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Originally posted by The Sage

I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "

This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, I get all that, but I'm simply not seeing how we can make any kind of connection betwixt Myth Drannor and the DC if the former wasn't around during the latter.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by The Sage

I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "

This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.

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You know, I get all that, but I'm simply not seeing how we can make any kind of connection betwixt Myth Drannor and the DC if the former wasn't around during the latter.

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Originally posted by Jakk


I lost track of this scroll for a couple of days... some interesting arguments have been made... and I have an answer for Wooly, basically just rewording what The Sage has already said, I think: The Dawn Cataclysm may have presaged the fall of Myth Drannor in the sense that it was the catalyst for a vaguely-worded prophecy about "a war between the gods heralding the fall of a great realm of unity" ... or something to that effect. Just because Myth Drannor may not have been around yet, doesn't mean it couldn't have been the subject of a vaguely-worded prophecy that turned out true. Since we're talking about Myth Drannor, there's the prophecy about the good red dragon that caused the release of the nycaloths, as just one other example. IRL, look at how vague Nostradamus' writings are, and how many of them have been matched with actual historical events. The key to being a good prophet is the ability to be meaningfully vague.

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Originally posted by Jakk

Edit: Also... what if the event that caused Tyche's sundering happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, but her actual sundering took years, or even centuries, to complete? We're talking about splitting a god in two, not combining a little bit of one god and a little bit of another to make a third. (btw, I'm talking about Selune, Shar, and Mystryl, not divine reproductive biology)

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Originally posted by The Sage
<snip>
I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "

This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

<chop>

Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.

We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
<snip>

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Originally posted by Brimstone

Didn't Cyric smack Mystra with a stick? Well the rest is history as they say

Thats right, its a metaphor.

Maybe we shouldn't be so literal with what we read about the Gods and their interactions with each other. Maybe Selune zapping Tyche was a metaphorical event.

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