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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 21:45:19
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I am thinking in the creation of a char, indeed the same Thelonius of thy avatar, and I want to make him a young drow. But I don't really know at wich age an elf is a teenager. 20 years? 80? 100? I remember in NWN setting the 18 human years as 120 of an elf. in fact, is there any elvish-human ratio? Suppousing the elvish and the drow aging speed is the same.
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"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 22:31:08
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The Drow age faster then the fair elves in prior editions. 67 or so instead of 120 is one I seem to recall. Some look to Drow being fully functional at about age 20 as an adult.
3.5 SRD has Elf Adult age at 110
Human age 15.
SRD does not indicate a different rate of maturity. And many do default to "fair elf" aging. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 05:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The Drow age faster then the fair elves in prior editions. 67 or so instead of 120 is one I seem to recall. Some look to Drow being fully functional at about age 20 as an adult.
3.5 SRD has Elf Adult age at 110
Human age 15.
SRD does not indicate a different rate of maturity. And many do default to "fair elf" aging.
The PGtF defaults to the same single starting age for all elves, so that's the official ruling right now... |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 07:54:37
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| Uhmmm, a teenager drow, for example 15 years on human standard age, would be 110 years old? |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 08 Oct 2005 08:21:08 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 08:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Uhmmm, a teenager drow, for example 15 years on human standard age, would be 110 years old?
If you use the rules presented in the 3.5 PHB and Player's Guide to Faerun, yes. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 08:51:50
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| Then, I've got another question. What makes that elves learn "Slower" han humans? I mean why a 15 years old humann is the same that a 110 years old elf? Or it's only at physical level? I mean, a 110 years old elf is as wise as an ancient human would be? |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 09:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Then, I've got another question. What makes that elves learn "Slower" han humans? I mean why a 15 years old humann is the same that a 110 years old elf? Or it's only at physical level? I mean, a 110 years old elf is as wise as an ancient human would be?
To repeat the canonical explanation, it's simply that the elves take things slower because they have the time to do so. When you have a hundred years or so to learn your trade, you don't have to work at it every day-you can take it slower and enjoy it. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 09:05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Then, I've got another question. What makes that elves learn "Slower" han humans? I mean why a 15 years old humann is the same that a 110 years old elf? Or it's only at physical level? I mean, a 110 years old elf is as wise as an ancient human would be?
To repeat the canonical explanation, it's simply that the elves take things slower because they have the time to do so. When you have a hundred years or so to learn your trade, you don't have to work at it every day-you can take it slower and enjoy it.
Ok, thank you very much Arivia. Now it's clear, a bit odd, but clear.  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 14:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Then, I've got another question. What makes that elves learn "Slower" han humans? I mean why a 15 years old humann is the same that a 110 years old elf? Or it's only at physical level? I mean, a 110 years old elf is as wise as an ancient human would be?
To repeat the canonical explanation, it's simply that the elves take things slower because they have the time to do so. When you have a hundred years or so to learn your trade, you don't have to work at it every day-you can take it slower and enjoy it.
Ok, thank you very much Arivia. Now it's clear, a bit odd, but clear.
I honestly think that, when Gygax and co. were designing the original game, they looked at their Lord of the Rings and saw that Elves were old. So, in order to maintain that ancient elven feel, they made the starting age of elves around 100.
And that works out just fine if your characters back story is “He has blue…no gray! Gray eyes. Where is the dungeon? Oh, right, I’m all old and wise and stuff.”
But it falls apart under scrutiny. If an elf spends 100 years to learn a trade, how come they aren’t better at it than anyone else? Even if you do take your time, It’s still 100 years. A century is still a century.
Not that I think elves should automatically get +6 to all skills or anything (or 4 bonus non-weapon proficiencies). But “canonically” it just seems to make no sense at all.
When R.A. Salvatore wrote the Drizz’t prequels, We see a very young elf doing all kinda of super kung-fu all over the fighter academy. Obviously were dealing with someone under 100, even under 40. This was the prefect opportunity for a retcon when 3ed came out. It was, to me, the biggest failing of Third edition. And then later, when I got the FRCS, they thankfully changed their height to human height, but kept the uneven aging.
Races of the wild gave us an aging system for elves they says, basicly, around 20 years old, elves are mature, but just SERIOUSLY lazy (or perhaps enter some stage of mental retardation). However, even an elf that has 100 years of partying under his belt would gain a little wisdom, and a little knowledge, even if it is just how to dance and can do 3 around the worlds with a yo-yo.
I use the following, and I’ve never ran into a single problem with it, or had a player have a problem with it:
Elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, etc all reach maturity at roughly the same rate. Everyone uses the starting age for humans.
Maybe, MAYBE a gold elf who lives in the height of civilization has the luxury of waiting an entire century before starting a trade (or class), but a wild elf tribe fighting for their survival? Wait a hundred years before they can fight off the gnolls or invaders?
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 16:29:35
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That's why it seemed odd to me, is not very, "believable", that someone lasts a century to learn something, I mean they are leves! not dumbs... I agree with the fact of adding somo bonuses for them cause theyr age, but, it still seems kinda... weird. i've always been interested in the aging of the "first borns", but i haven't found a satisfactory explanation for that...  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 19:40:03
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IIRC In the dark Elf trilogy Drizzt became the second boy of his house at 16; I've always been under the impression that this was when he was treated as an adult, or atleast a teenager. But then I could be wrong.
Hanx
Elrond |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 19:48:03
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| Novels do not always follow the rule books, besides that was written under older edition. Where Drow matured much faster. The term of gestation was something like 4 moths for Drow as well. Now they apparently are stuck with two years now like the fair elves. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 19:52:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
To repeat the canonical explanation, it's simply that the elves take things slower because they have the time to do so. When you have a hundred years or so to learn your trade, you don't have to work at it every day-you can take it slower and enjoy it.
The canonical explanation stretches belief, though. A hundred years to learn what a human can in fifteen years? It doesn't sound so much like "relaxed living" as "mental retardation" to me. Moreover, in general, novel portrayal depicts elves as doing things as fast as anyone else, not, say, taking twelve hours to eat a single meal. My god, do elven children spend three years for potty training?
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I honestly think that, when Gygax and co. were designing the original game, they looked at their Lord of the Rings and saw that Elves were old. So, in order to maintain that ancient elven feel, they made the starting age of elves around 100.
Setting aside the fact that Tolkien's Elves become adult at the age of fifty.
Drow mature more quickly, by the way -- I think that's canonically established.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 20:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
To repeat the canonical explanation, it's simply that the elves take things slower because they have the time to do so. When you have a hundred years or so to learn your trade, you don't have to work at it every day-you can take it slower and enjoy it.
The canonical explanation stretches belief, though. A hundred years to learn what a human can in fifteen years? It doesn't sound so much like "relaxed living" as "mental retardation" to me. Moreover, in general, novel portrayal depicts elves as doing things as fast as anyone else, not, say, taking twelve hours to eat a single meal. My god, do elven children spend three years for potty training?
Agreed, it's inconsistant. On one hand, we are led to believe that the elves have such an advanced culture because of their long lives, but on the other hand, we are told that they aren't really more advanced than humans because they mature more slowly and learn slower as well. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 20:17:07
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Indeed I 've just started reading Daughter of the drow, and is said Liriel Baenre is near 40 years old. So know I am getting a bit lost.  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 08 Oct 2005 20:24:30 |
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 21:05:12
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| In our house elves age the same as humans. If you are a 13 year old human you are the same as a 13 year old elf. Where we start bringing in the longevity thing is that our elves just stop aging physically at about 20-something. That is, they still look 20-something but they are really 120. Did that make any sense? |
Huzzah! |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 21:12:15
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Makes perfect sense to me. And I totally agree with you. Of course, that could just be that we live in the same house and made those rules together. 
Actually, I have based my elven aging on how Salvatore has it. Remember, Drizzt is like 80 and he is a 16th level character. It's hard to pace a character that ages like that. Plus, remember, elves don't age in appearance at all, except that they become more filled with inner strength of soul and eventually outshine their own bodies - that's why they choose to go to Arvandor and not just dying.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 21:13:29
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But sometimes they come back from Arvandor because they have work to do.....
And remember, they fade. Physically. Never forget that. |
Huzzah! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 02:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kianna
In our house elves age the same as humans. If you are a 13 year old human you are the same as a 13 year old elf. Where we start bringing in the longevity thing is that our elves just stop aging physically at about 20-something. That is, they still look 20-something but they are really 120. Did that make any sense?
Yes, it does.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 07:52:14
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| Well, I suppouse that in the drow society is not easy to be a teenager... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 16:24:36
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It is that awkward time of your life.
I agree, the different races of elves may spend their teenage years differently, and they may be considered a "teenager" (or "not yet an adult") until differing ages but physically I think they age normally until they get to be 20-something and then they just get wiser. :)
Which brings in a whole lot of fun storylines as to rites of adult-hood for the different races. |
Huzzah! |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 19:57:11
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Hey, if in my teenage years somewhat gave me a chance to go to sword-wielding school for 10 years, I would've jumped at the chance. Then I could be a stuntman/extra in a ton of hollywood movies... Alas!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 21:07:44
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O fish-butcher in a chinese...  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 09 Oct 2005 21:08:09 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 23:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Hey, if in my teenage years somewhat gave me a chance to go to sword-wielding school for 10 years, I would've jumped at the chance. Then I could be a stuntman/extra in a ton of hollywood movies... Alas!
C-Fb
And having been beaten alot during those years...
Just ask Jackie Chan, his childhood wasn't a particularly happy one. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2005 : 02:01:23
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Hm . . . hopefully I can wax eloquent as tired as I am. These thoughts occured to me EARLY this morning (about 6 am or so).
A lot of what we are trying to do is to see elves and their maturity as how we would act if we lived this long. The problem is that this is actually a society of beings that have lived this long for thousands and thousands of years. They don't, by definition, think like humans. They don't have the same drive becuase they don't die. They may not stay on Toril forever, but when they leave, they know they are leaving because they have pretty much seen and done it all. There isn't really a fear of death because they just fade away to Arvandor.
Keep in mind, elves are intended to be chaotic. Elven parents can afford to teach their children as their children become interested in things. They don't have to make sure that their child knows their multiplication tables by 2nd grade, or that they can do algebra by 8th grade. The child most likely, eventually, will wonder about mathmatics, at least as it relates to something they have seen and read, and the elven parents can teach them about it when it comes up.
Imagine if you really did have a century to burn while still in your adolescent mindset. Yeah, you may be physically mature by 20, but we are talking about the culture you are from and what you are expected to learn and do by what point. If you lived on Evermeet, you could watch the sun rise from every hill and treetop. You would have time to read every frivolous thing that ever caught your fancy. Not things that amounted to much, like histories and religeous texts, but adventure stories and poetry. You could spend a few years visiting all of those relatives that your parents talk about but you haven't met personally yet. You could learn at your own pace about mathmatics, religeon, reading, writing, the languages you are going to speak, your family history, elven customs . . . all those things that humans have to learn in their teens so they are ready to be adults, you can take your time with. Of course, being elves, you probably pick up rudimentary fencing and archery as well, but not drilled into you as normal martial training would be. You could spend weeks chasing animals through the wild, and you could lay naked in the spring breeze, just feeling the wind on your skin. And you could spend hours just looking at the sky and the clouds, and not feel an ounce of guilt over wasting any time. And towards the end of your first century, you buckle down and decided to pick up some practical skills . . . maybe hone your fencing, maybe pick up a spellbook and practice some spells, since they come fairly easily to you. Or maybe you picked up that spellbook early, and started casting all those spells that aren't "useful" for adventures, just for the sheer joy of using magic to cause a rose to open.
In light of the above, you can imagine even better why elven parents became increasingly worried about humans near their lands. Not only because some humans are evil and cruel, but because while your child may look nearly as mature as the humans around them, they still have yet to really understand how life really works. When the humans are becoming fighters and clerics and wizards and rogues, your child has spent his life to this point asking the names off all the forest animals and playing in the snow and day dreaming. If a human that looks to be their age offers them violence, not only might they not have been trained to defend themselves, it may not have occured to them to even ask what war or death or evil is. And you grow sad because the longer you live near humans, the more young elves you see that haven't yet lived fifty winters and yet they have had to learn to use a sword and bow and wear armor just so that they aren't vulnerable. Evermeet starts to look very attractive.
The second century of your life you have already settled into some kind of life skill, but even though you are more focused, you still dabble with many things to make sure you have made the right choice. You are a somewhat accomplished warrior, but you want to know if your faith in the Seldarine leads you to be a cleric. Even though you know after 10 years that you have no real talent for divine gifts, you want to stay and worship your gods and enjoy the friends that you have made in the priesthood, so you spend another 5 or 10 years here until you decide to try your hand at sailing, or smithing, or whatever piques your interest, until you find one or two things you really want to settle on.
As you enter your third century, you start to take an actual place in elven society. You might become a teacher at the temple, or serve in the military, or take your place in the family business, or serve on a council.
I think in many ways this is why High Mages, for example, don't end up accepting anyone under three hundred. Its like a whole other phase of life, and an elf needs time to move through all of these phases before they can truly move on.
I know not all of this can be covered in rules. Rules are for resolving given situations at a given time, and they can't always apply. But I really think that this is how elves grow and develop and think, and why they are leary of shorter lives races. I think this is why, in the Last Mythal books they are hesitant to return to Faerun. The young elves that return and live near humans will likely have to be educated before they reach fifty, and may have to settle into a career by 75, and take their place in a community by 100, a time when they should just be starting to realize that life exists beyond their experiences. Its always saddening to a parent when a child has to grow up too soon.
Oh well. I've babbled for far too long. Sorry if I have spent too much time on this topic . . . |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2005 : 14:59:18
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That was very eloquent, KEJR - and I think you hit on a good point. Elves in general are so used to living as long as they do, that they do not rush in anything. I think that picking 100 as a starting age for adventuring is just a average and that's why it's placed there.
I think it is hard to relate to the true elven way of life. As humans, we always feel under the gun or similar metaphorical states. Elves generally don't feel that way and can pick and choose when to adventure when they feel like it's time. Humans of the Realms generally have to choose pretty early on when exactly it is time to go adventuring - as there "Adventuring Days" are quite short comparatively.
For example: Look at Catti-Brie and Drizzt. If you have read the novels (whether you like them or not), Drizzt looks forward to every day as a new adventure in the world. C-B is beginning to worry about how much longer she has left wielding her bow and sword.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2005 : 21:04:22
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| That makes me thing in half-elves. In dragonlance is well described how Tanis (a half-elf) is in the middle of both worlds, he is in love with Laurana (who is an elf, so she gets older much slower than him) and with Kitiara (who is a human so gets older much faster), so at this point are inter-racial relationships something "wise"? You are condemned to see how your partner gets older too fast, or too slow... i mean, is disturbing... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 02:22:53
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Have you ever read The Hunter's Blades trilogy by Salvatore? He totally goes into that with Drizzt and Catti-Brie. Innovidil, a Moon Elf that is with Drizzt explains to him the joy of being with a human, rather than just doing the "sensical" thing and forgoing that relationship.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 04:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
That makes me thing in half-elves. In dragonlance is well described how Tanis (a half-elf) is in the middle of both worlds, he is in love with Laurana (who is an elf, so she gets older much slower than him) and with Kitiara (who is a human so gets older much faster), so at this point are inter-racial relationships something "wise"? You are condemned to see how your partner gets older too fast, or too slow... i mean, is disturbing...
While your example and point are certain valid, is the alternative any better? Should you deny your feelings and forgo happiness now, to avoid loss later? I can't say I like that choice... |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 07:55:09
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| I guess is quite difficult to deny such a thing, but... i really prefer it that the alternative. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Oh!!! Aging
