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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 06:22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Here's my (very general) idea, this Manshoon clone had been in hiding far away, say the Utter East, in order to avoid the compulsion. Now, say he recently uncovered rumors of an artifact somewhere under Waterdeep that could end the compulsion. I was thinking the artifact could be something like the shadow stone that could transform him into a shade. That should increase his power somewhat, and also end the compulsion. Is that feasible?
It's certainly feasible... But there are easier ways to become a shade, and a fourth-level spell would get him around the compulsion...
And why is he risking going after it himself? As soon as he gets near the city, he's going to be battling himself, fighting for his life... Or he could send someone to retrieve it for him.
Me, I'd not even go with the battling Manshoons bit. It's too difficult to plausibly explain.
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
My reasoning is that if it is as simple as polymorphing into something else, why didn't all of the clones do it?
Would you? You've got all the memories of a long lifespan (spanning a couple centuries, according to Steven Schend), in the same body (or at least, in copies of the same body). You're used to it. It is, quite literally, part of you.
You can get around this compulsion by becoming something else... Or you can make sure you're never around another Manshoon, and neatly get around the compulsion.
Given those choices, I know which I'd choose. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 12:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I will be incorporating some stuff from Ed's "Keeper of Secrets"
What is that?  
The story from Realms of the Dragons. It's such a cool story, I don't want to ruin it for you with any spoilers. 
Ah, that is good, since I have been planning to buy that book next week, while waiting for the City of Splendors to arrive at my local bookstore 
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 12:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Cloak & Dagger is the only real source of lore on the Manshoon clones. When 3E was inflicted on us, many of the great ideas first presented in Cloak & Dagger were basically capped off and forgotten about. Rather than build on the Manshoon Wars, they declared them over, with only three Manshoons remaining. That and the way the ignored the Harper Schism were major cases of dropping the ball, thinks I.
Aye, that is sad... both the Manshoon Wars and the Harper Schism were great ideas. I love politics, both as a player and a DM, and those events desrved more attention and published Realmslore to build on...
quote:
I don't think Halaster is powerful enough to negate the compulsion, at least not without changing one of the clones to something other than a living Manshoon clone.
I think the compulsion was there because of the 2E clone spell. With that one, a clone and the original couldn't exist at the same time at all without trying to destroy each other or going mad.
Besides, Xymsa says he wants this all-out war -- so we need the compulsion left intact. What he really needs is a reason this other clone survived (since, officially, there's only three) and a reason for him to enter an area where he'll be close enough to battle the other Manshoon.
Oh, and BTW: Waterdeep has already seen dueling Manshoons once.
Hmmm... I don't have my books at hand, so I cannot look up the info on the 2e 'Clone' spell, but I think that a properly-worded 'Wish' might negate that compulsion? Surely Halaster has many tricks up his sleeve
But since Xysma wants an all-out war, perhaps one of the clones came to Waterdeep, and sought help (and shelter) from Halaster (who might have changed him into another shape). Maybe the clone thinks that it is finally safe to assume its own form, OR perhaps the PCs would get involved in the events, dispelling the poor clone's shapechanging magics, and thus forcing in into a duel with the other clone?
These are just quick ideas...
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 16:04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Here's my (very general) idea, this Manshoon clone had been in hiding far away, say the Utter East, in order to avoid the compulsion. Now, say he recently uncovered rumors of an artifact somewhere under Waterdeep that could end the compulsion. I was thinking the artifact could be something like the shadow stone that could transform him into a shade. That should increase his power somewhat, and also end the compulsion. Is that feasible?
It's certainly feasible... But there are easier ways to become a shade, and a fourth-level spell would get him around the compulsion...
And why is he risking going after it himself? As soon as he gets near the city, he's going to be battling himself, fighting for his life... Or he could send someone to retrieve it for him.
Actually, that was going to be the hook for the PCs, they would be hired by a powerful wizard from the far east to retrieve the artifact. Unbeknownst to the players, the Eastern Wizard was actually a Manshoon clone
Me, I'd not even go with the battling Manshoons bit. It's too difficult to plausibly explain.
I'm definitely not 100% gung-ho for that, it was an interesting idea, but it maybe too much trouble.
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
My reasoning is that if it is as simple as polymorphing into something else, why didn't all of the clones do it?
Would you? You've got all the memories of a long lifespan (spanning a couple centuries, according to Steven Schend), in the same body (or at least, in copies of the same body). You're used to it. It is, quite literally, part of you.
Hmmm... polymorph or risk madness and death... I choose polymorph. Besides, if you chose a half-elf for example, your race would change, but you could keep your appearance as similar to the original as possible. It would basically be yet another copy of the same body, only with elven blood and kinda pointy ears.
You can get around this compulsion by becoming something else... Or you can make sure you're never around another Manshoon, and neatly get around the compulsion.
You're right, staying out of reach of the other Manshoons is the ideal solution.
Given those choices, I know which I'd choose.
Ok, so I guess I give up on the "Dueling Manshoons," no big deal since I've got a Manshoon in Undermountain to play with. If I am not mistaken, the "real" Manshoon never touched any of the surviving clones, so they would be at varying power levels. If that assumption is correct, how powerful is the clone in Undermountain? |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Ok, so I guess I give up on the "Dueling Manshoons," no big deal since I've got a Manshoon in Undermountain to play with. If I am not mistaken, the "real" Manshoon never touched any of the surviving clones, so they would be at varying power levels. If that assumption is correct, how powerful is the clone in Undermountain?
I can't recall seeing 3E stats for any clones other than Manshoon Prime. I'd assume them to all be at the same level, though. When you can update a clone by touch, and the clones are your life insurance policy, it makes sense to make sure they're all up-to-date. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 19:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Ok, so I guess I give up on the "Dueling Manshoons," no big deal since I've got a Manshoon in Undermountain to play with. If I am not mistaken, the "real" Manshoon never touched any of the surviving clones, so they would be at varying power levels. If that assumption is correct, how powerful is the clone in Undermountain?
I can't recall seeing 3E stats for any clones other than Manshoon Prime. I'd assume them to all be at the same level, though. When you can update a clone by touch, and the clones are your life insurance policy, it makes sense to make sure they're all up-to-date.
I thought that since these clones had all been activated at once, some of them had not been updated, so they were less powerful than those that had been. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
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Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 21:36:58
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Well guys, I've been working on this campaign a bit, and have some ideas flowing. One of the characters (the half-moon elf/half-drow) has a few levels of dungeon delver, so I had the idea to make this sort of a race to retrieve an artifact. I am still thinking the artifact will be a shadow stone, because that idea actually tied in nicely with two of the PCs (one is a shade and worshipper of Mask, and the dungeon delver is also a cleric of Mask.) So... I've created a deathtouched moon elf monk of Shar, who will also be after this artifact to get it into the hands of the church of Shar before the church of Mask can lay claim to it. Also joining in the race is a dwarven paladin of Moradin who has pledged a blood-oath to a human cleric of Lathander who once saved his life. The cleric of Lathander of course wants to keep this artifact out of the wrong hands. To round out the race is a cleric of Talos, who just wants to destroy the stone simply because the monk of Shar once embarassed him.
Ok, there's the basic idea, that leads me up to the finale of the campaign, the actual retrieval of the shadow stone. The shadow stone is in possession of an evil Titan who has become an insane shade through his contact with the shadow stone over the years. I'm thinking almost a gollum/one ring relationship between the Titan and the shadow stone. The Titan has become so obsessed with his stone that he has gone to great lengths to protect it. Through either paying, coercing, or flat out forcing them, he has gotten beholders to disintegrate a corkscrew of tunnels coiling up from the base to the top of a mountain, then straight down into the center of the mountain where he lairs with his stone.
In his madness the Titan has developed a stange fixation on the seven deadly sins: Pride, Greed, Envy, Sloth, Gluttony, Lust, and Wrath. As such, there are seven coils of the spiral, each beginning with a door that is the color associated with that particular sin (Red for Wrath, Green for Envy, Violet for Pride, etc.) Once the door is breached there will be guardians that "fit" the sin, a Famine Spirit and Leechwalkers for Gluttony, Succubi and Erinyes for Lust, a Red Dragon for Greed, a Sorrowsworn for Sloth, Nightmare Beasts for Anger, and an Effigy for Envy. The titan himself is the guardian of Pride and also of the stone.
My question is this, are the seven deadly sins so grounded in our culture that this will detract from the fantasy of the game and make it feel less fantastic or less "Realmsian." For instance, when I read Once Around the Realms, the constant string of references to pop-culture (i.e. the movie Jaws) and other real-world "stuff" completely ruined for me what could have otherwise been an enjoyable romp through the Realms. I just don't want to do that to my players. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 22:05:51
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Wow! You have a splendid idea, Xysma 
Certainly, your players will have great hours of fun and excitment.
Well, I think that only Ed of Greenwood will can answer your question about the 7 sins properly, so drop him a line, and if yes, the sins are "realmsian", so, rock and roll!
And if not, see with thim other possibilities well grounded in Sword Coast culture, and make the necessary adjustments...
Anyways, congratulations for your good idea!  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 03:35:25
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I think the seven deadly sins, though probably not called that in Faerun, are always looked at as the paths to evil. Could you not see a cleric of Lathander thinking the same thing? Or definitely a monk of Ilmater?
I doubt the seven sins would do any harm to your game... besides, the might make that slight connection to the real world that may make the characters in your game that much more intrigued.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 04:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I think the seven deadly sins, though probably not called that in Faerun, are always looked at as the paths to evil. Could you not see a cleric of Lathander thinking the same thing? Or definitely a monk of Ilmater?
I doubt the seven sins would do any harm to your game... besides, the might make that slight connection to the real world that may make the characters in your game that much more intrigued.
C-Fb
That was my reasoning, that the seven sins were sort of a "universal" concept. I think monks in particular would recognize them as barriers to holiness. I was also tinkering with the idea of having each of the doors magically locked, with some sort of mechanism that would work by matching the sins with their corresponding virtues, but I haven't worked out any details yet. Any thoughts on this idea? |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 14:37:57
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| Not to stray too far off topic, but the Advanced Gamemasters Guide has a couple really good pages on the seven deadly sins. And a really good section on designing antagonists be they good or evil. |
Edited by - Mystery_Man on 14 Sep 2005 14:40:48 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 14:51:12
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Well, you could always have the key to the doors as the greatest display of the sin located in the surrounding region. You know, like a weapon from some great warrior who settled his wrath by killing many. For Gluttony, you could find the skull of some overweight glutton (obviously) who was not a very swell fellow in life... I'll leave lust to you. :)
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2005 : 20:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, you could always have the key to the doors as the greatest display of the sin located in the surrounding region. You know, like a weapon from some great warrior who settled his wrath by killing many. For Gluttony, you could find the skull of some overweight glutton (obviously) who was not a very swell fellow in life... I'll leave lust to you. :)
C-Fb
So, in addition to the themed guardians, maybe the Titan has arranged for certain powerful figures to be the key bearers. Unbeknownst to them, they each have a key that pertains to their particular vices.
Pride: the key to this door resides in a powerful Blue Dragon's hoard somewhere in Anauroch.
Greed: the key to this door is held by the pasha of a thieves guild
Envy: this key is in the possession of a doppelganger in Waterdeep
Sloth: this key is in the possession of a powerful wizard who shut himself away in his keep many years ago
Gluttony: for this one I'm thinking the willing deformity: obese feat progression from BOVD, apply these to an Ogre monk of above average intelligence, something like an evil sumo...
Lust: A fallen paladin of Sune has this key
Wrath: This key is on the person of a Chaotic evil Chieftain of a tribe of barbarian followers of Tempus
Any thoughts? |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2005 : 20:56:00
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I love pride. All dragons are proud, but for some reason Blues have a certain aura about them.
Greed I don't really have any thoughts on one way or the other.
Envy ditto.
For sloth, make sure the wizard uses magic to do EVERYTHING for him. He hovers and levitates instead of walks, opens all doors with spells, etc. I would make him especially thin to deliniate his sin from the next one, and perhaps come up with an idea where he even has used magic to feed himself so he doesn't have to prepare food or even do that most strenuous task of chewing . . .
For Gluttony, I immediately thouht of that fat ogre mage from the Forgotten Realms comics. You may want to make this even more of a streach and make it a fat troll monk, as trolls are renowned for their voracious patterns of behavior.
Lust, definately a good idea, though you may want them to have fallen first into the worship of Sharess, then into the worship of Shar after Sharess redemption.
Wrath, I would make sure that the barbarian was a worshipper of Garagos rather than Tempus. More wild and enranged that way, but thats just me.
Just some suggestions . . . you have a pretty good base set down there for yourself to work from. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 15:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I love pride. All dragons are proud, but for some reason Blues have a certain aura about them.
Greed I don't really have any thoughts on one way or the other.
Envy ditto.
For sloth, make sure the wizard uses magic to do EVERYTHING for him. He hovers and levitates instead of walks, opens all doors with spells, etc. I would make him especially thin to deliniate his sin from the next one, and perhaps come up with an idea where he even has used magic to feed himself so he doesn't have to prepare food or even do that most strenuous task of chewing . . .
Perfect, that's exaclty where I was going with it.
For Gluttony, I immediately thouht of that fat ogre mage from the Forgotten Realms comics. You may want to make this even more of a streach and make it a fat troll monk, as trolls are renowned for their voracious patterns of behavior.
Interesting, a fat troll in and of itself is a cool idea.
Lust, definately a good idea, though you may want them to have fallen first into the worship of Sharess, then into the worship of Shar after Sharess redemption.
Again, interesting, I wasn't going to have him actually change deities, he was still going to worship Sune, just in a twisted manner. I was thinking that he would not have even realized that he has "fallen."
Wrath, I would make sure that the barbarian was a worshipper of Garagos rather than Tempus. More wild and enranged that way, but thats just me.
Good idea, I agree completely.
Just some suggestions . . . you have a pretty good base set down there for yourself to work from.
Thanks for the excellent suggestions. The more I get into this, the less time it looks like we'll actually be spending in Waterdeep. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 16:56:47
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| I love brainstorming with people. Its great to see the creative process at work. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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19th Level in Waterdeep
