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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
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Malaysia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:02:47
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I tried looking around, but never actually did find anything on ceremonies and rites regarding weddings. Lots of questions to ponder about this, and I don't like just skipping the whole ceremony, especially since the players in my current campaign that I'm playing in are somewhat...heavy role players.
Three questions I'm really interested in:
1) Is it restricted to only some faiths?
2) Descriptions for the ceremonies (what words are spoken, clothes worn, activities, etc.)
3) What happens if a couple from different faiths choose to wed?
To the curious, I'm asking because a certain paladin of Lathander has fallen for a bard who follows Mystra. The players seem intent on making a wedding as soon as they're done with killing things (which is another few more days to go).
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Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:29:00
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Weddings are one of the neglected ceremonies that Ed never got to detail.
I managed to get him to partly detail Sharess's and Lliira's and they are in his logs. See the link in my sig. :)
Tymora's is in the Spellfire novels.
Otherwise, that's it. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Aug 2005 01:56:23 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:30:49
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Hmm I do not know about dogma of all churches/temples , it certainly is clear that some religions do not have mariage at all (Lolth comes to mind where males are owned more then being selected as a life mate).
1st Edition aparently had no concept of mariage at all, 2nd certainly did recognise the concept. I expect that 3rd edition has mariage available.
As for ceromoes that do exist I expect that they are adjusted to the faith. I did develpe a gerneric wedding ceremony that recognised that there were deities (as oposed to "there can only be one") that could be adjusted to individual beliefs. I can 4 post a wedding if one wants no frills or 20 to 30 post providing a more formal ceremony.
I do not see any conflict with Realms characters having a different diety from getting married if deitys are reasonable aligned or one decides to switch patron. It should not be a problem unless belief is such that the alignments are in direct conflict.
I can not see any reason for deity conflict between Lathander and Mystra followers, though a Paladin might want to convert spose, it certainly should not be a requirement. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:36:08
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I don't think having an officiant of a different faith would be a problem as long as the officiant isn't of a faith opposed to either of those participating. I can see a lot of Llirans performing ceremonies for others, and as the god of Law I can also see a lot of Tyrrans doing this as well.
I don't think that would be any stranger than funeral being attended by a devotee of Kelemvor. I image there is a general respect of the "spheres of influence" among followers of other gods.
In your case though, I would almost guess that a Lathanderite would perform the ceremony. I could be wrong, but I don't see Marriage being a specific duty of a Mystran. But hey, I could be wrong. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:45:28
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Other than the intermarital strife with the always optimistic Lathanderite, the wedding should be fine. I think GMs have creative freedom when it comes to weddings. I would check the 3 part 2nd Ed books just to be sure, but I don't remember any specific guidelines...
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 14:55:47
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Hey... marriages of Sune might be fun to attend.. though not too sure about marriages of Loviatar... eek!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
Edited by - Crennen FaerieBane on 18 Aug 2005 14:56:06 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 16:15:28
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| Crennen, if you think Sune's would be fun, you should read Ed's explanation of a Sharess wedding. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 16:40:46
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| Although it's certainly a Tymoran ceremony in Spellfire, Tymora is just one part of it -- it calls on 'a friend', 'Tymora', 'a good woman of the dale', 'a good man of the dale', 'the Lord of the Dale', and 'the people of the dale'. Since Tymora's Church has only been in Shadowdale for three years at this point yet everyone seems very comfortable with the ceremony, I'd guess that this is a local folk ceremony as performed in a Tymoran context, and that generally wedding rites vary from very doctrinally religious to hardly at all. |
Edited by - Faraer on 18 Aug 2005 16:41:06 |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 16:45:58
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Now here's a question:
Are there such things as Marriages of Lloth, or do high priestesses simply keep a...well...penthouse of concorts to suit her needs...
And actually, perhaps the realms is much more like ancient greek mythologies: not all deities have a stand point of marriage (in the case of greek mythologies, only Hera does). Heavy worhsipers of Athena would still look to Hera for marriage (or atleast I think they did). Mournblade would probably know more on this. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 17:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Heavy worhsipers of Athena would still look to Hera for marriage (or atleast I think they did). Mournblade would probably know more on this.
In the ancient world there was not "heavy" worshippers. Everyone believed in all the pantheon, and used to make offerings to the god connected with action they had to do.
In case of weddings, it was'nt a religious ceremony, but still the girl prayed for the blessing of Hera (patron of weddings and women sexuality).
In the realms usually my characters seek the blessing of Lathander for their weddings: it's a new dawn of life. |
Omnia sunt communia. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 17:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Now here's a question:
Are there such things as Marriages of Lloth, or do high priestesses simply keep a...well...penthouse of concorts to suit her needs...
In general a male is kept by Preistess. If there are any marriages at all most likely would be to form alliances and be a civil as oposed to religious mariage. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 17:35:07
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If you want to know more about drow "marriages", Homeland would be a good read. A Matron Mother just basically appoints a "patron" for the house and his only task is to "service" her until she gets bored, and the male either gets demoted back to being a commoner or sacrificed to Lolth.
In the novel, Matron Malice appointed a commoner named Rizzen to be her patron, but she still had relationships with Zaknefein. So basically, there's really no such thing as a Lolth marriage. Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 19:48:35
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quote:
If you want to know more about drow "marriages", Homeland would be a good read. A Matron Mother just basically appoints a "patron" for the house and his only task is to "service" her until she gets bored, and the male either gets demoted back to being a commoner or sacrificed to Lolth.
In the novel, Matron Malice appointed a commoner named Rizzen to be her patron, but she still had relationships with Zaknefein. So basically, there's really no such thing as a Lolth marriage. Lol.
Ha, so in Drow culture, husbands are like Christmas trees: you use them closely as you desire for a good portion of the right season, and then toss them out, or burn them appropriately.
quote:
To the curious, I'm asking because a certain paladin of Lathander has fallen for a bard who follows Mystra. The players seem intent on making a wedding as soon as they're done with killing things (which is another few more days to go).
Somehow, I see a wedding band of a ring in the shape of the weave, covered in flame. Or maybe a flame covered in weave. Depends on who is the dominant one in the relationship. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
Edited by - Sir Luther Cromwell on 18 Aug 2005 19:49:10 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 20:53:27
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quote:
Somehow, I see a wedding band of a ring in the shape of the weave, covered in flame. Or maybe a flame covered in weave. Depends on who is the dominant one in the relationship.
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 00:45:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Now here's a question:
Are there such things as Marriages of Lloth, or do high priestesses simply keep a...well...penthouse of concorts to suit her needs...
In general a male is kept by Preistess. If there are any marriages at all most likely would be to form alliances and be a civil as oposed to religious mariage.
There may be weddings amongst the commoner class of the drow, you know the ones who run the shops in the Bazaar and all of that. they always struck me as not necessarily that evil, just kind of evil - in my game, the Drow are split into the Houses and the Guilds. The Guilds being just a bit less chaotic, as some coin is wont to do.
As for the priestesses - well, that's why there are patrons and boytoys. If you remember Daughter of the Drow, Liriel espies one of the Mistresses at the Academy (Faen Tlabbar) constantly seducing men.. I think it just depends on the flavor of the day when your a Priestess of Lolth.. but one things for sure - no marriages ever. I think they make a priestess that begins to care for a male kill said male immediately.. correct me if I am wrong :)
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 01:23:35
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I really think the wedding depends on the Ethics of the Alignment. I imagine a lawful wedding would be a little closer to our concepts of the wedding. I only give this thought when it comes up in specific situations. Then I make a note in one of the gods books about where I wrote the ceremony down.
I would love to hear Ed Greenwood's Sharess wedding tale though. Is there a link for this that can be provided?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 01:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I really think the wedding depends on the Ethics of the Alignment. I imagine a lawful wedding would be a little closer to our concepts of the wedding. I only give this thought when it comes up in specific situations. Then I make a note in one of the gods books about where I wrote the ceremony down.
I would love to hear Ed Greenwood's Sharess wedding tale though. Is there a link for this that can be provided?
All of his replies are in the files I keep and update every monday. See my sig, as I said above. :) They are in the 05 doc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 01:48:13
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Thank you
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
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Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 02:04:36
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| Hm...is it possible for priests from both faiths to officiate (is that the word?) the wedding? |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 02:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Hm...is it possible for priests from both faiths to officiate (is that the word?) the wedding?
I don't see why not. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 02:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Hm...is it possible for priests from both faiths to officiate (is that the word?) the wedding?
Well, it depends if they are opposite faiths. I mean, the wedding wouldn't go well if you've got Tymora's priest on one side and a priestess of Beshaba on the other. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
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Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 03:27:28
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Hm...is it possible for priests from both faiths to officiate (is that the word?) the wedding?
Well, it depends if they are opposite faiths. I mean, the wedding wouldn't go well if you've got Tymora's priest on one side and a priestess of Beshaba on the other.
True enough.
Ok, sorry about this but here's another question: Do wedding ceremonies change from region to region, even if the faith stays the same? Like a [insert faith here] wedding along the Sword Coast and one in the Dalelands? |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 03:35:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Ok, sorry about this but here's another question: Do wedding ceremonies change from region to region, even if the faith stays the same? Like a [insert faith here] wedding along the Sword Coast and one in the Dalelands?
I'm sure they would. A wedding of Lathander worshippers in the Dales, for example, would likely be a smaller, simpler affair than one in Waterdeep. The Dales wedding would likely emphasize nature and life, while the Waterdeep one would likely emphasize opportunity and wealth.
In other words, the character of the place would be reflected in the ceremony. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Aug 2005 03:36:43 |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
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Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 03:56:31
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*Sighs tiredly* Let's see, got most of the stuff ready, now all I need is to figure out what ceremony to perform. Stupid scripts...aaagh! Can't they just take pleasure in plain and simple hack n' slash?
On a lighter note, the party cleric is going to do be the officiant, and she's already decided what line to end with: "You may now bed the bride." At least she's writing her own words for the day. |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 04:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Ok, sorry about this but here's another question: Do wedding ceremonies change from region to region, even if the faith stays the same? Like a [insert faith here] wedding along the Sword Coast and one in the Dalelands?
I'm sure they would. A wedding of Lathander worshippers in the Dales, for example, would likely be a smaller, simpler affair than one in Waterdeep. The Dales wedding would likely emphasize nature and life, while the Waterdeep one would likely emphasize opportunity and wealth.
I would agree.
Of special note would be the local customs and traditions which are specific to one region, among smaller populations, which have probably been worked into many of the ceremonies joining two people together in marriage.
So while the basic practice of a Sunite wedding ceremony would likely be the same across the Realms -- small variations in technique and overall operation would probably be the result of influence from local beliefs and cultural customs indicative of that region.
quote:
In other words, the character of the place would be reflected in the ceremony.
I'd follow on from this and also suggest that climatic conditions and seasonal variations also influence how the ceremony is conducted.
Nature can be a wonderful complement to a wedding ceremony... and fields of bright and blooming flowers would certainly make a better backdrop for an outdoor ceremony than would the wet, dreary, and overcast days which frequent Deepwinter.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 03:46:09
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I play religion in the realms as one pantheon of many gods. There are no tymora weddings or lathanderites wedding. When a weding ceremony is to take place, a cleric of Chauntea Goddess of fertility and mother of all) is asked to perform the wedding. If there is no cleric of Chauntea is available in a particular village, one must be fetched form the nearest temple.
The same goes for funerals. Even if the deceased has Tempus as patron. Only cleric of Kelemvor can perform the rituals to accompany the soul to the realm of death. A priest of Tempus would be there also of course but the Kelemvor is the god of death. After the ceremony, any tempus rituals can be performed in honor of the deceased.
That's just the way i like to play the gods of course. I see by the others response it is not very popular but i thought to give another point of view.
Pat. |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 04:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrakis
I play religion in the realms as one pantheon of many gods. There are no tymora weddings or lathanderites wedding. When a weding ceremony is to take place, a cleric of Chauntea Goddess of fertility and mother of all) is asked to perform the wedding. If there is no cleric of Chauntea is available in a particular village, one must be fetched form the nearest temple.
The same goes for funerals. Even if the deceased has Tempus as patron. Only cleric of Kelemvor can perform the rituals to accompany the soul to the realm of death. A priest of Tempus would be there also of course but the Kelemvor is the god of death. After the ceremony, any tempus rituals can be performed in honor of the deceased.
That's just the way i like to play the gods of course. I see by the others response it is not very popular but i thought to give another point of view.
Pat.
I can see your point, to a certain extent. But what happens when both people worship a particular deity? Why shouldn't a priest of that faith officiate? |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 05:55:58
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quote:
I can see your point, to a certain extent. But what happens when both people worship a particular deity? Why shouldn't a priest of that faith officiate?
People from the heartlands venerates the pantheon, not one god. Everyone chooses a patron, like the rules says, a favorite god that fit more closely to ones interests but everyone pray to every god.
A merchant might have waukeen as a patron deity and considering his job, he will pray waukeen the most. But before going on a sea voyage, he will pray Umberlly, before a deal he will pray Tymora maybe, for luck. Every god for every situation. If his son marries a nice girl from a merchant familly that for some reason has Sune as a Patron deity, they will ask a priest of Chauntea to bless their marriage and perform the ceremony because that is what priests of Chauntea do. It would be unthinkable for my fearunians to think otherwise. Its just the way it is. Waukeen couldn't care less about blessing a marriage and it is not in her priest job description to do so. It's just Chauntea's thing. Like funerals for Kelemvor 's priest.
Another ceremony that is god specific is the birthing. A newborn is welcome in the world and presented to the pantheon by a priest of Lanthander. whoever the patron deities of the parents are, it is Lathander that welcomes babies into the world. A patron god is chosen by its parents at the birthing, usually their own patron deity. The child will decide when he is of age, if he wants to keep the patron god of his parents or change to one that is more fitting to his preferences. Lathander priest perform all birthing ceremonies.
Religion occupies a very important part in my games. I've got a bunch of stuff written about these customs. all in french thought.
I hope this clarifies how i interpret FR religion in my campaigns.
English is not my native tongue so sometimes i make semantic mistakes all the time. I appologies if i'm not making sense :)
Pat |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 17:08:54
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My point is, though, that if two people strongly identify with one deity above all others, then they're going to want a priest of that deity officiating at their wedding.
If I lived in the Realms, for example, I would follow Lurue. Sure, I'd pray to Tymora if I needed some luck, to Waukeen for some money, Chauntea for bountiful crops, and Torm for skill in battle. But those would all be casual worship -- I pray to them when I need to, but Lurue is the one that gets all my attention.
Now, after praying to Sune, I find a nice girl and want to settle down. Said girl, like me, venerates Lurue more than any other deity. So we're going to get married. Now why would we choose any priest other than one of Lurue?
And what if we were cityfolk, and Chauntea had no part in our daily lives? Why would we choose one of her priests?
Chauntea is not the goddess of marriage -- the Realms, I believe, does not have a deity of marriage. So while one deity or another may be appropriate for a marriage ceremony, there's no reason to stick with just one. As we've seen from Ed's writings, people can and do choose priests of other faiths to marry them.
Yes, people in the Realms can and do worship many deities, even on a daily basis. But in most cases, the one they identify most strongly with -- their patron deity -- is likely the one they'll turn to in marriage and in other important events. |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 00:46:55
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I explained the way religion works in my realms to the best of my ability.
It was not my intention to try to convince anyone that my way of doing things is the right way. I was just presenting my ideas. I guess it's not the way things are done in «canon» realm.
I know it's not writen in the books that Chauntea is the marriage goddess and frankly, i'm sure there are lots of subjects for which the books haven't identified a god to take care of it. Doesn't mean one can't decide an existing god can add it to its portfolio. I decided that chauntea liked to take care of marriages and newlyweds. It felt right to have the great mother take care of this.
I play the pantheon theme to its fullest, much like the greeks treated gods. Choosing a patron deity doesn't mean you forget all other gods and just play lip service to them.
The pantheon of gods is a whole, not an ensemble of seperate parts. If you live in my realm and follow the precepts of main pantheon of gods then they all influence your life. Not just the one you chose cause you felt more close to it.
No one feels bad about being married by a priest of chauntea because he follows Torm or Tymora. Quite the contrary. A follower of Torm would incist to have representative of his patron deity to the ceremony to share his joy with all his friends but he would never think about have a priest of Torm perform the ceremony.
The official pantheon is composed of only the major deities of Faerun. The other deities are not part of the official pantheon. A follower of Lurue could well be married by a priest of Lurue because he hasn't chosen a god of the main pantheon. I haven't put much thought about what are the customs of non major deities.
I haven't detailed the non-human gods. I don't know if i would apply the same rules for them. Maybe the elven pantheon works just as you suggest. Each god can perform all the sacrements for their followers. It hasn't come up yet :)
I haven't covered the other minor gods like Lurue either. They are not part of the main pantheon.
Even for city folks, Chauntea can be very important. just ask every noble houses of Waterdeep that own very productive lands outside the city how Chauntea is important for their revenues :) Even them, if they follow the precepts of the main pantheon of gods, get married by a Chauntea priest.
I wouldn't want this discussion to turn into a debate about who is right though. I just wanted to present to the original poster the way i handle weddings in my own realms. Nothing more. If what i wrote gave the impression that i was presenting the «official» way to handle things, then i am sorry.
PAt |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 18:06:30
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| Wasn´t there a wedding of two chaunteans in the "Beyond the High road" book. You know the crown princess and the guy who later turned into a gasneth. Parents of the new Azoun. |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Weddings in the realms
