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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 01:07:31
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So,
Here's my question for the month since some posters over the WOTC boards want to put the Chosen up on a pedestal.
My question is this: Since we know that most of the game designers consider FR a living world, are the Chosens of Mystra more important, as NPCs, then the commoners, laborers, and others that make up most of the population of Faerun?
I seriously can't wrap my mind around how 12+ people can be more important then the thousands+ of commoners and laborers that make up most of the population of Faerun.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 01:20:35
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Depends on what you mean by important and whose doing the talking
Prominent NPCs like Elminster, Storm, Fzoul, Manshoon etc are the "Celbrities/Politicians" of the Realms and like in our own world there views carry more weight than the average joe blogs.
If realms characters existed in the real world New Idea and Womens day would be writing storys about Alustrial amazing weight loss diet and Mirt would be appearing on the front cover of Forbes magazine |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 01:32:30
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| Not sure I can help much. The Chosen can effect the lives of millions of Coms so become far more importat. I will also not that low level Coms, Experts can not make enough money to even be alive and support a family. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 01:35:00
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What I mean by important is in general. Not who has more power but is Elminster the Chosen more important in the setting then Mary the tailor.
They are trying to argue that the 12 Chosens are more important NPCs in the setting then 12 laborers or commoners. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Sep 2005 01:36:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 01:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
What I mean by important is in general. Not who has more power but is Elminster the Chosen more important in the setting then Mary the tailor.
They are trying to argue that the 12 Chosens are more important NPCs in the setting then 12 laborers or commoners.
Well... In terms of influence within the Realms, yeah, the Chosen are more important than 12 laborers.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
What I mean by important is in general. Not who has more power but is Elminster the Chosen more important in the setting then Mary the tailor.
They are trying to argue that the 12 Chosens are more important NPCs in the setting then 12 laborers or commoners.
Well... In terms of influence within the Realms, yeah, the Chosen are more important than 12 laborers.
Yes, but we are not discussing influence and we are discussing overall. I guess I'm not making this clear. Sigh.
I'm talking as in game living beings, the Chosen are just as important as laborers and commoners. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:11:39
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The Chosen are more important than Mirt... ! I've never heard of such a thing.
Seriously though... that's just a ridiculous statement to ever make about a specific aspect of the Realms. This may sound harsh, but obviously claiming something like this has shown that more crucial Realms components and elements have been ignored.
Chosen are special yes, and they are important... that's granted. But they aren't necessary to the functioning of the Realms. And by necessary I mean that the Realms would go on and function if the Chosen were to pass on or disappear. The Realms function and "live" because of those commoners, laborers, and rulers.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:22:38
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| I think you need to narrow down 'important', Kuje. Important from what point of view, what purpose, for whom? I don't think there's an objective 'important' here, and from some points of view (outside or within the Realms) the Chosen are more important than these unnamed characters (or comparable named characters), from others they're not. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:34:45
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I know what you mean - and I answer this: Since a lot of the novels, sourcebooks, and other assorted materials always talk about the chosen, they are deemed more important. I don't believe this is so. I think that the chosen would be crap without the millions of Mystra worshipers...
But since we focus on just the main characters - well. You know... Is Britney Spears more important than any of us? Just cuz guys ogle and women emulate is no reason that what she says and does should be more important.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think you need to narrow down 'important', Kuje. Important from what point of view, what purpose, for whom? I don't think there's an objective 'important' here, and from some points of view (outside or within the Realms) the Chosen are more important than these unnamed characters (or comparable named characters), from others they're not.
Just in general. As a being living in the Realms are the Chosen more important then a commoner or laborer? I'm not sure how else to explain this. The debate is mostly just that, are the 12 Chosen of Mystra more important then 12 laborers or commoners. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I know what you mean - and I answer this: Since a lot of the novels, sourcebooks, and other assorted materials always talk about the chosen, they are deemed more important. I don't believe this is so. I think that the chosen would be crap without the millions of Mystra worshipers...
But since we focus on just the main characters - well. You know... Is Britney Spears more important than any of us? Just cuz guys ogle and women emulate is no reason that what she says and does should be more important.
C-Fb
Exactly. You made it clearer then I did. :)
I've been trying to get people to realize that in a living world that is FR, the Chosen are no more important then commoners or laborers. Yes, one has more power but one is not more important then the other. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:40:24
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| Within the Realms, morally, as people, no, the Chosen aren't more important. But the egalitarianism of the Realms is a relatively subtle point to pick up; that the Chosen are, for instance, politically more important is easier to see, and glancing at the wizards.com thread, people are talking at cross-purposes. |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Sep 2005 02:41:49 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:49:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
glancing at the wizards.com thread, people are talking at cross-purposes.
Hmmm? Which people? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:54:30
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| Most of them! You and Derren S., for instance, are talking about different kinds of 'importance'. And he hasn't read the novels that demonstrate your point, so he isn't going to agree with you (of course, he doesn't have cause to disagree either). |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 02:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Most of them! You and Derren S., for instance, are talking about different kinds of 'importance'. And he hasn't read the novels that demonstrate your point, so he isn't going to agree with you (of course, he doesn't have cause to disagree either).
Grin,
Ah. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 03:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Is Britney Spears more important than any of us? Just cuz guys ogle and women emulate is no reason that what she says and does should be more important.
C-Fb
Hehe...
Women in the Realms emulating Storm... . Hmmm... Elminster fan worshippers crowding the streets of Waterdeep screaming his name... all wanting to see and touch their "favorite" Chosen when he chooses to visit the City of Splendors for this or that important reason.
I'm filing this away for my annual April Fool's Day one-shot game next year  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Sep 2005 03:09:06 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 03:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Is Britney Spears more important than any of us? Just cuz guys ogle and women emulate is no reason that what she says and does should be more important.
C-Fb
Hehe...
Women in the Realms emulating Storm... . Hmmm... Elminster fan worshippers crowding the streets of Waterdeep screaming his name... all wanting to see and touch their "favorite" Chosen when he chooses to visit the City of Splendors for this or that important reason.
I'm filing this away for my annual April Fool's Day one-shot game next year .
Already beat you to it
You didnt read my first response did you?  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 04:34:39
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Actually, I was hoping Laeral would come out doing a little of Xtina Aguilera's Dirrty.... that's hot. :) Khelben's too stuffy for her anyway!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 04:46:14
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Kuje, but the difference between the Chosens and the common people is that the Chosens are heroes who save Faerun from countless threats.
A farmer may be the one who grows those carrots you eat, but if Manshoon comes for your head, it's the Chosens of Mystra and not the farmer who can be counted upon to defeat him.
I can't see using real life people to compare FR NPCs. In real life, we do not face the situations that the people of Faerun have faced. As someone has said, "Faerun faces a plot to take over the world every tenday..." We don't live in a society where the need of mighty protectors against flights of dragons or orc hordes.
Only rarely do we see large cases of violence (a good example would be the situation in New Orleans right now as a result of Katrina). |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 05:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kuje, but the difference between the Chosens and the common people is that the Chosens are heroes who save Faerun from countless threats.
A farmer may be the one who grows those carrots you eat, but if Manshoon comes for your head, it's the Chosens of Mystra and not the farmer who can be counted upon to defeat him.
I can't see using real life people to compare FR NPCs. In real life, we do not face the situations that the people of Faerun have faced. As someone has said, "Faerun faces a plot to take over the world every tenday..." We don't live in a society where the need of mighty protectors against flights of dragons or orc hordes.
Only rarely do we see large cases of violence (a good example would be the situation in New Orleans right now as a result of Katrina).
Granted but this still doesn't make the Chosen any more important in terms of NPCs then a commoner. And I disagree partly because commoners also make up the bulk of the population and thus they also make up the bulk of the armies as militia. Cities would not exist without commoners and laborers nor would nations. Yes, the Chosen are important but they are not MORE important then any other NPC. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Sep 2005 05:49:06 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 07:43:46
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| Well Elmisnter for instance is more important than the average commoner in the sense that he regularly defuses situations that could be catastrophic. For instance stopping a war between illithids that could have torn the eastern realms apart(I don`t remember which novel this was mentioned in) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 11:25:48
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Hmm....seriously, In a way the Chosen of Mystra may be important, yeah, in a way going round saving the realms and challenging optimistic bad men and confident sentient creatures.
But still, I think they are not worth the might and abilities of the commoners or ordinary folk whatever that comprise the population of Faerun. Still, The Chosen were not present when serious subtle threats threatened to tear or destroy a city, region or Faerun, example: now the Chosen are fighting say a big threat or evil plot and saving people in Region X, but elsewhere, multiple crazy insane evil plots and threats are surfacing in other places and regions and are in motion, killing or enslaving people and tearing apart cities and yet the Chosen were not there to be save the situation, those suffering in these situations will be wondering "Where are the so called Chosen?".
In the end, it is the common folk such as peasants or some unknown heroes from among the ordinary folk that spring forward to meet the threat and destroy the threat or whoever is behind the evil plot. So, I say the population of Faerun are more worthy and important than the Chosen.
I am just commenting, no offense intended, honest!. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 14:48:54
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Ok, well, let me make this real world analogy - if as you say Elminster diffuses everyday crises and the such, doesn't that make him no more different than a president or ambassador of a third party country?? And as the book says, and you all state, the Chosen save people on an everyday basis from war and famine and the such? Well, what about those who are planning relief missions to the Southern US or for the Tsunami victims? Those are frickin heroes, man.
So, you're right, they are more important, but don't say there isn't a real world comparison. The reason I know this is because when you read about the chosen, you are placing them within the paradigm of what you understand, and you relate to them as heroes. Well, if you didn't have a real world example of a hero was, you wouldn't understand what they were about.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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SteelGeneral
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 16:01:50
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| My 2 cents worth...They (the chosen)are more important because the fans of the world have forced them to become so. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 17:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Hmm....seriously, In a way the Chosen of Mystra may be important, yeah, in a way going round saving the realms and challenging optimistic bad men and confident sentient creatures.
But still, I think they are not worth the might and abilities of the commoners or ordinary folk whatever that comprise the population of Faerun. Still, The Chosen were not present when serious subtle threats threatened to tear or destroy a city, region or Faerun, example: now the Chosen are fighting say a big threat or evil plot and saving people in Region X, but elsewhere, multiple crazy insane evil plots and threats are surfacing in other places and regions and are in motion, killing or enslaving people and tearing apart cities and yet the Chosen were not there to be save the situation, those suffering in these situations will be wondering "Where are the so called Chosen?".
In the end, it is the common folk such as peasants or some unknown heroes from among the ordinary folk that spring forward to meet the threat and destroy the threat or whoever is behind the evil plot. So, I say the population of Faerun are more worthy and important than the Chosen.
I am just commenting, no offense intended, honest!.
This is mostly my point. Yes the Chosen are important but they are no more important then commoners and laborers, which make up most of the population of Faerun. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 17:36:58
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Ok, well, let me make this real world analogy - if as you say Elminster diffuses everyday crises and the such, doesn't that make him no more different than a president or ambassador of a third party country?? And as the book says, and you all state, the Chosen save people on an everyday basis from war and famine and the such? Well, what about those who are planning relief missions to the Southern US or for the Tsunami victims? Those are frickin heroes, man.
So, you're right, they are more important, but don't say there isn't a real world comparison. The reason I know this is because when you read about the chosen, you are placing them within the paradigm of what you understand, and you relate to them as heroes. Well, if you didn't have a real world example of a hero was, you wouldn't understand what they were about.
C-Fb
Ambassadors are different. They represent a nation, with the force and influence of that particular nation behind them. An ambassador from USA would be more "important" than one from like Thailand because of USA being a superpower.
You could also use this in FR-wise, like an ambassador from Zhentil Keep would be more influential than one from like Archendale because the Zhents are more powerful.
However, the Chosens of Mystra are independents. They don't represent any nation and don't need the support of nations or city-states (even though they do have them). This is the difference in terms of importance. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 17:37:25
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| also who is more important, the Simbul who comes to a small Aglarondian town near the Thayan border which is under attack from Thayan forces and she starts blasting the mages and causing collateral damage, or an Ilmatari priest who comes after the destruction to heal the civilian victims of the fight. |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 17:43:13
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Ok, well, let me make this real world analogy - if as you say Elminster diffuses everyday crises and the such, doesn't that make him no more different than a president or ambassador of a third party country?? And as the book says, and you all state, the Chosen save people on an everyday basis from war and famine and the such? Well, what about those who are planning relief missions to the Southern US or for the Tsunami victims? Those are frickin heroes, man.
So, you're right, they are more important, but don't say there isn't a real world comparison. The reason I know this is because when you read about the chosen, you are placing them within the paradigm of what you understand, and you relate to them as heroes. Well, if you didn't have a real world example of a hero was, you wouldn't understand what they were about.
C-Fb
Ambassadors are different. They represent a nation, with the force and influence of that particular nation behind them. An ambassador from USA would be more "important" than one from like Thailand because of USA being a superpower.
I dont think there is a difference between an ambassador from USA and an ambassador from Thailand. What I think is more important is how they use the resources that they have. Thats why for example Frodo would be more important than Gandalf.
Gandalf has more power so of course he´s going to usually have more influence in the Middle-Earth, but Frodo hwo is just a halfling goes and saves the whole continent (and my life from eternal boredom ). |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
Edited by - Talanfir Swiftfeet on 02 Sep 2005 17:49:10 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 20:52:39
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You don't think so?
Well, just look at the influence of USA compared to a country like Thailand. Sure, in the hierachy of politics they may be the same, but since America is a much larger and powerful country compared to Thailand, the US ambassador would have more influence in a discussion. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 20:57:37
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
You don't think so?
Well, just look at the influence of USA compared to a country like Thailand. Sure, in the hierachy of politics they may be the same, but since America is a much larger and powerful country compared to Thailand, the US ambassador would have more influence in a discussion.
I tend to agree.
When was the last time you hear Thailand successfully pressuring a country to change its trade practices, or have it promise to work on bettering its stand on human rights?
Power, whether it is econimic, military or religious, translates into just about every aspect of interaction and communication.
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Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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The Chosen of the deities
