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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:05:17
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Just a quick question because I don't have the Epic Level Handbook (I'm too scared to fork out $70 and then find out they are going to update it for 3.5E), does an individual become an Epic Character (and able to access epic feats etc) when they have attained 20 class levels in a single class, or 20 class levels in aggregate? Thanks in advance to all you rules gurus.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:10:51
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| I believe its 20 level full stop ie a character with 10 Rogue/10 Wizard is an Epic character |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:14:27
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If I remember correctly, you can acheive character levels above 20th without any prerequisites, but you can't take epic feats unless you have 20 class levels in a base class, or 10 levels in a 10 level prestige class. 5 level or less don't count for these purposes. And if you get 10 levels in a prestige class, you still have to have 20 total character levels to get epic level feats.
If you want to check out the epic level rules without shelling out the money, check out the SRD here:
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SRD.zip
This has most of the rules, monsters, feats, epic spells and the like, but not the NPCs from various campaigns. In fact, this is the updated 3.5 information, so in some cases its more up to date than the Epic Level Handbook is. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:52:49
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I believe you have to be 21st level to start gaining Epic Feats.
For monsterw with character classes, I believe you need only 21 Hit Dice Total.
For non-classed monsters, when you can access epic feats varies by creature type.
Regardless, the full Epic rules found with the SRD are the best source, because they're regularly updated. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:55:52
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| Sorry, I meant after 20th level, not at . . . |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:57:04
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" Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level. "
Charater level is what counts as to being Epic, once you reach character level 21 you are Epic even if you took one level in each of the 21 classes (not sure if that is posible yet to be able to take 21 base classes Yet). One needs to reach level 20 of base class before allowed to take Epic extension of base class (i.e. your must be level 20 Bard before you can take Epic Bard features when gaining a level - you might need character level 50 before becoming an Epic Bard if you have 10 levels Cleric, 10 Sor, 9 Fighter, 20 Bard). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 02:08:49
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| Heh heh . . . can you tell no one in my campaign has actually gotten to be 20th since 3.0 let alone 3.5. Sorry, I was thinking of class abilities, and I just wrapped epic feats in with class abilities. Of course, thats why I posted the link . . . I do know where to get the answers, just haven't assimilated them yet, lol. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 03:42:02
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Thanks to all for the responses.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2005 : 18:03:00
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I have the Epic Level Handbook, and it's actually quite neat, and I doubt they will redo it for 3.5. But, unless you're going to have lots of people getting at those levels, it's definitely not worth the extra bucks. I actually picked mine up for $18 on Ebay. Only because I was contemplating making a love interest of uber power for my wife's character.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 06:49:55
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| So say a Great Wyrm with a base CR of 24 and 10 class levels (giving it a CR of 34) wouldnt use the epic rules? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 07:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
So say a Great Wyrm with a base CR of 24 and 10 class levels (giving it a CR of 34) wouldnt use the epic rules?
An ordinary great wyrm should use the epic rules, if I understand the rules correctly. Any monster with ECL 21+ is an epic monster, and uses the epic rules.
The Epic Level Handbook is a bit vague at this point, if I remember correctly, and it would be nice if anyone can confirm this. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 08:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
So say a Great Wyrm with a base CR of 24 and 10 class levels (giving it a CR of 34) wouldnt use the epic rules?
CR has nothing to do with being Epic.
For the most part Epicness is based off of Hit Dice. At 21 HD is when you can start taking Epic Feats.
So yes, your more powerful dragons can start using the Epic Rules at Adult Age.
Some DM allow ECL to grant Epicness, others don't.
And I think someone has said the rules specifically state 21 HD as opposed to 21 ECL.
For me it depends on how nice or mean I want to be, but once I make the decision for a campaign, I stay with it. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 13:29:00
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Yeah, but if you were going to make a Dragon that awesome, I would turn to the Draconimicon for information on making creatures of the such truly the terrible beasts that they are. I know not every creature has a specific tome for it, but if it exists, use it.  .
I can't remember if Savage Species has any other rules for Epic type creatures or not. Anyone remember?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2005 : 06:29:41
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Dargoth,
I'm no expert, but as I understand it....
...the Epic Rules don't make a point of limiting or revising the rules for monster feat selection, BaB, etc..like they do with Character Classes when a creature progresses past 20 Hit Dice. That is, when a creature attains 21 hit dice it doesn't all of a sudden have to deal with a different system (read: progression) for Feats, BaB, etc..like a character reaching 21st level would.
What the Epic Rules do say is that creatures with 21 hit dice can acquire Epic Feats and (at the DM's discretion) have the ability to make Epic Skill and Ability Checks.
If your Dragon had 20 class levels in a single class and gained an additional level in that class, then at that point (i.e. 21st level) you would apply the Epic Rules that govern the advancement of that class when you leveled the Dragon. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 15:49:30
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I for one, would be quite scared of that Dragon.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 21:32:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I for one, would be quite scared of that Dragon.
C-Fb
*chuckle*
You might want to stay out of Sembia!  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 01:11:12
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Well, I would go collecting faerie dragons, though. Can't be scared of those...
You know, it's just that kind of thought pattern that always gets my PCs killed. Maybe I should listen to advice! 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 15:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, I would go collecting faerie dragons, though. Can't be scared of those...
You know, it's just that kind of thought pattern that always gets my PCs killed. Maybe I should listen to advice!
C-Fb
A level 34 faerie dragon........... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 19:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, I would go collecting faerie dragons, though. Can't be scared of those...
You know, it's just that kind of thought pattern that always gets my PCs killed. Maybe I should listen to advice!
C-Fb
A level 34 faerie dragon...........
A Faerie Dragon with the Dragon Ascendant PrC except they don't count as True Dragons anymore   |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 20:48:52
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, I would go collecting faerie dragons, though. Can't be scared of those...
You know, it's just that kind of thought pattern that always gets my PCs killed. Maybe I should listen to advice!
C-Fb
A level 34 faerie dragon...........
A Faerie Dragon with the Dragon Ascendant PrC except they don't count as True Dragons anymore
The most nasty surprise a friend of mine who is a DM ever sprung on his players was a goblin arch-mage. He gave them several hints that this was not your average goblin, but they blatantly ignored the hints and attacked the goblin as soon as they could. Two dead PC`s later(I wasn`t there but I am told that their death was quite spectacular) they got the hint, but, alas, too late.......Which proves that size definitely doesn`t matter. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 08:46:44
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| It looks like the prudent adventurer should avoid lone goblins at all times. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 11:22:02
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Especially those goblins carrying a lot of treasure with them!!
Right now I am working on making my Fey'ri Sorcerer an Epic Character. I am currently level 16, but that is still a far way to go. It's hard to build the exact character I want - but alas, that's why I have a generous GM at time! :)
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 11:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Especially those goblins carrying a lot of treasure with them!!
Right now I am working on making my Fey'ri Sorcerer an Epic Character. I am currently level 16, but that is still a far way to go. It's hard to build the exact character I want - but alas, that's why I have a generous GM at time! :)
C-Fb
Remember to use your ECL instead of your class levels for determining when epic benefits apply to you, as you have a level adjustment. See page 209 of the 3.5 DMG. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 03:28:42
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That's true, but even with my ECL, I am only a 19th level character, and it seems that I am having to claw and dig my way for every experience point... plus I only get to play that game once a month or so.
Oh well, my GM promised I would get there someday: here's to hoping!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Becoming an "Epic" character
