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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 09:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
A artic dwarf isn't that special and song dragons have been featured in recent nocels before (Elminster Daughter).
And an Avariel isn't that much more special than a Drow also he isn't really a part of the party but stands rather alone. That leaves only Dorn himself as "OMGWTFSPECIAL!11!"
I don't think I've seen an arctic dwarf in a Realms novel before. Thus, it's pretty damn unusual. To say the least. Song dragons are rarer and more SPESHUL than chromatic or even metallic dragons; as a major character, or part of the adventuring party, a dragon is downright unheard of, or nearly so. Drow are a lot more numerous than Avariels. Dorn's a half-golem. I stand by what I said. :p |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 20:29:18
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| Considering on what characters many other novels focus: Chosen, Good Drow, Spellfire Wielder or Gods a half golem and a song dragon are rather uninteresting. Of course there are also books which feature more normal people but the cast of YotD is no more special/strange than the characters from other books. You are just already used to seeing them that they aren't special to you anymore. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 21:11:12
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I like Dorn because of his gruff, laconic nature. A lot of the fun of the first book came from the banter between Dorn and the other party members--Will and Pavel would want to gallavant off on some wild idea, and Dorn would flatly say, "no". I can't speak for everyone, but at times I thought it was hilarious (and it is good for at least one person in the group to be practical). I thought the second novel in the series suffered because the group was split up, and there wasn't as much talking to each other.
The romance does feel a bit rushed to me, if nothing else. Also, I have to admit I was a little put off by the plethora of "exotic" characters hanging around, but I like Mr. Byers as an author and don't really want to begrudge him for that. Maybe he was dying to try out an arctic dwarf character and this was finally his chance to do so, for example. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 23:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
Considering on what characters many other novels focus: Chosen, Good Drow, Spellfire Wielder or Gods a half golem and a song dragon are rather uninteresting. Of course there are also books which feature more normal people but the cast of YotD is no more special/strange than the characters from other books. You are just already used to seeing them that they aren't special to you anymore.
Taken individually, none of the characters would be terribly special. But come on, how can it be normal to have such a cast? Of each race (arctic dwarf, half-golem, song dragon, and avariel), you might find one or two in any major city of the Heartlands -- if that many. Finding them all in one group? Nay. It's like digging into a haystack and finding 5 needles, all neat and in a row. It's just not going to happen. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2005 : 00:32:58
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| Also, I disagree with the argument that many (if not most) novels are about Chosen, gods, drow, and the like. What about the Songs and Swords books? Those books star a human and a half-elf (and other humans, elves, and half-elves). Those characters are remarkable in terms of what they do, but not in terms of their race. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 Sep 2005 00:33:14 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2005 : 22:59:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Actually, I like Dorn. I think it is a nice twist to apply a template to the main character in a novel. I have thought about using half-golems and NPCs/minions of a villain in my campaign, so I was positively surprised by Dorn in the series.
Don't get me wrong - I love fluff over crunch any time - but it is rare for an author to actually dare to use "rare" or "special" NPCs in FR novels. It is also rare that an author actually uses accessories and rulebooks in this way.
I don't mind him being a half-golem -- that is kinda interesting. My problem is that he's a half-golem in a group of other exotic races.
Seriously, what are the odds of a half-golem, an arctic dwarf, a human, a halfling, a song dragon, and an avariel meeting?
That sounds almost like the beginning of a joke... "So a half-golem, an arctic dwarf, and an avariel all walk into a tavern. The barmaid says..." 
You have a very good point there, Wooly! That is probably the only problem I had with this trilogy... the most absurd character being the avariel duelist in a human city. It seems that Richard has tried to aviod using any "common"/cliche races in the book, but it feels so forced and clumsy that it becomes a kind of joke. Dorn is a solid character, but I wouldn't mind if his adventuring companions represented more... ahem, "realistic" races.
Maybe they all met in a tavern, where a barmaid asked them: "Excuse me, are you all part of the same freak show?" |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Ebonshine
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2005 : 20:45:38
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Best character of the series is the Avariel.
I like that he cast off his elven heritage and chose a human lifestyle instead, to the point of viewing most things elven with contempt or apathy. Something that I've not read about happening with another elf.
I liked Dorn because of his laconic nature as well and his strong hatred for all things dragon but that has faded considering his rapid and ridiculous fondness for the Song Dragon. In my opinion it would have been far more interesting to have him bitter and hateful to her but forced to work with her and then when its over kill her or himself be killed by her or they part company as enemies.
The whole romance thing is ludicrous in my opinion, not only because of it happening so quickly but because of whom the dragon chose. Think about it, here is a dragon that despite being goodly aligned still considers herself and other dragons superior to the "small folk" as they refer to them and who can blame them as this is the truth when comparing dragons to humans, dwarves, etc. This dragon is a thing of beauty in both form and song. This dragon then finds a deformed, magically mutated, ugly human that hates dragons more than anything and has made it his life work to kill them.
And she falls in love with him?
I mean if she had to fall in love with one of the characters it should have been the cleric of Lathander or the Avariel not the deformed half-golem.
Seems forced and contrived to me and sadly I saw it coming a mile away but hoped it wouldn't happen.
So, yeah I liked Dorn at the start because the character was enigmatic in his hatred and his appearance but now he is just another love struck freak much like any other beauty and the beast combination. |
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TylerXKJ
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 00:50:41
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Their "relationship" is only a small part of the series which is fine to me. Mr Byers isn't Shakespeare but I felt that Dorn and KaraACHOOGAZUNTIGHT had time to start feeeling things. Dorn's kind of like a wounded bird that she wants to nurse back to health. A bitter, angry, more-metal-than-man bird, but still a creature she feels sympathy for. I personally can't wait for Sammaster to meet the party and wipe the floor with their entrails. Seriously, Sammy is an epic level character and while high level, Dorn and company are mice to him. It'll be fun to read how they tangle with him.
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TheBard
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 07:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Seriously, what are the odds of a half-golem, an arctic dwarf, a human, a halfling, a song dragon, and an avariel meeting?
Actually, most RPG partys look like this.
And how realistic is that? Party makeup in RPGs doesn't always make a good party makeup in a novel. It's one of my problems with this trilogy, too -- too many OMGWTFSPECIAL!11! characters.
Am I the only one that finds people talking about stuff being "realistic" in a fantasy novel amusing? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 09:43:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TheBard
Am I the only one that finds people talking about stuff being "realistic" in a fantasy novel amusing?
And am I the only one who finds this particular counter-argument nonsensical? Fantasy has to adhere to its own internal logic. Even in the Realms, the likelihood of a party to consist of this many exotic individuals is slim to nil. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 11:25:34
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| Indeed. Even in sci-fi and fantasy, there has to be believability. If you can't suspend disbelief, there's no point in reading. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 17:10:44
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Agrees with Winterfox and Wooly.
Hmmm, I think that's one of the rare times I've agreed with Winterfox. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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TheBard
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 22:15:50
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| It wasn't so much a counter-argument, it was more of a literal observation. As I understand it fantasy is a sort of escape from reality. And with the restraints of reality removed the only real limit is the imagination of the author. I just basicly thought the idea of having a "realistic" fantasy novel a oxymoron. I wasn't arguing the point you were making. I just found your choice of words amusing. |
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Ebonshine
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 22:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by TylerXKJ
Their "relationship" is only a small part of the series which is fine to me. Mr Byers isn't Shakespeare but I felt that Dorn and KaraACHOOGAZUNTIGHT had time to start feeeling things. Dorn's kind of like a wounded bird that she wants to nurse back to health. A bitter, angry, more-metal-than-man bird, but still a creature she feels sympathy for. I personally can't wait for Sammaster to meet the party and wipe the floor with their entrails. Seriously, Sammy is an epic level character and while high level, Dorn and company are mice to him. It'll be fun to read how they tangle with him.
Dorn is like a wounded bird?
Funny I didn't get that impression as the prologue described his parents, notably his mother being ripped apart piece by piece and being cruelly devoured piece by piece by a dragon as he watched. Observing that would leave you more like a hostile, hate-filled badger or wolverine than a hurt robin or sparrow in my opinion and would also have a lasting effect on your persona that wouldn't be erased just because some dragon has sympathy turned lust for you.
The dragon's interest in him, be it sympathy or whatever else still rings as contrived and unbelievable no matter how you slice it in my opinion and would have been better left out.
You are correct though that it is not a large part of the novel, thankfully, and I do look forward to seeing the final clash with Sammaster. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 23:04:27
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quote:
Originally posted by TheBard
It wasn't so much a counter-argument, it was more of a literal observation. As I understand it fantasy is a sort of escape from reality. And with the restraints of reality removed the only real limit is the imagination of the author. I just basicly thought the idea of having a "realistic" fantasy novel a oxymoron. I wasn't arguing the point you were making. I just found your choice of words amusing.
No matter the intent of fantasy, suspension of disbelief is essential. If you can't suspend your disbelief, you're not going to believe in the novel -- which will end the escapism of it.
If something does not adhere to its own premise(s) and rules, it is not realistic -- and this applies to more than just fantasy. It applies to sci-fi, to thrillers, to horror, to movies, to TV. To be entertaining, it has to be believable. Hence, it has to be realistic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2005 : 00:22:58
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quote:
Originally posted by TylerXKJ
Seriously, Sammy is an epic level character and while high level, Dorn and company are mice to him. It'll be fun to read how they tangle with him.
And?
Most dragons in the books are epic level encounters and they regulary get killed by whoever comes across and they are to weak to level a single monastry.
Beeing Epic in these books is a certain death sentence and a sign that you are in reality too weak to destroy anything. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 04:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by TheBard
Am I the only one that finds people talking about stuff being "realistic" in a fantasy novel amusing?
And am I the only one who finds this particular counter-argument nonsensical?
Nope! ;)
Anyway, yes I have to agree that I found it hard to believe that a beautiful song dragon would not only fall for Dorn, but also have the patience to stick around with him for long (nursing a bird with a broken wing is noble, but sooner or later the bird has to fly). Perhaps it's a romance that isn't meant to last. Then again, a lasting romance between the two isn't impossible, and I have to admit that it's an intriguing idea. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Sep 2005 04:02:40 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 05:45:06
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| Honestly, to speak, I have suspicions that the song wrym known as Karasendrieth falling for a half-golem. This notion seemed like something impossible springing to life, I think this song wrym has an ulterior motive, and that is to try convince Dorn to see the "Good" side of dragons rather than the "Bad" side of dragons in a foolhardy attempt to save her fledging dragon race from being exterminated by zealous hunters such as Dorn. For most wryms would hardly endeavor nor stand the notion of mixing their blood with that of the smaller folk which they always despised and used for entertainment. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 11 Sep 2005 05:45:37 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 13:53:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor
quote:
Originally posted by TylerXKJ
Seriously, Sammy is an epic level character and while high level, Dorn and company are mice to him. It'll be fun to read how they tangle with him.
And?
Most dragons in the books are epic level encounters and they regulary get killed by whoever comes across and they are to weak to level a single monastry.
Beeing Epic in these books is a certain death sentence and a sign that you are in reality too weak to destroy anything.
That "single monastery" happens to be a HUGE, well-built and heavily fortified fortress. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 18:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
That "single monastery" happens to be a HUGE, well-built and heavily fortified fortress.
Which is useless against dragons. Walls and towers don't stop them, not even the mountain itself and there aren't any siege weapons like ballistas mentioned which would help the monks in defense. They seem to not even have ranged weapons aside from javelins.
Yet they manage it to delay dozens of attacking dragons a long time and even hold the courtyard, a place where a dragon has all its advantages.
And the monastery couldn't be bigger than a large town (probably way smaller). When some ill equipped monks can withstand dozens of dragons, then any city with a garrison could fend of a "normal" raging band of dragons (~5) easily.
Dragons simply perform very poorly in those books and that is not the fault of the rage as the dragons attacking the monastery weren't raging. The only thing dragons can do successfully is attacking a undefended wagon (Dorns youth), all other battles they lost without doing much damage beeing it against a single character or a band of no name soldiers.
Which creature endangered the heroes most? Ogres who captured Pavel, not dragons.
Which creatures wrought the most destruction? Goblins when razing several fortresses, not dragons.
That makes me wonder why everyone fears a rage of dragons as they are more harmeless than ogres and goblins.
For me this pathetic performance certainly doesn't help my "suspension of disbelief" as Wooly called it. The bad romance story also doesn't help. But Song dragons generally seem to have strange interests. See Elminsters Daughter for a other irrational song dragon "romance" |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 11 Sep 2005 18:43:36 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 20:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Honestly, to speak, I have suspicions that the song wrym known as Karasendrieth falling for a half-golem. This notion seemed like something impossible springing to life, I think this song wrym has an ulterior motive, and that is to try convince Dorn to see the "Good" side of dragons rather than the "Bad" side of dragons in a foolhardy attempt to save her fledging dragon race from being exterminated by zealous hunters such as Dorn.
Interesting thought. I still think of the romance as sincere, but again it is a little hard to believe. It's a credit to Kara that she can fall in love with a guy for who he is rather than what he looks like. But consider who Dorn is. Not only does he hate dragons, he is also probably the least kind and compassionate of his gang--a gruff mercenary without a heart of gold. Also, he is cynical to the core and has a hard time trusting people. While all of these traits are understandable, they certainly make him less attractive as a mate, and if Kara has taken Dorn on as a "pet project" of sorts, it may well take years for him to change. It would also mean that she loves Dorn for who he could be rather than who he actually is. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Sep 2005 20:10:21 |
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Who likes Dorn?
