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The Freak
Acolyte
3 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 08:28:03
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Greetings, everyone, can I know the story behind Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal ascension to power before the Time of Troubles, for I lacked the neccesary books to find it, so any takes behind their ascension is greatly appreciated.
Also, why was Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything and rumored co-head of the Pantheon that time grew so bored that he willingly give up his position and portfolios?
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The raging freak is an unstoppable force... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 09:00:50
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The 2e Faiths & Avatars tome has the details -- there's a tiny box with some info about this just before Bane's write-up.
Basically, the story itself centers around how three extremely powerful mortals -- these being the soon-to-be-gods Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul -- joined together in an alliance in an attempt to seize Jergal's divine position and power. It is said that the three mortals searched extensively for powerful magic for many years which would assist them in their efforts. It was only after the discovery and destruction of one of the Seven Lost Gods that the three were able to take some of this divine essence which they would need when they began their assault on Jergal and his domain. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul fought against significant numbers of undead until they finally reached Jergal. It was at this point that Jergal made the decision to stand down from his position -- which was quite a shock to the three assembled mortals. After this, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul began sharing out Jergal's seized power between themselves, in addition to Jergal's portfolio.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 16:46:35
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Doesn't that seem a little too easy, though? I wonder what secrets the grasshopper (as I refer to Jergal) has...
Why would he bother defending himself with hordes of underlings to finally just say, "Oh, it's cool, man... take my portfolio, it was getting boring." I wonder if we'll ever be told if it was Jergal's choice or if it may be some directive of Ao.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 16:48:33
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| There's a little more in Faith & Pantheons near the back where the details of Borum's dagger is located. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 19:08:42
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You even can read the story in Baldur's Gate and Shadows of Amn is one of the books you find along the game but damn I can't remember the name right now... The story if I recall correctly explain how Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul didn't agree in who of them would rule so they decided to seize Jergal's power. They played a game (wich name I can't recall), to see who of them would be the first in choosing, and this is how they decided to rule. In this story is said Jergal was quite bored of his domain, and that he stayed with them to aid them in their new portfolios. I think Malar was mentioned too, but it was a long time ago since I played the games... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 15 Oct 2005 19:12:08 |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 20:24:58
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History of the Dead Three: 'KNUCKLEBONES, SKULL BOWLING, AND THE EMPTY THRONE' (From the BG Games)
In ages past there was but one god of strife, death, and the dead, and he was known as Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything. Jergal fomented and fed on the discord among mortals and powers alike. When beings slew each other in their quest for power or in their hatred, he welcomed them into his shadowy kingdom of eternal gloom. As all things died, everything came to him eventually, and over time he built his power into a kingdom unchallenged by any other god. Eventually, however, he grew tired of his duties for he knew them too well. Without challenge there is nothing, and in nothingness there is only gloom. In such a state, the difference between absolute power and absolute powerlessness is undetectable.
During this dark era, there arose three powerful mortals - Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul - who lusted after the power Jergal wielded. The trio forged an unholy pact, agreeing that they would dare to seek such ultimate power or die in the attempt. Over the length and breadth of the Realms they strode, seeking powerful magic and spells and defying death at every turn. No matter what monster they confronted or what spells they braved, the three mortals emerged unscathed at every turn. Eventually the trio destroyed one of the Seven Lost Gods, and they each seized a portion of his divine essence for themselves.
The trio then journeyed into the Gray Waste and sought out the Castle of Bone. Through armies of skeletons, legions of zombies, hordes of noncorporeal undead, and a gauntlet of liches they battled. Eventually they reached the object of their lifelong quest - the Bone Throne.
"I claim this throne of evil," shouted Bane the tyrant. "I'll destroy you before you can raise a finger," threatened Bhaal the assassin. "And I shall imprison your essence for eternity," promised Myrkul the necromancer.
Jergal arose from his throne with a weary expression and said, "The Throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish - I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the position." Before the stunned trio could react, the Lord of the Dead continued: "Who among you shall rule?"
The trio immediately fell to fighting amongst themselves while Jergal looked on with indifference. When eventually it appeared that either they would all die of exhaustion or battle on for an eternity, the Lord of the End of Everything intervened. "After all you have sacrificed, would you come away with nothing? Why don't you divide the portfolios of the office and engage in a game of skill for them?" asked Jergal.
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul considered the god's offer and agreed. Jergal took the heads of his three most powerful liches and gave them to the trio that they would compete by bowling the skulls. Each mortal rolled a skull across the Gray Waste, having agreed that the winner would be he who bowled the farthest.
Malar the Beastlord arrived to visit Jergal at this moment. After quickly ascertaining that the winner of the contest would get all of Jergal's power, he chased off after the three skulls to make sure that the contest would be halted until he had a chance to participate for part of the prize. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul again fell to fighting as it was obvious their sport was ruined, and again Jergal intervened. "Why don't you allow Lady Luck to decide so you don't have to share with the Beast?"
The trio agreed, and Jergal broke off his skeletal finger bones and gave them to the players. When Malar returned from chasing the skulls, he found that the trio had just finished a game of knucklebones.
Bane cried out triumphantly, "As winner, I choose to rule for all eternity as the ultimate tyrant. I can induce hatred and strife at my whim, and all will bow down before me while in my kingdom."
Myrkul, who had won second place, declared, "But I choose the dead, and by doing so I truly win, because all you are lord over, Bane, will eventually be mine. All things must die - even gods."
Bhaal, who finished third, demurred, "I choose death, and it is by my hand that all that you rule Lord Bane will eventually pass to Lord Myrkul. Both of you must pay honor to me and obey my wishes, since I can destroy your kingdom, Bane, by murdering your subjects, and I can starve your kingdom, Myrkul, by staying my hand."
Malar growled in frustration, but could do nothing, and yet again only the beasts were left for him.
And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered.
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 21:38:36
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Perfect!! Good one Magnífico! |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 05:34:01
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Doesn't that seem a little too easy, though? I wonder what secrets the grasshopper (as I refer to Jergal) has...
Why would he bother defending himself with hordes of underlings to finally just say, "Oh, it's cool, man... take my portfolio, it was getting boring."
C-Fb
That's a good point! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 06:26:01
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Doesn't that seem a little too easy, though? I wonder what secrets the grasshopper (as I refer to Jergal) has...
Why would he bother defending himself with hordes of underlings to finally just say, "Oh, it's cool, man... take my portfolio, it was getting boring." I wonder if we'll ever be told if it was Jergal's choice or if it may be some directive of Ao.
C-Fb
We don't know that it was an active defense... Jergal could've placed those defenders around his palace seven millenia before Bane & friends ever walked the Realms, with standing orders to defend as long as they could.
Also, the defense could have been a test -- if they could get thru it, they were worthy. If not, they weren't worthy and it's a good thing they're gone now. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 06:36:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Doesn't that seem a little too easy, though? I wonder what secrets the grasshopper (as I refer to Jergal) has...
Why would he bother defending himself with hordes of underlings to finally just say, "Oh, it's cool, man... take my portfolio, it was getting boring." I wonder if we'll ever be told if it was Jergal's choice or if it may be some directive of Ao.
C-Fb
We don't know that it was an active defense... Jergal could've placed those defenders around his palace seven millenia before Bane & friends ever walked the Realms, with standing orders to defend as long as they could.
Also, the defense could have been a test -- if they could get thru it, they were worthy. If not, they weren't worthy and it's a good thing they're gone now.
Good points, all. But then again, if he tested "The Three", I guess that would mean he didn't feel such apathy about the situation after all... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 08:38:59
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The story strongly suggests that Jergal was ready to pass on his portfolios to someone else. One might infer he was weary and posessed of a deep ennui.
My pet theory though is that it was a calculated ploy to surrender his portfolio of Dusk. As Eric Boyd has intimated, the sun god in Faerûn seems to manifest as cyclical incarnations of a dawn aspect, a noon aspect, and a dusk aspect. Each aspect holds prominence for a time, and then dies off, and the one waiting in the wings becomes prominent for awhile before the next aspect is born.
Amaunator, the last noon aspect of the sun, faded from power after the fall of Netheril. When he died, Lathander the Morninglord was born (or arose somehow) to take Amaunator's place. As holder of the dusk portfolio, Jergal's power was on the rise in those post-Netherese days.
But even as his power waxed to it's greatest point, he knew that his time would one day come to an end and he would have to die. By passing on his portfolio of Dusk, he could break out of the cycle and avoid his own fate.
Myrkul got the portfolio of dusk and was killed in Jergal's stead. I think it possible that that was Jergal's intent all along, to have Myrkul take his fall for him.
Now perhaps Jergal has settled into his lesser role as seneschal of the dead and likes it just fine. Maybe he has no greater aspirations. However, I would not be surprised at all if Jergal had a long term plan to reassume the dusk portfolio and resume his position as a greater god some day now that Myrkul is dead.
Only time will tell if Jergal will remain comfortable as Kelemvor's seneschal or if Jergal has greater ambitions.
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2010 : 20:33:08
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One of my Realmsian pet projects has been determining exactly when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended to divinity (and when the Dawn Cataclysm happened, and the two may be connected). A recent post in another scroll ("Was Bhaal right for the Moonshae Trilogy?") by Thauramarth inspired me to revisit this, so I'm resurrecting this 4.5-year-old scroll that seems to tie into my thoughts on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I was inserting the timeline for the Moonshae trilogy from the Forgotten Realms Atlas in my overall FR timeline documents, and all of a sudden, I had an epiphany. <snip> ... if we want to get historical, if Kazgoroth was ever affiliated with Bhaal, Bhaal must have become a deity prior to 201 DR, when Cymrych High cleaned Kazgoroth's clock, and my gut feeling has always been that the ascension of Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul had not yet occurred at that time (and let's not revisit that particular discussion, shall we?)
<chop>
At Thauramarth's request, I'm not revisiting this particular discussion in his scroll, so I'm reposting this reply to this scroll which is more appropriate.
What follows are my point-form musings on the subject
- timeframe for Dawn Cataclysm:
- - claiming that the event happens outside the timestream amounts to calling it an in-universe retcon; that would make it not a change, but the way things have always been, but we know that Amaunator was around before Lathander, so the event must have a specific definable time of occurrence;
- - fact: it happens before Azuth ascends to divinity;
- - strong suspicion: Azuth ascends to divinity in 136 DR (the year of ascension of the first Magister named in "Secrets of the Magister"; it could be earlier, but we know it happens after the Year of Sundered Webs, because his superior is named as Mystra, not Mystryl);
- - strong suspicion following from this: the Dawn Cataclysm happens in and/or just after the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR), while the Torilian pantheon is reeling from the death of Mystryl and ascension of Mystra, the death of Karsus, and (likely) the deaths of other forgotten lesser powers;
- Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul: year of ascension to divinity:
- - fact: the Dark Three destroyed Borem in the Year of Boiling Moats (-359 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three defeated Haask and Hargut in the Year of Craven Words (-350 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three entered the Gray Waste and the Castle of Bone to claim the Bone Throne from Jergal some time (but probably not a great deal of time) after this;
- - speculation: the Dark Three likely ascended either just before or just after the fall of Netheril in the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR);
So, to respond to Thauramarth, yes, Bhaal was very likely a deity before 201 DR... maybe not *long* before, but it's certainly possible.
If anyone has anything else in the way of Realmslore evidence that I'm missing in my theory, please let me know. I'm using Google and what few pre-3E PDFs I have to do my old-lore research at the moment, so omissions are very likely to occur.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2010 : 21:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
One of my Realmsian pet projects has been determining exactly when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended to divinity (and when the Dawn Cataclysm happened, and the two may be connected). A recent post in another scroll ("Was Bhaal right for the Moonshae Trilogy?") by Thauramarth inspired me to revisit this, so I'm resurrecting this 4.5-year-old scroll that seems to tie into my thoughts on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I was inserting the timeline for the Moonshae trilogy from the Forgotten Realms Atlas in my overall FR timeline documents, and all of a sudden, I had an epiphany. <snip> ... if we want to get historical, if Kazgoroth was ever affiliated with Bhaal, Bhaal must have become a deity prior to 201 DR, when Cymrych High cleaned Kazgoroth's clock, and my gut feeling has always been that the ascension of Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul had not yet occurred at that time (and let's not revisit that particular discussion, shall we?)
<chop>
At Thauramarth's request, I'm not revisiting this particular discussion in his scroll, so I'm reposting this reply to this scroll which is more appropriate.
What follows are my point-form musings on the subject
- timeframe for Dawn Cataclysm:
- - claiming that the event happens outside the timestream amounts to calling it an in-universe retcon; that would make it not a change, but the way things have always been, but we know that Amaunator was around before Lathander, so the event must have a specific definable time of occurrence;
- - fact: it happens before Azuth ascends to divinity;
- - strong suspicion: Azuth ascends to divinity in 136 DR (the year of ascension of the first Magister named in "Secrets of the Magister"; it could be earlier, but we know it happens after the Year of Sundered Webs, because his superior is named as Mystra, not Mystryl);
- - strong suspicion following from this: the Dawn Cataclysm happens in and/or just after the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR), while the Torilian pantheon is reeling from the death of Mystryl and ascension of Mystra, the death of Karsus, and (likely) the deaths of other forgotten lesser powers;
- Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul: year of ascension to divinity:
- - fact: the Dark Three destroyed Borem in the Year of Boiling Moats (-359 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three defeated Haask and Hargut in the Year of Craven Words (-350 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three entered the Gray Waste and the Castle of Bone to claim the Bone Throne from Jergal some time (but probably not a great deal of time) after this;
- - speculation: the Dark Three likely ascended either just before or just after the fall of Netheril in the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR);
So, to respond to Thauramarth, yes, Bhaal was very likely a deity before 201 DR... maybe not *long* before, but it's certainly possible.
If anyone has anything else in the way of Realmslore evidence that I'm missing in my theory, please let me know. I'm using Google and what few pre-3E PDFs I have to do my old-lore research at the moment, so omissions are very likely to occur.
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 01:23:28
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Based on some *facts,*, various possible dates have been thrown into the debate. It was dated once [161 DR], in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed [and now largely ignored] "Netheril Timeline" handout as I recall. Another possibility suggests that it occurred somewhere between 700 DR and 712 DR.
However, it's been said that Tyche division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. Which is partly why I'm not really a proponent of this theory anymore. I don't believe we should be reading too much into this. In fact, I think it may mean exactly what it means. After all, Krash did personally re-write that particular section in the FRCS. And before the re-write, that section was ALL about the DC. But because the designers didn't want to ruin the endless debates and threads that were to come, they changed it a little and wrote it up differently.
A third option, and the one I had previously been leaning toward, is the theory put forth by Eric Boyd. He first suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be properly dated. [But, unlike Wooly, I think the "outside of time" theory still has some validity. And any Doctor Who can appreciate how such thinking can be applied to the concept of the space-time continuum in the Realms.]
My current theory however, based on some recent private communications with an FR designer, suggests it may have occurred somewhere in the period between 200 and 400 DR. With the actual ramifications of the event starting around two or three centuries later -- about the time of Myth Drannor's fall. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 04:46:28
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Well, my biggest reason for putting it in the 700-712 timeframe is the schism in Tyche's church. We've seen some of the games deities play against each other. To me, there is no conceivable reason that the schism wouldn't immediately follow Tyche's split. Even for deities, three centuries is a long time to wait before establishing your own separate identity. I can't see a deity -- particularly Beshaba -- waiting a year before saying she was no longer Tyche, much less a century.
And while I know that there's really nothing that says Tyche's split was a result of the DC, we do know it happened during the DC.
And that's why I'm quite comfortable with sticking with 700-712, or 700-714, as the timeframe. Any other time we pick goes against multiple facts -- the 700-712(714) guesstimate only goes against one fact. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 05:44:53
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| I'm content with either interpretation, really. And I've suggested both in my Realms. Your position, and the possibility that the split occurred much earlier -- taking awhile for this knowledge to disseminate and propagate among Tyche's faithful. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 11:32:16
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| There is of course, the possibility that the Dawn Cataclysm and its setting in the timeline are a fluke, along the lines of the "Kingdom of Impiltur" being founded in the 900s, and the Obarskyrs coming from Impiltur to Cormyr in 26. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 11:41:14
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The Priesthoods at the time could have tried to suppress all knowledge of it. I find it an interesting concept. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 12:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Priesthoods at the time could have tried to suppress all knowledge of it. I find it an interesting concept.
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity?  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Apr 2010 12:01:33 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 13:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Priesthoods at the time could have tried to suppress all knowledge of it. I find it an interesting concept.
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity?
Maybe the liquidation of the common assets dragged on in court ("I want custody of the dog!"). |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 13:44:29
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Stranger things have been known to happen. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 18:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity?
Different roads to the same destination.
I imagine both churches would make every effort to conceal the fact they were once the "same" church.
The Tymorans would certainly never want to be associated with an evil deity and church (even the insinuation could be considered blasphemous to their faith).
The Beshabans likely had the same reasons (not wanting to be associated with a bunch of happy-goody-two-shoes). |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 22:34:59
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Right.
It could have taken the Clergy awhile to figure out what had happened.
Then came the split.(I have a dirty mind! )
After all who can really know the mind of the Divine.
Who knows...
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 12 Apr 2010 22:35:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2010 : 00:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity?
Different roads to the same destination.
I imagine both churches would make every effort to conceal the fact they were once the "same" church.
The Tymorans would certainly never want to be associated with an evil deity and church (even the insinuation could be considered blasphemous to their faith).
The Beshabans likely had the same reasons (not wanting to be associated with a bunch of happy-goody-two-shoes).
Exactly. Plus both deities are particularly known for interacting with their followers -- not necessarily popping in for tea every third day, but at least actively influencing the lives of those who call on/spurn them. With their enmity for each other and the way they interact with their followers, I'm thinking that within months of the split, the churches were beginning to schism. It's the only thing that tracks with what we know. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2010 : 01:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
There is of course, the possibility that the Dawn Cataclysm and its setting in the timeline are a fluke, along the lines of the "Kingdom of Impiltur" being founded in the 900s, and the Obarskyrs coming from Impiltur to Cormyr in 26.
Impiltur was easy to fix. The DC? Not so much.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2010 : 05:03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
There is of course, the possibility that the Dawn Cataclysm and its setting in the timeline are a fluke, along the lines of the "Kingdom of Impiltur" being founded in the 900s, and the Obarskyrs coming from Impiltur to Cormyr in 26.
Impiltur was easy to fix. The DC? Not so much.
-- George Krashos
I wish I'd noticed that I had two related discussions happening in two completely separate scrolls. The following is from this scroll:
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 04:56:43
The Dusk portfolio was Myrkul's, yes, but the timeline doesn't add up.
Fall of Netheril (Year of Sundered Webs, -339 DR): Amaunator begins to fade; Lathander apparently rises to pre-eminence in his place.
ToT (Year of Shadows, 1358 DR): Myrkul dies, having apparently never held equivalent status to Amaunator or Lathander... although the year name is appropriate in that sense.
After the fall of Netheril, we have dawn succeeding highsun. That doesn't happen unless the natural order has been mucked around with. Amaunator succeeding Lathander is a naturally expected succession based on how the world (regardless of which one) works; highsun follows dawn. The apparent "skipping over" of Myrkul in the published lore from the period following Netheril's fall (which only references Amaunator and Lathander) suggests to me that the Dawn Cataclysm can be placed within the timestream, and that one of its consequences was the "dusk-free day" when the rightful place of Dusk (and Myrkul) in the cycle of the trio was usurped by Dawn (and Lathander). This might also have to do with the timing of the Dark Three's ascension to divinity, as well; if the Dark Three ascended after the Year of Sundered Webs, Jergal may have simply refused to step in as the Lord of Dusk after Amaunator's fall, thus precipitating both the Dawn Cataclysm and the ascension of the Dark Three; Jergal seems to have had enough of his jobs at that time by all of the accounts we have available to us.
Hopefully I've explained myself adequately here; the bit about the Dark Three was something of an epiphany as I was typing... and it just occurred to me now that this might be the other side of the origin of the name "Dark Three"... they are, in some ways literally, the Children of Dusk, even though only Myrkul succeeded to that particular portfolio. To summarize:
1) Amaunator falls with the collapse of Netheril;
2) Jergal in his ennui declines to ascend as the Lord of Dusk;
3) Lathander, the Morninglord, ascends out of sequence, causing (in some way) the Dawn Cataclysm;
4) The mortals who would become the Dark Three find Jergal and claim their prizes, but too late to preserve the natural order and prevent the Dawn Cataclysm.
These events happen over the course of several years, I would assume; from what I've read, Amaunator's fall was very gradual, not sudden, and it was only Lathander's ascension that was in any way abrupt or immediate in its effects.
...and even Lathander's ascension can be seen as gradual, as pointed out by The Sage... whose revised timeline fits well with my theory as well...
Anyway, make of this what you will, fellow scribes; I personally think it's a masterpiece on a theoretical level, but I wasn't able to fact-check it thoroughly due to my current absence from sources pre-3E apart from the Grand History. 
I'm particularly interested in GK's thoughts on this idea, and if any of you have past lore citations that I may not have taken into account with this, let me know. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2010 : 06:38:41
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GK is reading this with interest, never fear.
So much so that I'm really tempted to give the "DC" a go. That said, any write-up I did would still leave enough FR wiggle room for writers to make of it what they want. I'm a big believer in "sages say", "most loremasters agree", "it would appear that ..." etc.
I did some lore connection jottings the other day on some of the more interesting lore points along the way and realised that like the invasion of Russia, this might get a lot bigger than I thought at first instance.
I'll keep you posted.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 01:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
GK is reading this with interest, never fear.
So much so that I'm really tempted to give the "DC" a go. That said, any write-up I did would still leave enough FR wiggle room for writers to make of it what they want. I'm a big believer in "sages say", "most loremasters agree", "it would appear that ..." etc.
I'm a big fan of this approach too... it probably has to do with my solidly Empiricist philosophical leanings; the Scientific Method is the best tool we have, but all it can give us is what might be true until new evidence comes along to refute it. That's why I'd like NDAs to loosen up over time. Even if the publisher still has plans for the lore or the object thereof, letting a few teasers slip every decade or so only helps build interest.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I did some lore connection jottings the other day on some of the more interesting lore points along the way and realised that like the invasion of Russia, this might get a lot bigger than I thought at first instance.
I'll keep you posted.
-- George Krashos
Bigger... how so? A broader time frame, more involved parties, wider-reaching effects, some other dimension (possibly literally on that score) or some combination of the above?
Interest has been piqued... and I have another development for you; see the "Pyramids of Ascore" scroll in a few minutes for details. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 17:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR.
I'm getting reacquainted with the points cited above... and I was always aware of the first point (re: Myth Drannor), but I don't recall ever reading anything specific about that connection; was there something about the Dawn Cataclysm that made the Fall of Myth Drannor (a) possible or (b) necessary, and if so, where's the lore? I'm slogging through older PDFs right now, but it's slow going; I read much more quickly on paper (take that how you will), but I'm not going to print out PDFs just because I don't have my originals with me. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 18:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR.
I'm getting reacquainted with the points cited above... and I was always aware of the first point (re: Myth Drannor), but I don't recall ever reading anything specific about that connection; was there something about the Dawn Cataclysm that made the Fall of Myth Drannor (a) possible or (b) necessary, and if so, where's the lore? I'm slogging through older PDFs right now, but it's slow going; I read much more quickly on paper (take that how you will), but I'm not going to print out PDFs just because I don't have my originals with me.
There's no definite connection between the two, just passing references that say the DC presaged or heralded the fall of Myth Drannor. I'll be dipped if I can find any of the "presaged" references right now, but Faiths & Avatars says "heralded" three times -- like in this line from page 166, under Tymora's entry: "Tymora inherited Tyche’s grace and kindness when that goddess split into two beings in the Dawn Cataclysm, a war among the gods that long preceded the Time of Troubles and is said to have heralded the fall of Myth Drannor." The other two references in that tome say much the same thing.
The schism in the church is from the 3E FRCS, page 264. That source also says the DC may be linked to other events in that same time frame, such as the founding of the Harpers (the meeting in the Dancing Place was in 720 DR), the fall of the second Untheric empire (680 DR), and the arrival of Xvim in Westgate (710 DR). |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Apr 2010 18:17:33 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 02:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR.
I'm getting reacquainted with the points cited above... and I was always aware of the first point (re: Myth Drannor), but I don't recall ever reading anything specific about that connection; was there something about the Dawn Cataclysm that made the Fall of Myth Drannor (a) possible or (b) necessary, and if so, where's the lore? I'm slogging through older PDFs right now, but it's slow going; I read much more quickly on paper (take that how you will), but I'm not going to print out PDFs just because I don't have my originals with me.
There's no definite connection between the two, just passing references that say the DC presaged or heralded the fall of Myth Drannor. I'll be dipped if I can find any of the "presaged" references right now, but Faiths & Avatars says "heralded" three times -- like in this line from page 166, under Tymora's entry: "Tymora inherited Tyche’s grace and kindness when that goddess split into two beings in the Dawn Cataclysm, a war among the gods that long preceded the Time of Troubles and is said to have heralded the fall of Myth Drannor." The other two references in that tome say much the same thing.
I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "
This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal ascension to power
