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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 00:22:04
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My question regards cognitive, emotional, and ego development for races that have greater longevity than humans, such as elves. According to PHB elves reach the age of majority at around 110 years. Some folks extrapolate that because the elven life span is much longer (in some cases exceeding 700 years) that personal development will proceed at a slower pace compared with humans. For example, I have seen some argue that an elf of forty years would be developmentally equivalent to a twelve year old human child, i.e., the 40 y/o elf's powers of reasoning, emotional, maturity, and fund of life experience would be such.
This seems based on faulty logic. For an elf to have not yet arrived at the elven 'age of majority', which is when that society considers an individual capable of assuming the responsibilities of adult life, doesn't necessarily equate with an elf in a mature body of 40 years behaving with the maturity of a human twelve year old. The age at which the culture considers the member of society to have arrived at adulthood isn't necessarily equivalent to when the individual is capable of functioning on par with a human adult.
In other words, although the races with greater longevity are quite 'young' at 20 years, they may still be on par with a human at 20 in terms of cognitive, emtional, and ego development. I would think the difference is that as they advance in age, they will become far more mature than any human simply because they live much longer. Because these races live considerably longer, they will develop a capacity for deeper reflection as they advance in age. And they do have a larger fund of experience to draw from as they age beyond the life span of a human. But that doesn't make them comparatively delayed as they grow up, when compared alongside humans. See what I'm saying?
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Edited by - Lemernis on 10 Aug 2005 13:25:34
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Arlenion
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 01:16:01
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I believe that longer lived races are likely to have a harder time developing the wisdom to use their knowledge effectively in the same amount of time but they would still have as much knowledge as a human or halfling of their age. An elf that is 110 years old has had a lot of time to learn about the world around them so they would know more, but they are only slightly less impulsive than a twenty year old human, as evidenced by their willingness to go risk their life in pursuit of "adventure". However elves seem to develop more wisdom as time goes on than humans in the novels.
Such races would not have the maturity of a human of their own age but the difference is not quite proportional to the age of majority. For example their is a 90 year old elf in Evereska who acted like a completely mature adult. You also have to remember that strife and war causes people to mature faster and the human societies has more strife than elven or dwarven culture and that humans have more responsibilities earlier in life as reflected in the earlier age of majority. |
Edited by - Arlenion on 10 Aug 2005 01:21:15 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 02:32:33
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Actually, a lot of these issues are addressed in the Races of the Wild sourcebook from 3E. They mention that Elves actually grow to have the same wisdom/learning as humans not long after the same age, but they choose to remain amongst their villages and communities to learn how to become self-sufficient before they go off and adventure (around 100 years of age).
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 02:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Actually, a lot of these issues are addressed in the Races of the Wild sourcebook from 3E. They mention that Elves actually grow to have the same wisdom/learning as humans not long after the same age, but they choose to remain amongst their villages and communities to learn how to become self-sufficient before they go off and adventure (around 100 years of age).
C-Fb
Myself, I wouldn't base FR elves on those elves. Ed has said, in more then one reply, that there are things in the core and generic material that do not pertain to FR elves. :) The no body hair of the core material, for instance. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 06:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Actually, a lot of these issues are addressed in the Races of the Wild sourcebook from 3E. They mention that Elves actually grow to have the same wisdom/learning as humans not long after the same age, but they choose to remain amongst their villages and communities to learn how to become self-sufficient before they go off and adventure (around 100 years of age).
C-Fb
Myself, I wouldn't base FR elves on those elves. Ed has said, in more then one reply, that there are things in the core and generic material that do not pertain to FR elves. :) The no body hair of the core material, for instance.
And neither would I. Ed's quotes are more than enough for me to appreciate (and be content) wih the differences between the FR elven races and those of generic D&D.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 10:30:49
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If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 11:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Are there any elves that have facial hair?
I seem to recall, in Farthest Reach, mention of an elf or two with facial hair. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 13:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Actually, a lot of these issues are addressed in the Races of the Wild sourcebook from 3E. They mention that Elves actually grow to have the same wisdom/learning as humans not long after the same age, but they choose to remain amongst their villages and communities to learn how to become self-sufficient before they go off and adventure (around 100 years of age).
C-Fb
Can you please tell me which page that is on, and if it isn't too much trouble include just a small blurb?
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Myself, I wouldn't base FR elves on those elves. Ed has said, in more then one reply, that there are things in the core and generic material that do not pertain to FR elves. :) The no body hair of the core material, for instance.
Can you recall any of the further distinctions Ed Greenwood makes re: elves of the Forgotten Realms? Anything you can think of that would be relevant to this question? |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 13:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Are there any elves that have facial hair?
I seem to recall, in Farthest Reach, mention of an elf or two with facial hair.
Arun Maerdrym wore a full beard and there are those old enough to know them both that comment Khelben looks amazingly like his father, aside from the white wedge in his beard and the lack of pointed ears. Granted, Arun was a half-elf, but still....
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 13:25:49
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| It can be quite true that elves tend to be wiser with the passing of time, but some become wiser and better learned as well as using their wisdom to help others. Some become wiser and yet more evil. Just like the blunt use or abuse of High Magics by some elves, I am quite certain that elves can be said to truly master High Magics once past the 500th year of their lives. |
Edited by - silvermage on 10 Aug 2005 13:26:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 14:40:18
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Are there any elves that have facial hair?
And in DL also... A particularly elderly elf can display whisps of a beard after many centuries of life.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 15:54:16
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Okay, I see that on p. 90 of Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves a section called "Teaching" which states that elves are regarded as children untl the age of 60, and that they are considered "impressionable" by their elders until the age of 50. Until around 50 the focus is almost entirely on education. At the age of 50 they may begin pursuing a profession.
But by the same token, they are are typically literate before the age of 10 and therefore are cognitively on par with humans.
Near as I can tell, the relatively 'sheltered' existence of an elf for the first 6 decades of life is an elven cultural slant, and not a matter of maturing at a slower rate biologically, or developing at a slower rate cognitively and emotionally. By the standards of their longevity, the elves of Semberholme do not consider their kind to be adults until around 60 (? or at least finished with their basic education about the world and elven history and ready to pursue a sort of apprenticeship their chosen profession), but that is because they enjoy a far longer time in which to educate their young. Elves have a different standard, culturally, by which to measure wisdom. "Impressionable" has a rather different meaning for someone who lives for 900 years compared with someone with a lifespan of 90 years. Here "impressionable" is not equivalent to a forty year old elf thinking and behaving like a twelve year old human. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 10 Aug 2005 16:35:10 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 16:16:25
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Well - Kuje, Sage - I wasn't necessarily talking about the descriptions of elves or whether they have facial hair - but all elves did develop from one central race (2E Complete Book of Elves) that still have the same practices.
Since no one sourcebook puts the definitive time down for elven cognitive development, I would use many different sources to create an elven feel that suits your game and not get locked into the confines of "canon." After all, the games exist for fun and should be adapted to the group you play in.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 16:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well - Kuje, Sage - I wasn't necessarily talking about the descriptions of elves or whether they have facial hair - but all elves did develop from one central race (2E Complete Book of Elves) that still have the same practices.
Since no one sourcebook puts the definitive time down for elven cognitive development, I would use many different sources to create an elven feel that suits your game and not get locked into the confines of "canon." After all, the games exist for fun and should be adapted to the group you play in.
C-Fb
Elves are older then the Complete Book of Elves. :) And I'd use FR material for FR, since elves in FR are different then core material. And with the changes to lore, I wouldn't say that that theory is the same. Yes they all came from Corellon but FR elves, as we have seen, are different then the elves of the other settings.
Of course fun is more important but he asked a canon question and so I gave a canon answer.
Now the one who can truly answer this is Ed and Steven. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 10 Aug 2005 17:04:07 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 16:59:32
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quote:
Originally posted by LemernisCan you recall any of the further distinctions Ed Greenwood makes re: elves of the Forgotten Realms? Anything you can think of that would be relevant to this question?
Some don't have to Reverie, some can sleep, some don't have to do either. Elves also get energy from Faerun/the Weave itself. He's thrown tidbits out over the past 2 years and yes they are in my file or the PDF's/HTML's of those files stored here at Candlekeep. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well - Kuje, Sage - I wasn't necessarily talking about the descriptions of elves or whether they have facial hair - but all elves did develop from one central race (2E Complete Book of Elves) that still have the same practices.
Since no one sourcebook puts the definitive time down for elven cognitive development, I would use many different sources to create an elven feel that suits your game and not get locked into the confines of "canon." After all, the games exist for fun and should be adapted to the group you play in.
C-Fb
Elves are older then the Complete Book of Elves. :) And I'd use FR material for FR, since elves in FR are different then core material.
True enough - I just like to grab all the information that I have on a subject and sift through it to get a complete picture. If we all just used core stuff, we wouldn't have have the brilliant things in the realms. :) Point taken. :)
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:09:46
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Thanks for referencing The Complete Book of Elves
I see now now in that 2e source book (The Complete Book of Elves) that elves do continue to behave childishly until approx. 65-75 years of age. And also, they typically do not exceed 4 ft in height by that age. Around the age of 75 they experience a growth spurt and grow to a height of 5 to 5 1/2 feet. So according to that core source a 20 year old elf would be delayed compared with a 20 year old human.
Is there any more specific source material for FR elves that is in line with Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves? I.e., FR-specific material that might suggest that FR elves mature at a rate that is more comensurate with humans? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:27:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Is there any more specific source material for FR elves that is in line with Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves? I.e., FR-specific material that might suggest that FR elves mature at a rate that is more comensurate with humans?
I can't think of anything else that might be of interest about this topic. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Thanks for referencing The Complete Book of Elves
I see now now in that 2e source book (The Complete Book of Elves) that elves do continue to behave childishly until approx. 65-75 years of age. And also, they typically do not exceed 4 ft in height by that age. Around the age of 75 they experience a growth spurt and grow to a height of 5 to 5 1/2 feet. So according to that core source a 20 year old elf would be delayed compared with a 20 year old human.
Is there any more specific source material for FR elves that is in line with Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves? I.e., FR-specific material that might suggest that FR elves mature at a rate that is more comensurate with humans?
Well, I can only reference Salvatore's Drizzt novels which put Drizzt around 30 when he deals with his warrior training school - and in the Hunter's Blade trilogy, he is only 87 years old, and he's been doing his thing for about 50 or so years, which means he matured somewhere around 30 - at least to his fighting prime.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 18:02:05
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| While reading FR novels I have never been under the impression that elves grow up (relative) maturity that much slower than humans. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 19:03:19
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That's what I picked up from the novels as well. I always thought they might have to train a little more and so aren't mature at like 18, but that around 30, they are the equivalent to an 18 year old human. What else can explain Drizzt being a 16th level character before he is even one century in age?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 20:22:40
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| The incredibly hostile habitat of Underdark, and the drow society, both, would tend to push the young to become self-reliant as soon as possible, I would think. There's a Dragon Magazine issue that details how drow children are taught at a very young age to plot assassinations and all sorts of atrocities. According to some, the method behind Lolth's madness of pitting drow houses against one another is to make the drow as hardy as possible, and thereby produce a kind of super race. Anyway, whereas surface elves dote on their young, the elves of the Underdark seem to have more of a sink or swim approach to childrearing. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 21:39:33
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Could be, but also - Dark Elves must mature physically that early as well. No way that young Drizzt could be such a good swordsman unless he was both physically and mentally mature. Whether drow society pushed him forward or not - he must have been physically mature as well by his 30th birthday.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 12:49:55
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| I wonder if this is worth bothering Ed Greenwood about in the 'ask Ed' thread... Ah what the heck, I'll throw it out. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 00:16:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
The incredibly hostile habitat of Underdark, and the drow society, both, would tend to push the young to become self-reliant as soon as possible, I would think. There's a Dragon Magazine issue that details how drow children are taught at a very young age to plot assassinations and all sorts of atrocities. According to some, the method behind Lolth's madness of pitting drow houses against one another is to make the drow as hardy as possible, and thereby produce a kind of super race. Anyway, whereas surface elves dote on their young, the elves of the Underdark seem to have more of a sink or swim approach to childrearing.
Indeed, the idea of selective breeding and survival of the fittest is mentioned in the FRCS with reference to their ability modifiers. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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elven cognitive, emotional, & ego development
