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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 20:44:57
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Hi folks,
I am browsing through my Faiths & Avatars (such a good, excellent book) and I am looking at my newly bought Faiths and Pantheons (does not help much ...). And, there is a question that I had asked mnyself many times ago. So, here I shoot.
In general, what Cleric character level would you assing an acolyte or novice?
When I read through the title entries in Faiths & Avatars, I get the impression that an acolyte or novice is, in D&D 3.0 game terms, something like a 0-level Cleric; yes, I know, there are no such thing as a 0-level character in D&D 3.0. Below, parts from Faiths & Avatars, where acolytes and novices are mentioned.
Lathander
"Novices in the Lathanderian faith are called Awakened, and they gain the title of Dawnbringer upon becomming full priests."
Oghma
"Acolytes in the service of the of the Binder are called Seekers, and those of some accomplishments are Senior Seekers. When an acolyte demonstartes clear ... ... ... two priests confirm the acolyt as a true priest of Oghma, bestowning upon him or ther the title of loremaster."
Waukeen
"Novices are known as Telchar among Waukeenar. In ascending order, the ranks a priest may rise through after she or he is confirmed are: Coin, Abreeant, Counter ... ... ..."
If the titles, presented in Faiths & Avatars, are used as one title level per character level, then, for a priest of Oghma, we could assume something like this:
1. Seeker, Clr1
2. Senior Seeker, Clr2
3. Loremaster, Clr3
4. Loremaster Amanuensies, Clr4
5. Loremaster Venturer, Clr5
6. Loremaster Bold, Clr6
7. Lore-Scribe of the God, Clr7
8. Wise Anticipator, Clr8
9. Inspirator, Clr9
10. Inspirator High Clr10
11. Atlar, Clr11
12. Higher Atlar, Clr12
Do you have a copy of the free, web enhancement The Leaves of Learning by Eric L Boyd? In page 4 and 6 there are stats for several "clerics" of Oghma, with the following character levels, title, and classes:
1st-level character, Seeker, Clr1
3nd-level character, Lorekeeper, Brd1/Clr2
5th-level character, Lorekeeper Venturer, Clr5
12th-level character, High Atlar, Clr9/Dis3
I assume, that the "Lorekeepers" should have been Loremaster, is strictly following Faiths & Avatars. And, High Atlar coudl have been Higher Atlar. At the moment, I am not double checking towards other sources such as Volo's Guide to the Dalelands ... Still, the above assumption that in average, there is a level per title, is supported by the web enhancement.
Comments? Do you have other sources that suggest a title per level approach?
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Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 21:06:27
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I always assumed they were based on the 1e levels for the classes and, if I recall right, you weren't a named level till 10th level..... So Acolyte would be levels 1 to 9..... But shrug.....
Looking at my NPC list and the clerics, and using Lathander as an example: there's a High Morninglord at 1st level and then a different NPC who is tenth level with the title of High Dawnlord. Of course there is an Altermistress at 10th level as well. Then a Mornmaster and a Lady Sunrise at 11th. Light of Lathander and High Morninglord at 12th. Morninglord at 13th and 14th. However there are two other 14th level chars who have Most High Mornmaster as titles. Then there's a 15th level char that is a Mornmaster. A 16th level char with Most Radiant of Lathander and another 16th level char with Abbess and another 16th with Mornmaster and another 16th with High Morninglord.
Of course those were 1e and 2e NPC's but as we can see, titles seem to jump all over the place. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Aug 2005 21:14:10 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 21:24:00
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I think the 1st edition title table for cleric works in a simpler world, but not quite with the HUGE number of gods available for the realms. I imagine some of the chaotic deities would not even have titles.
I have done some work on that and the faiths I use alot I have already set up tables for. One day I wanted to address every faith in the realms and come up with a title scheme for that.
If I may ask an additional question...
Do you play each faith as having a HIGH OVERPRIEST like a pontifat of something. Just wondering what people thought of that.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 21:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I think the 1st edition title table for cleric works in a simpler world, but not quite with the HUGE number of gods available for the realms. I imagine some of the chaotic deities would not even have titles.
I have done some work on that and the faiths I use alot I have already set up tables for. One day I wanted to address every faith in the realms and come up with a title scheme for that.
If I may ask an additional question...
Do you play each faith as having a HIGH OVERPRIEST like a pontifat of something. Just wondering what people thought of that.
That's why I said it might be based on the 1e named levels. :)
As for your last question, no I don't because most faiths have different leaders for each shrine/church/temple/etc. Most faiths in FR don't seem to have 1 leader over all of the faithful and clergy and temples. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 22:25:03
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Hi Mournblade,
No, no "pontifat". Each faith church has its own structure. I am awere that titles and levels will not go hand in hand 100%.
I like a lot the concept of temple ranks from D&D Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide
(D&D KoK PG). However, one day, I think that a novice can be 1st-level ... and the next day, I think that a novice is not yet a 1st-level ... For example, what is a 12 year old boy who lives and studies in a temple and who, in time, will become a 1st-level Cleric of Lathander? Is he a novice, a postulant ... I am inclined to call him novice, give him a title of Awakened, and give him a temple rank of 0 ... Another example, would be to have a 17 year old novice that is a 1st-level Cleric of Lathander and who is called (titled) Awakened and has temple rank 0.
By the way ... in D&D KoK PG, temple rank 1 lets you perform ceremonies such as marriages and funerals. There is no temple rank 0 ... Still, if I call a cleric for novice (no matter if 0-level or 1st-level), I cannot just let a novice perform a ceremony. Thus, I give that novice a temple rank of 0. What do you think? |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 02:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As for your last question, no I don't because most faiths have different leaders for each shrine/church/temple/etc. Most faiths in FR don't seem to have 1 leader over all of the faithful and clergy and temples.
I'd agree with that for the most part.
I get the feeling though that more militant religions, like the faiths of Bane and Torm, have a more strictly defined overall church hierarchy that stretches across much of the Realms -- this is in comparison to the faiths of Sune and Tymora for example, which I see as having a very loose clerical structure.
Perhaps the various churches of Bane and Torm allow for different leaders for the various temples and clergies, like most faiths, but there may also be certain pathways and guidelines prevalent among these clergies that they must all follow. I would assume that such guidelines also relate to the entirety of either faith.
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Edited by - The Sage on 21 Aug 2005 02:32:59 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 11:30:05
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| What is the highest rank in Helms church? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 11:33:46
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| According to Faiths & Avatars, it is Senior Steeleye, a title that is applied to all senior clergy. The titles: Novice, Adept, TRusty, Alert, Watchknight, Guardian, Overblade, High Watcher, and Senior Steeleye. |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 15:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
According to Faiths & Avatars, it is Senior Steeleye, a title that is applied to all senior clergy. The titles: Novice, Adept, TRusty, Alert, Watchknight, Guardian, Overblade, High Watcher, and Senior Steeleye.
thanks |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 20:31:19
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| Mournblade, you did mention a table of some kind ... could you post a part of it here? khorne, please note that you can trust a cleric with the title of TRusty a bit more than one just titled Trusty It is a kind of Trusty of second level :) Sorry .. I had to make a silly yoke about my minor spelling error ... Have a nice day ... evening ... |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 20:45:05
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1st Edition player's handbook table for clerics:
Level 1 - Acolyte
Level 2 - Adept
Level 3 - Priest
Level 4 - Curate
Level 5 -
Level 6 - Canon
Level 7 - Lama
Level 8 - Patriarch
Level 9 - High Priest
Over 9th level there was High Priest (10 level), High Priest (11 level), and so on.
Cheers
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Omnia sunt communia. |
Edited by - Misericordia on 21 Aug 2005 20:49:15 |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 21:23:47
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Thanks Misericordia!
Hmmm ... 1st edition ... who have played that?!? I started with 2nd edition ... By the way ... a novice ... do you think that such fellow would be allowed to lead a funeral? I am more concerned with the term "novice", and, not possible game aspect of it ... hmmm ... maybe, my writing just does not make sence :( |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 21:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
Thanks Misericordia!
Hmmm ... 1st edition ... who have played that?!? I started with 2nd edition ... By the way ... a novice ... do you think that such fellow would be allowed to lead a funeral? I am more concerned with the term "novice", and, not possible game aspect of it ... hmmm ... maybe, my writing just does not make sence :(
I started off with 1st Edition, I have also played Basic D&D, in which Elf was a class/race, along with Dwarf and Halfling.
Have played 2nd Edition, in fact my own campaigns were a mix of 1st and 2nd Edition rules.
And am currently playing 3.5E |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 22:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
Thanks Misericordia!
Hmmm ... 1st edition ... who have played that?!? I started with 2nd edition ... By the way ... a novice ... do you think that such fellow would be allowed to lead a funeral? I am more concerned with the term "novice", and, not possible game aspect of it ... hmmm ... maybe, my writing just does not make sence :(
I've got all of the 1st edition hardcovers, but I've never played it. There was a guy who tried to get me interested in his 1st edition game... But this was after 3.0 had already come out. And when he started talking about some house rule that allowed mages to fire off "racks" of magic missiles, I decided I wasn't interested. (He actually said that he'd killed giants in one attack, with just magic missiles, because of this rule!)
Now, back on topic... I'd call anyone a novice who was studying to be a priest but hadn't actually acquired any priest levels. And without those levels, I'd not allow them to do too much "priestly" stuff. A novice could help out with ceremonies, but I'd not let one conduct a ceremony without a lot of preparation and supervision. Even then, the ceremonies I'd let a novice perform would be minor ones -- not weddings or funerals or anything like that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 04:16:22
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I figure that BANE, TORM< and TYR have 1 high priest over any other.
With the druids I DO stick to the old 1st edition rules of titles though a Grand druid is usually like a 30th level character instead of a 15th level character. I don't follow the levels just the title for the druids. Any given Druid faith will only have ONE grand Druid. Great Druids usually apply to regions. For example a great druid of Tethyr and a Great Druid of Damara can all exist in one faith.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2005 : 23:12:12
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Hi warlockco,
No, I do not need it. Misericordia posted a list, and I am more interested in figuring out what a Faiths & Avatar novice, adept or acolyte might be. Still, thanks!
From my point of view, a 1st-level Cleric is priest, and not a novice ... And by that, I go with Wooly's descrition:quote:
Now, back on topic... I'd call anyone a novice who was studying to be a priest but hadn't actually acquired any priest levels. And without those levels, I'd not allow them to do too much "priestly" stuff. A novice could help out with ceremonies, but I'd not let one conduct a ceremony without a lot of preparation and supervision. Even then, the ceremonies I'd let a novice perform would be minor ones -- not weddings or funerals or anything like that.
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Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 14:38:59
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| I am looking for the actual titles for the church of Tymora and i need your help, my fellow sages of Candlekeep... I have a character who has earned a place in the church of Tymora through much trouble and turmoil and hard work... But i need the titles. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 15:00:49
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You have to remember that Tymora's church isn't as strictly regimented as Helm's and as such... there really isn't a lot of lore on the hierarchy of the Tymoran faithful.
We do know however that most Tymoran temples are each largely independent of the rest of the faith. F&A suggests that each of these temples and the clergies usually reflect the individual tastes and attitudes of its high priestess or priest. Given that... we can assume that clerical titles among each Tymoran clergy likely differ from temple to temple.
Of course Daramos Lauthyr, the High Priest of the Lady's House in Arabel, has been working to unite the Tymoran faith under one definitive clerical structure -- however most other Tymoran temples have been steadily resisting this change.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Aug 2005 15:05:22 |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 16:44:27
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| OK... I will use my imagination... Thanks |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 17:17:34
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Hi,
There are some titles though ... from Faiths & Avatars:quote:
Among the followers of Tymora titles are used and changed with ease and informality, but "Lord Priest" and "Lady "Priestess" are respectful forms of address that apply to all, and ... ... ...
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Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
Edited by - webmanus on 23 Aug 2005 17:22:27 |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 17:48:16
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| OK... I was looking for something a ltlle bit more flashy... Something impressive like "crusader" or something like that... The character is a fighter and are therefore not going into the clergy in the traditional sence... it is more of an honorary title... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 17:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Faramicos
OK... I was looking for something a ltlle bit more flashy... Something impressive like "crusader" or something like that... The character is a fighter and are therefore not going into the clergy in the traditional sence... it is more of an honorary title...
Call him something like "Lucky Sword" or "Blade of Chance" or "The Lady's Blade"... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Aug 2005 17:54:00 |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 17:57:03
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Lord Crusading Priest 
According to Faiths and Avatars (FA), there are no "crusaders" among the clergy of Tymora. However, there are always exceptions. According to FA a "favored of Tymora" is a being chosen by the goddess to enter the clergy. Maybe, you could call the character for "Lord Crusader", "Lord Crusader of Tymora", or "Crusader of Tymora". |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
Edited by - webmanus on 23 Aug 2005 18:00:41 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 18:03:21
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My assumption has always been that lawful faiths have a strict (or fairly strict) hierarchy of titles, while chaotic faiths have a loose (or fairly loose) hierarchy of titles, if any. Neutral faiths (on the law/chaos axis) fall in the middle.
In other words, if you're a cleric of Tymora, make up any damn title you want! ;-)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2005 : 18:12:04
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| Eric, as you wrote those fine books, maybe, you could explain what in D&D 3.0 game terms novices, as presented in Faiths and Avatars, are. For example, a novice of the church of Lathander, would that fellow be a 1st-lvel Cleric? |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 01:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
Hi,
There are some titles though ... from Faiths & Avatars:quote:
Among the followers of Tymora titles are used and changed with ease and informality, but "Lord Priest" and "Lady "Priestess" are respectful forms of address that apply to all, and ... ... ...
Yes, but as the text itself states... they are largely informal titles -- and they probably change depending on the tastes of the individual temple itself.
For example, "Lord Priest" could just as easily be "High Priest". When I think of specific clerical titles for a particular church, I think of titles that are indicative of the church and faith itself, rather than generalised titles, like those of "High Priest" or "Lord Priest". After all you're unlikely to see the title of "Watchknight" appear among the Tymoran clergy because that title is tied specifically to Helmite worship and has no basis in the Tymoran faith.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2005 : 12:36:34
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| Thank you all for the great examples and general advice... The session is to take place tomorrow and i think i have an OK general idea of what the title is going to be... I will let you know what i decided on and what the player thought of it... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Church Titles & Character Levels
