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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 21:33:21
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I am a little disappointed that the D&D online is Eberron (Actually I am not that disappointed it, is an online game I DON'T feel compelled to play now).
I looked through the Eberron book and it seemed real 1920's to me. Too anachronistic for my tastes. What do you all think about it? I have not developed much of an opinion about it because I have not REALLY looked through it, and I doubt I will buy it.
Does anyone here know about the setting? is it good to make D&D online Eberron, (an aparently UNCONVENTIONAL fantasy game)?
I am just wondering how much of a following Eberron could have with FR, Greyhawk, and Krynn so well established.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 21:47:23
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| I do know that if I was moved to play an online D&D MMORPG, I would much rather wander around a city that I have grown to love like Waterdeep, than one I still don't have a firm "feel" for, like Sharn. I'm sure Eberron appeals to some people, and that is great, but the idea to relase this game as an Eberron game reminds me of the marketing campaign that WOTC seemed to lauch when Eberron came out, which is that Eberron is going to bring in droves of youngsters to save our hobby. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 23:11:16
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| I was quite excited about the D&D Online game. I've never partaken in MMORPG's before and this was going to be my first venture into this. However, since finding out that it's set in Eberron, i've changed my mind. If it had been just a core non-campaign setting world (like the D&D Heroes XBOX game) or set in FR, then i'd have definately gone for it. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 02:04:07
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On one hand I kinda wished they would base it in the Realms, then I got to thinking...
I would rather see Eberron go down in flames with this than the Realms, because you know the online players will make all kinds of assumptions based off of their online experiences.....
Just like how people constantly try to meta-game with novels. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 05:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
On one hand I kinda wished they would base it in the Realms, then I got to thinking...
I would rather see Eberron go down in flames with this than the Realms, because you know the online players will make all kinds of assumptions based off of their online experiences.....
Just like how people constantly try to meta-game with novels.
WELL SAID WARLOCK!!!
I agree with Lord Rad though. I would of embraced a D&D online game if it was CORE WORLD instead of Eberron. I agree with Lord Rad's marketing statement above.
I think if D&D online would of just stuck to Greyhawk or a core world it would do better. It is going to have a TOUGH time fighting World of Warcraft or City of Heroes. Maybe by the time it comes out some of the WOW or CoH people will ahve maxed their characters out, and give it a try. Eberron scares me a bit really. I would hate to see all the D&D video game products go to Eberron now. That would be disappointing.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 14:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I do agree that Greyhawk would probably be a better place to stage this at.
Poor place is so neglected despite being the core setting.
Just a question... I went to EBGames.com to look up Dragon Shard, and it listed the game as a strategy game, akin to Warcraft, or the such. So is Dragon Shard supposed to be the MMO or a strategy game?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 15:12:53
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| Dragon Shard is a different game than D&D Online, and both are set in Eberron. Dispite the excellent sales the FR games have had (Baldur's Gate? Icewind Dale? NEVERWINTER NIGHTS?), as with the marketing of the the pen and paper products, WOTC (or Hasbro perhaps) has decided that Eberron is SO much better suited to drawing new gamers to the fold, so they have went full bore into using Eberron as its new setting for everything. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 15:21:49
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Just to clarify, I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression of what I think of Eberron. It might be an interesting setting. If I had the time, and someone else were running it, I might make a character and play in the setting a while (from what I have seen, I can't wrap my brain around it well enough to run it as a DM). It is a different concept, and it may indeed appeal to many people.
My problem is that the marketing around the setting revolved around this idea that younger kids, the next generation of gamers, has grown up with Harry Potter, and they want more modern settings for the RPGs, so the only way we will get them to play D&D is to leave Greyhawk, DragonLance, and Forgotten Realms behind and promote a new, flashy setting.
The problem I had with this logic, was that these same kids that grew up with Harry Potter also grew up with the Lord of the Rings movies as well. Heck, I grew up with Star Wars, and virtually no good fantasy movies (I wasn't old enough to see Excalibur when it first came out), and yet I still managed to find the Lord of the Rings books, and from there, found D&D (hijacking my sister's D&D Basic Set that she begged my parents for, then never learned).
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 23:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Just to clarify, I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression of what I think of Eberron. It might be an interesting setting. If I had the time, and someone else were running it, I might make a character and play in the setting a while (from what I have seen, I can't wrap my brain around it well enough to run it as a DM). It is a different concept, and it may indeed appeal to many people.
My problem is that the marketing around the setting revolved around this idea that younger kids, the next generation of gamers, has grown up with Harry Potter, and they want more modern settings for the RPGs, so the only way we will get them to play D&D is to leave Greyhawk, DragonLance, and Forgotten Realms behind and promote a new, flashy setting.
The problem I had with this logic, was that these same kids that grew up with Harry Potter also grew up with the Lord of the Rings movies as well. Heck, I grew up with Star Wars, and virtually no good fantasy movies (I wasn't old enough to see Excalibur when it first came out), and yet I still managed to find the Lord of the Rings books, and from there, found D&D (hijacking my sister's D&D Basic Set that she begged my parents for, then never learned).
Knight you are absolutely correct. We grew up different with the Conan the barbarian and Dragonslayer the best we could get. However, marketers are NOTORIOUS for not understanding the PRODUCT and only understanding the demographics.
It is the same thing my friends that were REALLY into music used to gripe about. Marketers follow advice they learn in business school and that rarely leads to what people really want. Like anything when you market to the masses the integrety breaks, and the quality declines. Dungeons and Dragons will become the Dell Computer.
When Hasbro took over I was worried about trends I am seeing now. WOTC saved the D&D game, but I fear that Hasbros marketing people will just make it Vanilla.
I have no dislike towards Eberron, but I think that is just the first step the marketers make to mass produce our hobby.
Marketers consistently underestimate the intelligence of the people involved in the SCI FI/FANTASY/Horror hobbies and treat it as if they are marketing clothing.
This is a sore spot with me, so I apologize for a rant. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 03:57:15
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quote:
The problem I had with this logic, was that these same kids that grew up with Harry Potter also grew up with the Lord of the Rings movies as well. Heck, I grew up with Star Wars, and virtually no good fantasy movies (I wasn't old enough to see Excalibur when it first came out), and yet I still managed to find the Lord of the Rings books, and from there, found D&D (hijacking my sister's D&D Basic Set that she begged my parents for, then never learned).
Mourn, Knight, know that you are DEFINATELY not alone in your opinions.
I'll go out right and say that Ebberon looks like nothing more than a campaign to throw a fast-food fantasy setting at a generation of gamers bred on mindless Blizzard games. I say this, having grown up as part of this generation.
I've grown up with a generation of kids who want their high resolution graphics, their 'click click click click click' consoles, their games that are based more off of competition and less about team work or plot. Ebberon looks very much like an excuss to battle, use fire arms, and introduce too many dragons. Marketing wise, WOTC will probably make more money producing (like I said) fast-food fantasies like ebberon than it will paying attention to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, or Krynn.
The utter stupidity of the masses is what degrades the system. Its the fact that a lot of people my age just don't want to do the work of making a serious, well rounded, thickened plot, multi-aspect campaign that is more than just collection of random battles. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
Edited by - Sir Luther Cromwell on 24 Aug 2005 03:57:36 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 04:36:54
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I can understand this logic for the video gamer crowd. But I think if a person is going to take the time to utilize the mental energy necessary to play Dungeons and Dragons they are going to suspend all the graphic preferences (By graphic I mean visual).
From what i have seen, Eberron will gain its popularity because it actually takes LESS mental energy since it is much easier to visualize a 'modern' magic world than a 'classic' magic world. I would think if someone is willing to commit that energy they would be willing to commit their imagination as well.
I think if they stop making FR games it is very near tragic. Those were some of the most enjoyable games I played yet. D&D online is not going to feel like D&D should with all the anachronisms. I am perfectly aware this could just be OLD GUY talking about the downfall of the next generation, but I honestly feel like Eberron Video games over Forgotten realms are a sad mistake.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 04:47:43
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| Then again, my friend is fit to be tied, becuase they are reducing all support for the Star Wars RPG to miniatures support . . . I definately hope that is the direction we are heading with the D&D miniatures line . . . |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 04:52:33
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, my friend is fit to be tied, becuase they are reducing all support for the Star Wars RPG to miniatures support . . . I definately hope that is the direction we are heading with the D&D miniatures line . . .
So its official then, the Star Wars RPG is dead? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 05:49:04
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, my friend is fit to be tied, becuase they are reducing all support for the Star Wars RPG to miniatures support . . . I definately hope that is the direction we are heading with the D&D miniatures line . . .
So its official then, the Star Wars RPG is dead?
Not exactly. But then, it is hardly alive either -- more like a state between life and death.
Here's the latest from Gen Con regarding the future of the SWRPG -
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I have returned from GenCon, with news both good and bad.
First, the bad news. Wizards currently has no plans to produce any more material for the Star Wars Roleplaying Game. The game is not canceled and they did say that they continue to try and find ways to support it, but don't look for any new products any time soon.
On the good news front, it does look like the Star Wars minis line is going strong and well. If you're like me and enjoy using the new minis for your RPGs you'll be pretty happy to hear about the new Endor Pack they'll be releasing early next year. It includes an AT-ST and three stormtroopers and will be perfect for anyone looking to fill out their Imperial Army. They had the huge packs from the Universe set and a lot of those minis look gorgeous as well.
Equally impressive was the AT-AT miniature. Built to scale with the Star Wars minis (and usable in minis gameplay, too), the AT-AT just looks and feels awesome. At $50 it's a bit expensive, but hey, if the climax of your Rebellion Era campaign calls for a ground battle against the Imps then this one is a must-have. I got to look at one up close and it's really astounding.
So there you have it. The con was great, but a bit disappointing for the fans of the RPG.
And now that is done... let us try to sway discuss back to D&D products  .
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 06:59:36
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Eberron is a great setting.
I haven’t had a chance to run it yet (though I’ve read and own the ECS and a few other Eberron hardbacks), but I can say it’s base themes and setting-concepts offers much that the Realms does not. In this way I think Eberron fills a real niche that the Realms can’t, which is good because Eberron can serve to draw more people into the DnD game and has the potential to grow and prosper as the Realms has.
That and there’s a ton of stuff that can be taken from Eberron and ported over to the Realms.
First impressions are what they are, I wonder how many hardcore Greyhawk fans made negative snap-judgments about the Realms before realizing how incredibly mistaken they were.
Could some of us be just as wrong in making hasty judgments about Eberron (and the supposed ‘idiot’ masses who play it)?
Time will tell.
As to the computer game, one of my players is big on online games. He mentioned this last Monday that he’d heard Eberron would be the default setting for the computer game, and that this disappointed him. He thought the Eberron brand wasn’t big enough yet to have name recognition, and that it would have been better to appeal to the wider (non-Realms and non-Eberron audience) DnD population by not using a specific campaign setting.
I agreed with this last idea, but also though this was a good reason not to use the Realms, either.
Anyway he also said that the magic system is going to be based around something virtually identical to a mana pool, and that each class will only have 10 levels. These levels will further be subdivided by four ‘mini’ levels.
The game’s designers are also supposedly tweaking each class to give them more overall power (so that you feel like you gain something with each mini-level attained).
Now I have no idea how true this computer game information may or may not be. Just passing on what I heard.
Lastly I can relate to the base concerns regarding WOTC’s marketing department (Sean Reynold’s Story of Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums comes immediately to mind http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html), however I think we might be forgetting that WotC does have a solid mechanism for soliciting and collecting customer feedback. It’d be a mistake to forget that they are very well informed about their customer base.
It’ll be interesting to see how well this game does. |
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Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 24 Aug 2005 07:06:59 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 14:22:27
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If you read my original post, I don't have a problem with the setting per se. Trying new things in a setting is great, so long as that setting doesn't become the default "normal" for the game. Spelljammer, Planescape, and Dark Sun were all great settings, but none of them would be a good "baseline" to start redefining the core concepts of the game around.
My problem is with the marketing of Eberron, particularly when it first came out. If you read any Dragon Magazine articles at the time, it virtually made it seem like we old dinosaurs that still play Forgotten Realms are driving off the youngbloods and that WOTC had to create something that would get the youngsters into the game besides our old worn out antiquated settings. I also worry that they seem to be shifting from Greyhawk as their default core setting and might start leaning toward Eberron as their base ("everything in D&D has a home in Eberron" . . . why does that sound familiar).
So no, I am not so much upset with the setting. I do think that D&D Online would have been better served in perhaps Greyhawk, as a default, to bring in new players as well as hook older ones that have an idea about the setting. I worry that Eberron may not exist for long as a tabletop game but may become the setting for D&D video games, and that if this happens, pen and paper may not be a priority for very long.
In an article last year in PC Gamer, an executive from Hasbro made some remarks that were kind of scarry, basically mentioning how D&D is a brand, not a specific game, and they may need to find new ways to use the brand. He left unspoken that the game may wither and die if they find a good outlet for the "brand" and perhaps I am too concerned about this comment, but it still didn't sound like Hasbro is fully commited to making sure there is always a D&D pen and paper RPG. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 14:58:33
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I think one thing that the Realms will have more of is novel support. As long as the big names for WotC are writing books set in FR, more people are going to be drawn to it since it is easier to understand.
I tried to read an Eberron novel and it just didn't do anything for me. I know WotC is pushing Eberron like crazy, but even with marketing to the new generation, they have to remember who has the disposable income right now, and even though the new youth generation is beginning to drive the market more and more, the main spending generation are those right now between the ages of 21-40. (Excluding Baby Boomers who have crap loads of money and are retiring early with HUGE pensions and the such).
I think WotC may be making an error focusing so much on one while beginning to shun the other.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 15:13:34
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quote:
I think if they stop making FR games it is very near tragic. Those were some of the most enjoyable games I played yet. D&D online is not going to feel like D&D should with all the anachronisms. I am perfectly aware this could just be OLD GUY talking about the downfall of the next generation, but I honestly feel like Eberron Video games over Forgotten realms are a sad mistake
Don't worry, Mourn, I'm probably the youngest member of candlekeep, and also a member of this 'click click click' generation. I definately don't see you as the Old guy who is nothing but a fading time. From the way I see it: the very fact that you can question whether your nothing but arrogant in this case (which you are not), makes you not so.
You know what, honestly, I personally have no problem with new ideas. There is nothing wrong with trying a campaign setting that is different. It's the idea that Wizards is now going to re-route EVERYTHING towards this. And lets just face it, everyone can see that Wizards is being very commerical about everything. I mean, just look at the DMG II. Being a good DM is all about moving away from the first book and becoming independent, NOT becoming dependent on a second book so wizards can get more money. That book seriously took all of the creativity out of DMing.
Sanishiver, I agree with your reasoning about how we shouldn't totally knock off ebberon completely. Who knows, if its done right, it might may a really neat campaign setting. But that's the thing: Mourn, Knight, and myself are all worried that Ebberon isn't out there for the sake of enriching the world of DnD: but so Wizards can make more money. Already, we have seen a high amount of evidence that WOTC is shifting their funds away from other settings, and putting it towards ebberon. Now, its not like FR needs more material: FR is fine as far as material goes. If too much more FR material was produced, than there wouldn't be enough room for all the realmslore we folks come up with. But just leaving Star Wars? I'm not a huge player myself, but I've tried it and its a decent setting with its own distinct feel.
Maybe I'm just too opinionated on this, and maybe I'm being a little too 'stick-it-to-the-man' about this, but like any business WOTC is there to do one thing: make money. In the good old days of TSR, the situation may have been different (Mourn and Knight may know more about; they were there).
From the way I see it: Greyhawk is THE baseline campaign setting. I don't play Greyhawk, and however I have my own personal bias to Realms, Greyhawk would be the best place for something like online DnD to start. Maybe after Greyhawk, they could move onto other campaign settings. FR online would be awesome! But to start out in a recently built setting sounds a lot like WOTC are slowly but surely thinking about letting some settings go, and others slide lower than Ebberon.
Like Mourn said: Ebberon doesn't take the effort of other settings. And I'll be the first one to tell you that they other people of my generation live with a very 'fast-food' mentality.
Now what worries me even more are rumors of 4th edition. I picked up from my friend on the Frat-o-Shadows that 4th might be coming out in 2008. I mean they have have 3.0 for how long? And the d20 system works, why change it?
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"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 15:15:22
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| I think its interesting that Eberron is suppose to be inspired by pulp action and the like, and instead of focusing on more "pulp like" short novels (like the D&D novels that came out just a few years ago) or comic books, they still make the novels the 300 + page standard novels that they have used for Forgotten Realms and DragonLance. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 24 Aug 2005 15:15:48 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 15:49:14
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As I said before . . . if my friend wanted to run Eberron as his campaign instead of Star Wars, then I would gladly give it a try, make up a character, do some research to get at good background, etc. I have looked through the setting and I can't "wrap my brain around it" as a DM, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't participate in a friend's campaign set there (just for the record, I've never been able to wrap my brain around Greyhawk either, only Forgotten Realms and DragonLance, but I have had a blast as a player in Greyhawk campaigns before).
Luther, I would amend one thing that you said. WOTC takes a lot of flack, but I really think a lot of the problem lies not with WOTC, but with their parent company, Hasbro. I have worked for companies before that have been bought by larger entities. Said company made money, but the profit margin was X. The profit margin at the larger company that bought us was 2X. Thus, while we were profitable, they wanted to make a ton of changes so that ALL of their subsidiary companies made close to 2X.
Hasbro makes other games, and I am sure their profit margin is much higher on their boardgames and the like, and they want D&D to make that amount of money. Hence the issue with Star Wars as the minis are making much more money, profit margin wise, than the rulebooks.
I am worried that the BIG PICTURE isn't even making Eberron the default setting, but that they want to move Dungeons and Dragons as a "brand" completely to video games, miniatures, and the like, with a higher profit margin.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 15:57:30
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One more post and then I'll quit taking up all the oxogen in the room. As far as TSR goes, I am sure we have some of the wonderful authors and creators that could comment on this far better than I, but in a nutshell, here is what happened.
TSR essentially went the opposite direction. They made settings for everything that they had a thought about. There was Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, DragonLance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Birthright, Mystara, and Planescape, many of which were going at the same time and competeing for space and money from a limited fan base. During this time, Forgotten Realms kept the company marginally afloat, making tons more than any other setting out there.
In a way, this is an arguement FOR the profit motive. You can't outgrow your fanbase, and there is nothing wrong with making money, especially if it keeps you around long enough to make more quality products. That is where Hasbro might be going the opposite direction. When people start talking "brand" it almost screams to me "you'll buy it for the logo and the marketing, not for the crap we put in the box." |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 24 Aug 2005 15:58:04 |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 16:59:48
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quote:
Luther, I would amend one thing that you said. WOTC takes a lot of flack, but I really think a lot of the problem lies not with WOTC, but with their parent company, Hasbro. I have worked for companies before that have been bought by larger entities. Said company made money, but the profit margin was X. The profit margin at the larger company that bought us was 2X. Thus, while we were profitable, they wanted to make a ton of changes so that ALL of their subsidiary companies made close to 2X.
Remember the good old days when the people on-top actually knew something about the occupations of those underneath them? Its definately good that you cleared that up, Knight, because I had forgotten that WOTC was owned by Hasbro. Kind of funny, isn't it? I doubt the guys in hasbro know anything about Dnd.
quote:
In a way, this is an arguement FOR the profit motive. You can't outgrow your fanbase, and there is nothing wrong with making money, especially if it keeps you around long enough to make more quality products. That is where Hasbro might be going the opposite direction. When people start talking "brand" it almost screams to me "you'll buy it for the logo and the marketing, not for the crap we put in the box."
Yes, there is nothing wrong with making money. However, one has to worry if that will be all that it is about: making money. All considering, it would seem that Hasbro is the Disney of the Gaming world.
What it sounds like is the classic 'right-wing v.s left-wing' situation. Ideally, you need both wings to fly, however money makers tend to be right handed.
quote:
I am worried that the BIG PICTURE isn't even making Eberron the default setting, but that they want to move Dungeons and Dragons as a "brand" completely to video games, miniatures, and the like, with a higher profit margin.
Probably in a futile attempt to muscle out Blizzard's Niche. It's like reality TV: once one person finds a gold nugget in a river, everyone else joins in on the gold rush, despite the fact that there isn't enough room. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 17:02:15
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quote:
One more post and then I'll quit taking up all the oxogen in the room
Relax, I think we all respect each others opinions enough to not need to worry about talking too much. I mean lets just face it, we're sages. If sages were ever quiet, then nobody would learn anything  . |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 05:11:24
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WELL SAID KNIGHT AND CROMWELL.
I am becoming LESS impressed with Dungeons and Dragons core. I still have my excitement for the forgotten realms, and continue to buy that but alot of the D&D core books are going the way of the BRAND.
Knight what you said about D&D becoming a brand is EXACTLY what I was fearing from Hasbro. I was super enthusiastic about 3rd edition, but now I am seeing it become a victim of misplaced marketing.
Sanishiver remarked above that WOTC takes its customer response seriously. Well that may be true, but HASBRO is BIG BUSINESS. They are going to resort to models that fit demographics of GAMES without considering the differences between those games. Monopoly has a different fan base than D&D. STILL marketers will ASSUME D&D can attract people liek Monopoly. That is just not true. D&D is for a type of person where monopoly can appeal to most all people.
I do not like to sound like a naysayer. I am very happy video games are at the level the are now. But I have been seeing the destruction of the integrity of the D&D system for awhile. I think our designers do a good job but they are forced to do what PAPA HASBRO wants to keep their job. Marketers will never understand the scifi/fantasy crowd. It is too specific, and frankly we folk for the most part are not the type of people that go into marketing. I don't think Hasbro understand s the D&D fanbase. They will disintegrate it, and it will become an excellent video game line.
I LOve Star Wars, and as Knights friend is angry so am I. They took one game away... D&D could be close by. But I am secure in that those books are still on my shelf, and I will always be able to use them. I will be playing 3rd edition even when D&D 18.0 is released.
By the gods.. I sound pathetic.
I feel like G'Kar from Babylon 5...
The Centauri are killing D&D.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 05:21:17
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Yeah, I feel like an old man too Mourn, but hey, old gamers never die, they just endlessly recount their glory days, lol. As you said, my friend is upset about the lack of Star Wars support, but it doesn't keep my Falleen Scoundrel from roaming the galaxy sometime before Episode IV. He still has quite a bit of material to use.
It really is funny, becuase between several of the forums I have been visiting, there seems to be a lot of "endings" going on. Ravenloft is no longer going to be supported by White Wolf and has reverted to WOTC, and many think that sounds the setting's death knell. Many on the WOTC boards have said that they have heard that Greyhawk is officially dead as the Core Setting, something that may be supported by the fact that Erik Mona was directed not to use the City of Greyhawk's name or the name of Tenser in the Age of Worms Adventure Path in Dungeon.
In a way, I wish WOTC would do with everything, Ravenloft, Greyhawk, perhaps even the Realms, what they did with DragonLance. They put out a campaign setting, then license it out to a good 3rd party company that will do justice to the license, as a full blown D&D setting that is only marginally watched over by WOTC.
Who knows if this will ever happen, though if they did it this way, WOTC could still publish the FR novels just as they do DragonLance, since it is just licensed out and not sold off. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 07:18:24
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Obviousy Hasbro is big business, but WotC is its own ship under the Hasbro banner.
Within that context there will always be conflict in the manner of, "If our (Hasbro's) other subsidiaries and our core board game business can generate X amount of profit, so can you."
But this doesn't change the fact that WotC has a lot of room to do what it wants. If you consider that over the years we've seen multiple Realms books with more fluff in them, and we also know that the game has quadrupled its fan base since 3.0 was released, then IMO it follows that Wizards of the Coast has realized on some level that there needs to be a balance between all aspects of crunchy rules and all aspects of imaginary (fluffy) game world information in their products, and pursued this in recent Realms publications.
It should also be said that Wizard's goal is to start players with the Minis and basic game, then move them into the Core Game, then turn them on to either of the Two campaign settings.
This three step progression has been realized over the last year/year.5 by the increased production and sales of minis and the release of Eberron. The progression will further be enhanced by the new location sets that are coming out (Fane of the Drow, I think?) that are meant to be used as skirmish locations ***and*** encounter locations for regular DnD.
Ultimately I think the net effect of WotC's efforts isn't to eliminate the paper and pencil format for DnD at all. They are trying to alter how new fans are introduced to the game by providing collectable miniatures and a simplified mini's combat system, so that new (younger) players will start collecting, skirmishing and ultimately learning the basics of the DnD rules without realizing it.
That way new players come in at a faster rate than old players leave, thus ensuring a consumer base for the product.
So sayeth the armchair analyst. ;) |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 07:30:01
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I hope the above reply is correct.
I do have faith in WOTC. They have good people working for them.
I just fear the time when HASBRO does more housekeeping, and determines that D&D does not fit the formula.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 14:52:07
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Well, WotC is a strong company in their own right. If they got spun by Hasbro - they would just trim down the line - kill things like the GI Joe Card Game and NeoPets and the such and just concentrate on D&D and Magic - the core of their business. I don't see WotC dying anytime soon. Their books always sell well, too.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 17:06:27
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quote:
Ultimately I think the net effect of WotC's efforts isn't to eliminate the paper and pencil format for DnD at all. They are trying to alter how new fans are introduced to the game by providing collectable miniatures and a simplified mini's combat system, so that new (younger) players will start collecting, skirmishing and ultimately learning the basics of the DnD rules without realizing it.
Now whether this is WotC's intentions or not, I still think that this will be pen and paper's down fall. Yes, it gets people interested, but the sad thing about people (particularily people of my generation) is that they are two things:
#1: Imprudent
#2: Lazy
This is a gradual shift in society over all due to many, many factors which I believe we all know. My generation is imprudent, in that it's willing to spend all of its time, scrubbing away at McDonalds at minimun wage, so it can buy over priced minatures that it really doesn't need. My generation is also lazy, in that a lot of people want things to be made for them: we are losing our abilities to do things ourselves, and want others to serve things on a mirco-scopic, sliver platter with a Nike logo on it. DnD takes effort, whereas a DnD randition of Battle Hammer does not take quite as much effort (no offence meant towards Battle Hammer players).
Another thing is that slowly people are losing the love of reading. Go to anyone in my generation, and I gaurentee you that they could tell you who is winning in American Idol, how badly their local sports team is losing, or how to 'pimp up your ride'. Very few people could tell you what their favorite book is.
But eliminating other campaign settings, and thus eliminating peoples need to read, stupid people are happy. A person is smart, but people are dumb. A company is interested in people, not a person. And so, complex, subtle campaigns such as RAVENLOFT (that really did require a highly intelligent person to play) may not have a place in this flock of cyber space idiots that I tolerate every day. Instead, RAVENLOFT is being copied, edited, stupified, and slapped on a plastic lunch box in easy to read forms such as Libris Mortis (a book that nauseated many a RL player). I hate my generation. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Ebberon?
