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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 20:00:57
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Hey I was wondering if there was any canon describing what sort of lore the dwarves kept, how they kept it, where they kept it etc? Any help with this would be great.
Hanx
Elrond
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Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 21:04:37
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Well, I donīt remember correctly, but I think that FR11 Dwarves Deep have something about dwarven lore. Iīm in my job now, so I will check this to you at night, and answer tomorrow (if my valorous northen cousin, Hammer of Moradin, donīt answer first, of course  )
Chosen of Moradin |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 21:38:20
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I was actually wondering which one of the Moradins' would be the first to answer!
Hanx
Elrond |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 01:53:09
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Ed's Dwarves Deep tome is certainly the right source for this, but you might also want to run a search through the Ed's own scrolls here at Candlekeep. He's replied to questions about dwarves at various times in the past -- some regarding historical dwarven facts.
Additionally, you might want to ping Ed again for anything specific he can tell you about ancient dwarven lore!
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 22 Sep 2005 01:54:23 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 14:07:13
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Hello, wisest elf!
After a research in the excelent Dwarves Deep tome, I came back bringing to light the knowledge that you search. So, letīs go:
- We dwarves register in our runestones gelealogies and family burial markers, portable tombstones, inventories of the wealth of a clan, family or brotherhood, records of great events and deeds of valor, warnings (marking places, traps, situations...), treasure stones (a dwarven version of tha pirateīs maps of treasure). Resuming: anything thatīs worth to be registered, we register.
- We write in stone walls, pillars, cairns, and standing stones all over the Realms. Most often, we write in flat stones, known as runestones. A tipical runestone if flat and circular or diamond shaped, and of a hard and durable rock. One or both faces of the stones are inscribed with Dethek runes in a ring or spiral around the edge. Runestones are usually read from the outer edge to the center along the spiral. The spiral encircles an identifying rune or picture, such as an clan mark or personal rune.
- Well, they are kept at various ways. The runes concerning specific clans information are guarded by the proper clans. The marking or warning runes are left next to the respective marks, or made in walls or pillars next to the respective marks. The holy texts are maintaned by the respective faiths, and in the pillars and walls of dwarven temples. And so on...
I expect that this can help you. And if you have any more question, feel free to drop more lines!
Ah, and the Sage is right. Our loved Loremaster Ed of the Greenwood have give us too many hints of dwarven lore, so, with a good search in his thread (or Kujeīs file), you will find too many jewels of knowledge.
Chosen of Moradin |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
Edited by - Chosen of Moradin on 22 Sep 2005 14:08:37 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 08:51:17
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i wonder how larger texts are recorded, as runestones are imo only practical for small amounts amounts of information.
- books with pages made of metal?
- scrolls made of thin, flexible metal foil?
- gems enchanted with a very special kind of rune-magic, enabling holographic information storage?  |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 14:45:11
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| Don't forget wooden sticks (so-called rune-sticks), which were the main material for writing runes on back in old Scandinavia (and I'm guessing pre-parchment Germany too), or stripped and treated pieces of bark. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 16:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
i wonder how larger texts are recorded, as runestones are imo only practical for small amounts amounts of information.
- books with pages made of metal?
- scrolls made of thin, flexible metal foil?
- gems enchanted with a very special kind of rune-magic, enabling holographic information storage?
More likely, they sing their epics!
One of the more famous ballads being the Dirge of Delzoun, found in Lost Empires of Faerun.
This approach makes sense with dwarves, although I would imagine many dwarves have adopted the parchment and book approach for many writings, and certainly those pertaining to legal matters. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 18:05:09
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Passing on the dwarven epics by singing seems fitting to me, but I was more thinking about large texts about other things, for example instructions for technical processes like smithing or building machines (like waterpowered hammers). We know from several articles in dragon magazine that dwarves built semi-complex mechanical devices, and i canīt imagine a dwarven smith/carpenter/miner who teaches his apprentices by singing all the time...
Also, many of these technical things should need technical drawings (the construction of a water wheel for example), and those cannot be impartet by song.
I too think that the dwarves adopted ink & paper, but what did they do before that, and whatīs the "proper" (i.e. the dwarvish) way to store informations? after all, paper does not quite satisfy the dwarfish claim for durability! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 18:35:15
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Well met, Tauster!
In my gaming group dwarven "books" have been piles of runestones, or stories carved on the stronghold walls. It may be that most dwarves, though literate, do not write actual books.... (stone outlasts paper and parchment, so why bother?). However, perhaps an "urban" dwarf or a dwarven sage might write on parchment/paper? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 20:19:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Well met, Tauster!
In my gaming group dwarven "books" have been piles of runestones, or stories carved on the stronghold walls. It may be that most dwarves, though literate, do not write actual books.... (stone outlasts paper and parchment, so why bother?). However, perhaps an "urban" dwarf or a dwarven sage might write on parchment/paper?
piles of runestones are, at least in my eyes, impractical. ok, you can try to organize them in shelfs or bind them together with metal wire, but that still doesnīt seem very practical to me. and practicality is a thing i closely relate to the dwarven mindset.
writings on walls, i can buy that. dwarven clan-holds can very well have several "knowledge chambers" or something like that, perhaps as annex to temples. still, they would not be as easy to read as books: you can not simply turn a page but have to slowly walk around the camber, and besides the place for runes is limited to a more or less narrow strip at eye level. ...on the other side: knowledge-chambers would make very atmspheric dungeon-rooms! 
iīm still looking for a practical AND dwarvish solution. for the moment, books with metal-pages are the best, but iīm not 100% convinced... |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 20:42:53
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| I somehow can`t imagine dwarves writing down stuff on paper. Paper can survive for a few hundred years(in a hermetically sealed area), while stone lasts for far longer than that. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 20:55:27
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I don't know where . . . perhaps only in my own feverish imagination, but I seem to remember references to circular books with metal pages written in the typical dwarven spiral pattern. The pages were very thin but durable metal plates. I could swear I saw that somewhere in FR lore, but its been a while . . . does anyone else remember this reference.
BTW, I remember watching the Fellowship of the Ring, when they pick up the book in Balin's Tomb, and thinking, "What self respecting dwarf would write a journal on paper?" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2005 : 02:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
BTW, I remember watching the Fellowship of the Ring, when they pick up the book in Balin's Tomb, and thinking, "What self respecting dwarf would write a journal on paper?"
The Book of Mazarbul.
You have to remember though... the importance of the book itself in the history of Moria, and how it related stories about Balin. We known that some of his exploits were also rendered in runes meant to protect areas sacred to the dwarves of Middle Earth. And considering Balin's last stand in the Chamber of Mazarbul -- I don't think the dwarves would have been too "picky" about what to record their final hours upon  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2005 : 11:15:21
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| Oh I know . . . just joking about my familiarity with Realmsian dwarves . . . not to mention no self respecting dwarf should have lost a drinking contest with an elf either . . . but that is another matter entirely, lol. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2005 : 14:22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Well met, Tauster!
In my gaming group dwarven "books" have been piles of runestones, or stories carved on the stronghold walls. It may be that most dwarves, though literate, do not write actual books.... (stone outlasts paper and parchment, so why bother?). However, perhaps an "urban" dwarf or a dwarven sage might write on parchment/paper?
Nope--dwarves always think toward durability first and foremost.
Idea that popped up--The Shields of Arduke Koralhax are a set of 13 dwarven-made shields made of steel overlaid by dragon's scales both outside and inside. There are four made of white scales, three of black, three of red, and three of blue. The outsides of the shields are relatively standard, and the shields all provide a +3 to saves vs the appropriate dragon's breath. What makes them pertinent to this conversation is this--the shields collectively are a book by Koralhax entitled simply HOW TO HUNT DRAGONS. The insides are marked by a dwarven rune for which order to read each shield, and the 9-27 scales inside each shield (for the scales vary in size according to the age of the dragon slain to forge the shield) are each a page. Should some dwarf read/study every shield, they would gain some bonuses in fighting dragons (insert appropriate feat, skill, or simply use the ranger's ability and make the dragon a favored enemy).
Alas, two of the white shields and one each of the black and red shields reside on one of the many treasure hoards of Iryklathagra, and the other two red shields lie with Icehauptanarthax's sole hoard. Still, seven of the shields are out there, and only three are currently borne by dwarven adventurers. The rest lie lost or forgotten among dungeons and dales somewheres north of Myratma and south of Baldur's Gate and west of Riatavin but not within the confines of any of those cities.
How's that for a little new/old Realmslore for ye morning?  |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2005 : 23:45:08
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Rock on Steven!
That'll work for my game very nicely, methinks!
Thank you!
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldnt believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2005 : 02:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Nope--dwarves always think toward durability first and foremost.
Which makes the concept of a "dwarven library" all the more curious -- shelves and benches stacked full of ancient armors, shields, swords and axes... all of which carry stories and lessons from those dwarves who have gone before.
And that's just for the small stuff. The vast dwarven halls, furniture, even the implements they use to eat their even feasts carry the engravings of popular or worthy dwarves -- reciting grand tales about heroism, strength, and the "dwarven way".
quote:
How's that for a little new/old Realmslore for ye morning?
'Tis great!
Steven, you really need to get back into writing material for FR sourcebooks .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2005 : 10:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Which makes the concept of a "dwarven library" all the more curious -- shelves and benches stacked full of ancient armors, shields, swords and axes... all of which carry stories and lessons from those dwarves who have gone before.
And that's just for the small stuff. The vast dwarven halls, furniture, even the implements they use to eat their even feasts carry the engravings of popular or worthy dwarves -- reciting grand tales about heroism, strength, and the "dwarven way".
...itīs not the dwarvish solution Iīm looking for (which would be mundane instead of magical), but how about the following? It is a combination of elven-inspired lore-gems and dwarvish rune-/gem-magic, and more like an artifact than an everyday item.
A small box casket made of immershine- treated steel. Inside there is a compartment made of a polished silver plate that can be taken out. It reveals four dozens of multi-faceted gems in neat and orderly rows beneth it, each one resting in a cavity padded with velvet.
The inside of the caskets cover sports a bracket made of four silver clasps. It can hold one of the lore-gems, and upon turning it a full round clock-wise, will project the contents stored in the gem as small but easily readable runes onto the silver compartment. The gem inside the bracket can be controlled by mental commands to show its contents and "turn pages", or to change the colour and intensity of the projected runes. It is not known whether there is a limit to the extend of information that can be stored in a gem, although some Delvesonns suspect that it has to do with the gems purity, cut and size.
These "Lore-Boxes" [dwarfish name needed!] are highly treasured by dwarves and their existence is never revealed to non-dwarves, so they are virtually unknown outside the few lucky clans that still own one of these ancient treasures (they ussally wonīt even tell other dwarven clans of their posession). The secret of their creation was lost with the fall of Shanatar, along with the one library that held hundreds, if not thousands of them. Only the ones that had been borrowed at the time of the libraryīs destruction survived. It is rumored that in the moments before its destruction, the huge cavern complex was visited by an avatar of Dumathoin, who took everything with him - but that might very well be dwarven wishful thinking.
Nowadays these boxes are almost always kept in dwarven temples (regardless of the god revered there), where clerics guard them as one of the things reminding them of the races slow decline. Many Delvesonns (speciality priests of Dumathoin) make it their life-task to rediscover how to create Lore-Gems and Lore-Boxes, but so far no one has succeded. Perhaps Dumathoin doesnīt want them to discover the secret?
...as I said, itīs not a mundane solution that fitīs the "dwarven feel" but more a blending of other existing items and magics. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2005 : 16:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Nope--dwarves always think toward durability first and foremost.
Which makes the concept of a "dwarven library" all the more curious -- shelves and benches stacked full of ancient armors, shields, swords and axes... all of which carry stories and lessons from those dwarves who have gone before.
And that's just for the small stuff. The vast dwarven halls, furniture, even the implements they use to eat their even feasts carry the engravings of popular or worthy dwarves -- reciting grand tales about heroism, strength, and the "dwarven way".
If my memory serves me correctly, I think I put just that sort of library into the DUNGEON CRAWL: UNDERMOUNTAIN--THE LOST LEVEL. In fact, I know I did as there's moments with a hill giant throwing stone tablets at the PCs. Had Bill Connors (another designer at TSR) asking me if that was the Moses Giant....  So yeah, there's at least one canonical dwarven library of the lore of the Melairkyn of Undermountain..... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 01:37:58
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The Moses Giant... I never saw it!
But yeah, that's the path I was following. I was also picking up some hints laid down in the Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs book -- which states that dwarfs like to leave their mark on everything (everything non-perishable that is). 'Tis their way of ensuring their immortality.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 07:52:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Moses Giant... I never saw it!
But yeah, that's the path I was following. I was also picking up some hints laid down in the Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs book -- which states that dwarfs like to leave their mark on everything (everything non-perishable that is). 'Tis their way of ensuring their immortality.
The dwarves of Warhammer are fun. Their word for soddy workmanship means the same as "man-made". |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Dwarven Lore
