57
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quote:
Who knows how far into the future this will hold. Silver Marches is now technically discontinued, though I doubt from a product schedule point of view it makes sense to print another sourcebook on the region this soon after the first one.
Do we need a "Silver Marches 2" or do we need an "Icewind Dale" sourcebook? You know, one to cover the NORTH-north. Everything west, north, and a little east of the Silver Marches.
As I envision it, we've got all of Obould's "Kingdom of Many Arrows" to do, a lot of Uthgardt (who doesn't love the barbarians, hey?), Icewind Dale itself, and more of the Frozen North. What about that priestess of Auril and her ice castle (you know, the really high level one)?
I'd go for such a sourcebook.
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 22:18:10
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Dunno, hard to think that the giants would be happy in a lowland marsh, and it isn't that hard to rebuild an army of trolls, line 'em up and start chopping off fingers twice a day.
Each troll has 10 digits, times 2 times a day, exponential growth, methinks they could come back in force quickly. |
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Silver Marches, Orc hordes, and the Future
