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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 13:00:19
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Two questions :
1. When a mortal ascends to godhood, he could create his own portofolio or he has to assume a portofolio which already exist ?
2. The clergy of Bhaal was only human or Bhaal or he could have had priests of other races (more precisely, elves) ?
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 13:56:06
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To answer your questions:
1) A mortal rising to godhood, yes, this happened before with examples such as Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor and Finder. But it is unheard of that they can create their own portfolios, for I doubt Ao would allow that to happen. So far, mortals that rise to godhood normally assume the portfolios held by their predecessors anyway such as example, Midnight assuming Mystra portfolio of magic and Cyric assuming the portfolio of the dead Lord of Murder.
2) Elves as clerics of Bhaal? Unheard of but humans tend to rank fairly large in numbers in the clergy of Bhaal. But since Bhaal is dead, there are still cults hoping for Bhaal return. I have never heard of elves as clergy of Bhaal, drow? perhaps drow maybe. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 26 Aug 2005 13:58:01 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 14:16:13
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1) yes, Shadovar is right. If was allowed to mortals create their own portfolios when they ascend to divinity, so Ao will have to permit that the formal gods create his own portfolios, too, and it will became a whole mess. And the god, generally, is the embodiment of his porftolio, so I think dificult to one god "create" a new portfolio to himself...
2) never heard of elves worshiping Bhaal. But I donīt doubt that they exist, somewhere... after all, there are some really really bad elves out there... |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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RedStrike
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 14:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
2) never heard of elves worshiping Bhaal. But I donīt doubt that they exist, somewhere... after all, there are some really really bad elves out there...
You mean like Elaith Craulnober? Who kills without batting an eyelid and not disturbed by his own dark actions? |
We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 15:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by RedStrike
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
2) never heard of elves worshiping Bhaal. But I donīt doubt that they exist, somewhere... after all, there are some really really bad elves out there...
You mean like Elaith Craulnober? Who kills without batting an eyelid and not disturbed by his own dark actions?
Yes. And I mean of the Eldreth Velluuthra. And of the feyīri that haunt the great forests. And of that arrogant sun elves (not all of them, of course) that donīt deserve the respect that they receive. And of the multitude of player characters that use the combination "nice elven abilities + bad guy with bad behaviour"  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 15:35:09
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| The portfolios are settled on the Tablets of Fate and can not be altered... They are a constant in cosmos and anybody ascending to godhood must take one of those... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 16:59:17
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| Ed has told me that the pantheons are not closd off at all so anyone can worship any deity, as long as it makes sense to do so. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 17:23:28
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| There are portfolios out there that are uncovered... Many of the minor deities have, upon their ascension, picked up these uncovered portfolios -- like the Red Knight, or Velsharoon. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Aug 2005 17:24:08 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 17:26:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Faramicos
The portfolios are settled on the Tablets of Fate and can not be altered... They are a constant in cosmos and anybody ascending to godhood must take one of those...
And they were crushed to dust ;) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 18:23:47
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Wooly is right - mortals ascending to godhood either assume an existing portfolio from a dead deity, or create their own. However, when a mortal becomes a god, he/she usually needs a "sponsor" to divinity, who certainly may have developed a suitable "role" to a new godling. Then there is also the matter of one's own personality, which will obviously affect what kind of portfolio you choose.
No matter how a mortal becomes a deity, the path to godhood will be long and hard (nigh-impossible quests, rituals, discovering ancient lore/secrets, personal sacrifices, maybe even slaying a minor godling, etc.)
Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul didn't have a sivine sponsor. They became gods after slaying the quasi-deity/demigod Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud. Then they confronted Jergal, who stepped down from his throne, and shared his power among them. And that was the moment (according to the myths in F&A) when the Dark Three chose their portfolios. So maybe you need a certain amount of divine power (Divine Rank 1) until you can choose a portfolio?
Velsharoon was sponsered to divinity by Talos, and Red Knight by Tempus.
However, there have always been many wargods existing simultaneously, in different pantheons and cultures. Perhaps every god may freely choose his/her portfolio - even an existing one. Ao certainly has the power to prevent any foolish choices, for example, another Karsus trying to become a god of magic. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 21:08:30
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quote:
2. The clergy of Bhaal was only human or Bhaal or he could have had priests of other races (more precisely, elves) ?
Elves, from what I've noticed, aren't big on the whole 'kill kill kill, and when you're done, kill some more' thing. In Baldur's Gate there is a gnome called Tiax would worshipped Cyric (and a humerous one at that). That's about as close as you can get, I would think. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 02:12:46
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| Didn't Bane create the portfolio of Fear when he returned in his resurrection? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 09:53:34
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No, he took Xvim's portofolio. Xvim already had fear.
Two other questions :
1. From who did Finder Wyvernspur took his portofolio ? He took rot from Moander, but the others (like growth, rebirth for instance) ?
2. A spawn of an evil god (for instance, someone like Xvim) who is good-aligned could take the portofolio of redemption, instead of tyranny and strife ? If he could, from there this portofolio would come from ? It would be newly created or it will be taken from the portofolio of another power ?
"However, there have always been many wargods existing simultaneously, in different pantheons and cultures. Perhaps every god may freely choose his/her portfolio - even an existing one. Ao certainly has the power to prevent any foolish choices, for example, another Karsus trying to become a god of magic."
Only if that portofolio is free. And this is unlikely to happen in Forgotten Realms, with so many gods lusting for more power. Personally, I don't think there can be uncovered portofolio, because any portofolio who becomes free will have immediately a lot of claimers. |
Edited by - Feanor on 27 Aug 2005 10:18:28 |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 10:41:32
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quote:
1. From who did Finder Wyvernspur took his portofolio ? He took rot from Moander, but the others (like growth, rebirth for instance) ?
Rebirth in Finder's portfolio simbolized the transformation from arrogant bard into a hero, and then deity.
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Omnia sunt communia. |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 10:43:57
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| Yeah, but rebirth belonged to Lathander. |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 10:47:11
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True. Finder's infact has renewal from rot and corruption, not rebirth.
More properly is portfolio is circle of life, not rebirth. I think it was explained in Powers & Pantheons. |
Omnia sunt communia. |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 11:06:12
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| Ok, but who gave him this portofolio ? (The Finder's bane ends with the destruction of Moander, and does not say a word what happened afterwards). All our points was that a new god can't simply step in and say "Hey, this portofolio is mine". The portofolio should already exist and he has to have some claim over it or convince the owner to relinquish it to him. Finder treads on Lathander's and Oghma's turf this way. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 13:58:04
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| Demigods also are allowed to have a portfolio that another god has, but they will never rise above demigod until either the more powerful god lets that portfolio go, or the two of them "resolve" who really should have it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Personally, I don't think there can be uncovered portofolio, because any portofolio who becomes free will have immediately a lot of claimers.
But there are uncovered portfolios... To paraphrase a joke another deity made, there is no deity of cups and saucers in the Realms. Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?
No, there are uncovered portfolios. Why are they uncovered? Because existing deities are either incompatible with these free-floating portfolios (Cyricists telling jokes? Helmites drinking wine?), or because there's simply not enough potential return on their investment (the god of cups and saucers, for example, wouldn't receive much worship from that portfolio). |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:27:30
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Another factor in this is a god would have to prove themselves capable of holding the portfolio, wiether from capturing it or making it up. Bane took fear after demonstrating that he could cause a powerful, godly image of fear. Making his seem worthy of holding that title in the eyes of most of the gods and even Ao.
You can make a god of anything, but they must proved a strong image of the portfolio. Like Finder his change from fool to god produced an image of the cyclical nature of life, a transformation of his life through art and his patronage of the Saurial.
Just some of my thoughts. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:29:26
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quote:
Who is the god of wine?
The Master is always the god of wine in our campaigns!
Give him some good Chianti and certainly will be more comprehensive! |
Omnia sunt communia. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:33:45
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Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 21:25:54
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Psionics is another unclaimed portfolio. Still nominally held by the dormant god Auppenser. Although I hear he may yet soon stir...  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 22:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 22:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
quote:
Who is the god of wine?
The Master is always the god of wine in our campaigns!
Give him some good Chianti and certainly will be more comprehensive!
Perhaps Lliira, in the sense that she is the goddess of joy and festivals? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 22:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Personally, I don't think there can be uncovered portofolio, because any portofolio who becomes free will have immediately a lot of claimers.
But there are uncovered portfolios... To paraphrase a joke another deity made, there is no deity of cups and saucers in the Realms. Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?
No, there are uncovered portfolios. Why are they uncovered? Because existing deities are either incompatible with these free-floating portfolios (Cyricists telling jokes? Helmites drinking wine?), or because there's simply not enough potential return on their investment (the god of cups and saucers, for example, wouldn't receive much worship from that portfolio).
But being the god/goddess of households (deity of home and hearth, which would include those cups and saucers ;) might be worthwhile... perhaps Ed tried to create a pantheon consisting of "exciting" deities (at least from the characters' point of view) with a bit more broader aspects and portfolios instead of all those God of Roads, God of Caravans, God of Flatulence, God of Meat and Sausages etc.
Maybe that is why there are so many "free-floating" portfolios... either they were "too specific/unimportant" or "not-so-exciting"
Anauroch describes some minor and unique deities, sort of semi-divine ancestral spirits which are tied to a certain place (their power center). So there might be other "small gods" around, who actually may hold power over those cups and saucers and such (Terry Pratchett's "Small gods" is a good refence, if you use such beings in your campaigns)
I assume that Ed, who originally tried to avoid any direct cultural references in the Realms, may have thought that there have been so many sun deities in the RW pantheons, so he intentionally decided that the Realms shouldn't have one. But I am only guessing here |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 23:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed?
I agree since the moon and sun are so important in pagan cultures that Faerun is based on. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 04:26:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed?
I agree since the moon and sun are so important in pagan cultures that Faerun is based on.
Both good points.
It's especially curious given Ao's stance on keeping the pantheon balanced. You'd think that because the Moon is so well represented in the faith of Selune that the Sun itself would also warrant some representation.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 11:46:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed?
I agree since the moon and sun are so important in pagan cultures that Faerun is based on.
Both good points.
It's especially curious given Ao's stance on keeping the pantheon balanced. You'd think that because the Moon is so well represented in the faith of Selune that the Sun itself would also warrant some representation.
Didn't Myrkul have "Dusk" in his portfolio (at least in 2e lore)? Since Lathander is the God of Dawn, there seems to be a balance, and perhaps no god has dared to try to become the God of Sun (since Amaunator), because two aspects of the Sun have belonged to two Greater Powers for so long? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 13:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are portfolios out there that are uncovered... Many of the minor deities have, upon their ascension, picked up these uncovered portfolios -- like the Red Knight, or Velsharoon.
Not quite. Both were granted an aspect of another god's portofolio. Red Knight from Tempus, Velsharoon from Azuth. They had a divine sponsor, they did not take a completely new one. If there are portofolio for every aspect of life, then it means that thousands of portofolios could exist. Which is quite unlikely.
"Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?"
To reply to this questions :
jokes and mirth - Liira, as the goddess of joy
marriage - Sune, as the goddess of love
construction and engineering - Gond
wine - Silvanus, god of nature
ham and cheese sandwitches - this one is simply ridiculous ; if we take it this way, then I can easily list 10,000 possible portofolios.
Also, keep in mind that many possible portofolios are included in other gods' portofolios. For instance, if someone wants to become the god of laws, it would tread on Tyr's turf.
If an ascended mortal has a divine sponsorship, then he could take an aspect of his patron's portofolio. For instance, a follower of Sune becoming god of marriage. But, if he does not have such sponsorship, can he simply take a portofolio from nowhere ?
After all, if it would be so simple to acquire new portofolios, why gods try to snatch each other's portofolio ? Why Mask, for instance, wants intrigue back from Cyric instead of proclaiming himself the god of smugglers ? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 14:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are portfolios out there that are uncovered... Many of the minor deities have, upon their ascension, picked up these uncovered portfolios -- like the Red Knight, or Velsharoon.
Not quite. Both were granted an aspect of another god's portofolio. Red Knight from Tempus, Velsharoon from Azuth. They had a divine sponsor, they did not take a completely new one. If there are portofolio for every aspect of life, then it means that thousands of portofolios could exist. Which is quite unlikely.
"Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?"
To reply to this questions :
jokes and mirth - Liira, as the goddess of joy
marriage - Sune, as the goddess of love
construction and engineering - Gond
wine - Silvanus, god of nature
ham and cheese sandwitches - this one is simply ridiculous ; if we take it this way, then I can easily list 10,000 possible portofolios.
Also, keep in mind that many possible portofolios are included in other gods' portofolios. For instance, if someone wants to become the god of laws, it would tread on Tyr's turf.
If an ascended mortal has a divine sponsorship, then he could take an aspect of his patron's portofolio. For instance, a follower of Sune becoming god of marriage. But, if he does not have such sponsorship, can he simply take a portofolio from nowhere ?
After all, if it would be so simple to acquire new portofolios, why gods try to snatch each other's portofolio ? Why Mask, for instance, wants intrigue back from Cyric instead of proclaiming himself the god of smugglers ?
You're ignoring part of my earlier statement. Gods either don't grab these uncovered portfolios because it's not worth it, or because they're not suited to them.
You are also ignoring the fact that the sun is an uncovered portfolio. There was a deity of the sun in the past, but now there is not. Hence, it is uncovered.
As for some of your portfolio assignments...
Lliira covers celebrations and such. I don't see telling a joke as being a celebration of anything.
Sune covers stuff related to marriage, but nowhere is she specifically assigned marriage. Sure, it makes sense to give it to her, but it's not in her listed portfolios.
Gond -- okay, that one I will grant
Silvanus covering wine? Why would someone who watches wild nature and druids give a rat's behind about wine?
Ham and cheese sandwiches -- yup, it's ridiculous. But... if you look, no one covers food. And few is insanely important. Sure, we have Chauntea who essentially provides the food, but food itself (at least, other than plants cultivated by humans) is uncovered.
And here's a question back at you: you say gods are so busy trying to snag each other's portfolios... Then why would other deities casually give them away? Strategic planning is certainly related to war, but there's no evidence that Tempus actually did anything with it. If gods are so busy trying to steal portfolios from each other, he should have kept it for himself, not given it away. |
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Portofolios
