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Originally posted by Faramicos

Sounds like a combination of a DMīs biggest challenge and a DMīs worst nightmare... I am intrigued. It sounds like a very cool and definatly playable idea.

I think it is necessary for the powers of Waterdeep to make a statement and perhaps make an example so that the players understand that, yes they are indeed mighty, but they are not almighty. Show them that they are not free to do exactly what they want to do.

Please keep a detailed journal here in this topic for the rest of us to follow. I would love to be able to follow the progress of the adventure. When is it set to begin?

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

What classes/races are they. A 19th level drow necromancer is going to create a differnt stir than a 19th level half elf assasin that can be more or less low key. I would definately say that the Harpers, the Moonstars, and the Lords of Waterdeep would all be peeking into their business.

As I said, blackguards, necromancers and the like are going to be much more readily noticed than high level bards, rogues, assasins, and fighters. If there are clerics, are they clerics of a neutral deity that themselves are evil, are they clerics of an evil diety that is "accepted?"

Looking forward to hearing about this group of terrors . . .

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Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

I had a 15th level fey'ri sorcerer in Waterdeep in one campaign. I stayed out of all the intrigue of nobles and the courts and ran a bordello named the Siren's Kiss in the Dock Ward. I did most of my business is Skullport - which is where I would direct a lot of the action in that game.

C-Fb

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Require a backstory. How they got to 19th level. Determine how much rumor or knowledge would reach Waterdeep before they arrive.

That's standard practice for us, in fact the half-drow already has 8 pages of history and is only up to his 15th birthday!

There is no indication the the Guard or the Watch normally checks for evil alignment so they should not be stopped for that reason. They certainly however could be stopped/confronted if their evil nature has become legend of the realms.

I figured that was the case, but I haven't gotten all of their histories yet, so I'm still in the dark.

There of course is also the posibility that they have no evil repertation evil can appear to be good (with or without disquies). You clearly need to know more about the charcters, their history, their goals, general tactics. Depending on that can you better decide when/if the Evil PCs will be confronted but high level forces of either good or law.

I think one of the half-drow's key character concepts is anonymity, he doesn't even have a name. The tiefling on the other hand was recently responsible for the death of a 16th level Harper PC, is being targeted by a shapeshifting assassin of Mask, and has dealings with a Red Wizard and a Glabrezu.

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Originally posted by webmanus

((I did once run a Drakar & Demoner evil campaign where the characters had to find som tool of evil, and take it from another evil power group.))

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Originally posted by Xysma

I'm thinking of involving a "lost" Manshoon clone,

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Xysma

I'm thinking of involving a "lost" Manshoon clone,

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Note: there's a Manshoon clone in Undermountain. Bringing a second Manshoon to Waterdeep would cause the two to battle each other. The only way around this is for the second Manshoon to be something other than a "living Manshoon clone." He could become undead, change his shape into something else, change his gender, whatever.

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

I would definately follow up on the Harper that was killed. I wouldn't handle it like the Harpers call the city Watch and they storm the party, but I would make sure that the Harpers and likely even the Moonstars keep a very close eye on the party, and perhaps wait until a very inoppourtune time to confront the PCs, perhaps right before another power group butts heads with them.

It also sounds like some of the groups that would be interested in them, and potentially give them trouble, could be the evil guys in town. I imagine the Shaodow Thieves as well as Xanathar would most likely be very interested in their activities. There may even be blackmail potential if either group finds out something that the party did before reaching Waterdeep.

That's my two coppers.

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Originally posted by Xysma

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Xysma

I'm thinking of involving a "lost" Manshoon clone,

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Note: there's a Manshoon clone in Undermountain. Bringing a second Manshoon to Waterdeep would cause the two to battle each other. The only way around this is for the second Manshoon to be something other than a "living Manshoon clone." He could become undead, change his shape into something else, change his gender, whatever.

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That was actually the reason I was thinking of using a Manshoon clone. Can you give me any details about their compulsion? How close do the need to be? How do they act? Can they scheme against one another or is it all out battle as soon as they come within a certain proximity?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Xysma

quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:

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Originally posted by Xysma

I'm thinking of involving a "lost" Manshoon clone,

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Note: there's a Manshoon clone in Undermountain. Bringing a second Manshoon to Waterdeep would cause the two to battle each other. The only way around this is for the second Manshoon to be something other than a "living Manshoon clone." He could become undead, change his shape into something else, change his gender, whatever.

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That was actually the reason I was thinking of using a Manshoon clone. Can you give me any details about their compulsion? How close do the need to be? How do they act? Can they scheme against one another or is it all out battle as soon as they come within a certain proximity?

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I don't recall if the exact distance has been specified... But I want to say it's five miles. When they come into close enough proximity, it's all-out battle -- or at least, that's what we've seen, thus far.

But, as I said, the compulsion can be gotten around by simply becoming something else. Polymorph into a half-elf or a human female, and you're safe. Or become undead...

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Maybe being caught between two Manshoons, a Khelbun, and a Halaster?

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Maybe being caught between two Manshoons, a Khelbun, and a Halaster?

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Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Maybe being caught between two Manshoons, a Khelbun, and a Halaster?

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Wow!!!
Whatīs this in the sky? A Deathstar???

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quote:Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Maybe being caught between two Manshoons, a Khelbun, and a Halaster?


quote:Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

Wow!!!
Whatīs this in the sky? A Deathstar???

Xysma said:

Nah, just a murder of raging old black dragons.

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Ok, so I agreed to run a campaign starting at 19th level, set in Waterdeep. Sounds fun, right? Well, last night the guys tell me what they're playing... EVIL CHARACTERS! This changes everything! So my question is, what do you guys think the reaction would be to three 19th level evil characters? I've got some ideas for their adventures and such, but how will they be received in Waterdeep? If they were lower level, it would be no big deal, but 19th level characters are rare, I think powerful people would take notice of their arrival. Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions?

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One is a Fighter/Scout/Tempest half-drow/half moon elf (NE)
then we have a Tiefling shade (who actually became a shade through a wish granted by a Glabrezu in a previous campaign that I ran) that is a Rogue/Teflamm Shadow Master (NE)
The third is a human wizard/something I can't remember. This is the one that I thought would bring the most attention, the other two could possibly even slip in unnoticed. He may change to match the rest of the party, but for now he is lawful neutral, which could work our for them since he could be the "face" of the party.

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

quote:

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quote:Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Maybe being caught between two Manshoons, a Khelbun, and a Halaster?


quote:Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

Wow!!!
Whatīs this in the sky? A Deathstar???

Xysma said:

Nah, just a murder of raging old black dragons.

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Or is that just Troy Denning? (sorry, couldn't resist)

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Originally posted by Xysma

That was actually the reason I was thinking of using a Manshoon clone. Can you give me any details about their compulsion? How close do the need to be? How do they act? Can they scheme against one another or is it all out battle as soon as they come within a certain proximity?

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Originally posted by Xysma

I will be incorporating some stuff from Ed's "Keeper of Secrets"

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

I think Cloak & Dagger and Lords of Darkness have more information on the Manshoon Clones (probably also the Champions of Ruin).

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

That campaign sounds very interesting - you might wish to make that Clone either undead (Maybe (another) vampire? And link it to the Dungeon adventure "Blood of Malar" in Dungeon #126?), or perhaps he has made a pact with one of the power groups in Waterdeep. Maybe with Halaster? He could even temporarily negate the compulsion between the two Clones - as long as both are in Undermountain. And Halaster might wish to use two clones to accomplish his own, twisted goals... Some suitable candidates might also be Xanathar, Illithids, various powerful evil temples (clerics of Shar or Talos), etc.

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

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Originally posted by Xysma

I will be incorporating some stuff from Ed's "Keeper of Secrets"

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What is that?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

I think Cloak & Dagger and Lords of Darkness have more information on the Manshoon Clones (probably also the Champions of Ruin).

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Cloak & Dagger is the only real source of lore on the Manshoon clones. When 3E was inflicted on us, many of the great ideas first presented in Cloak & Dagger were basically capped off and forgotten about. Rather than build on the Manshoon Wars, they declared them over, with only three Manshoons remaining. That and the way the ignored the Harper Schism were major cases of dropping the ball, thinks I.

quote:

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Originally posted by Asgetrion

That campaign sounds very interesting - you might wish to make that Clone either undead (Maybe (another) vampire? And link it to the Dungeon adventure "Blood of Malar" in Dungeon #126?), or perhaps he has made a pact with one of the power groups in Waterdeep. Maybe with Halaster? He could even temporarily negate the compulsion between the two Clones - as long as both are in Undermountain. And Halaster might wish to use two clones to accomplish his own, twisted goals... Some suitable candidates might also be Xanathar, Illithids, various powerful evil temples (clerics of Shar or Talos), etc.

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I don't think Halaster is powerful enough to negate the compulsion, at least not without changing one of the clones to something other than a living Manshoon clone.

I think the compulsion was there because of the 2E clone spell. With that one, a clone and the original couldn't exist at the same time at all without trying to destroy each other or going mad.

Besides, Xymsa says he wants this all-out war -- so we need the compulsion left intact. What he really needs is a reason this other clone survived (since, officially, there's only three) and a reason for him to enter an area where he'll be close enough to battle the other Manshoon.

Oh, and BTW: Waterdeep has already seen dueling Manshoons once.

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