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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 02:01:01
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Hi, all. I'm a longtimer gamer but fairly new to FR, and I'm curious: to you "true fans," what makes the Forgotten Realms the Forgotten Realms?
What makes it special? Different from other gaming settings? Or to put it another way I guess, taking what things away would make the Realms stop being the Realms, to you?
Thanks in advance, all.
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 02:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
...what makes the Forgotten Realms the Forgotten Realms? What makes it special? Different from other gaming settings? Or to put it another way I guess, taking what things away would make the Realms stop being the Realms, to you?
For me, the Forgotten Realms has always had a draw based on my early introductions to fantasy. The first actual 'fantasy' book I ever read was The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, waaaay back in the third grade. Obviously, this led to such staples as Tolkein's books (after reading the rest of the Narnia books, of course!), alot of Stephen King, and branching off into Frank Herbert's Dune Series. (while technically sci-fi, it would not be a stretch to see Herbert's works as fantasy as well.)
I like a high-magic setting. I like the rich details that the Realms has (Elminster's Ecologies was a dream come true for me). There's high-end staple characters, but these only make up a small fraction of what is available. As a DM now, I am never at a loss for new adventures. If anything, I have a difficult time staying with one adventure before I find something else to send my player's off to do! 
And with such a wonderful website like Candlekeep, where the creators and authors are available for questions (so long as those evil NDAs aren't in the way!), it truly gives you a feeling that the Realms live and breathe. One has only to read one of Ed's replies about his world to know that he lives in two worlds. Ours and his.
I'm sure we all would on agree on which one is better!  |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 03:48:54
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| Rich detail, a dynamic setting with excellent continuity, characters and places that feel as real as my neighbor and his apartment... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 05:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Rich detail, a dynamic setting with excellent continuity, characters and places that feel as real as my neighbor and his apartment...
And that would be the same for me as well .
Although, I'd also like to add one other aspect. That is, having close and continual contact with many of the more prominent authors and game designers (yeah, Steven, Ed, Eric, Elaine... and all the others -- you know I'm talking about you all  [oops! nearly forgot Krash  ]) involved in Realms development over the last few years (here at Candlekeep). This has contributed significantly to my overall feelings about the Realms, and what I think of it personally.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 18:45:32
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A lot of what makes the Realms unique is that its not entirely ever one thing. Faerun is an incredibly large world with MANY possibilities for players. The nice thing about FR is that it gives a campaign setting that opens up possibilities for many different styles of gameplay: battle heavy, diplomatic, subtle, monster hunting, dark, light.
FR is somewhat of a mid-way point as far as campaign settings go. It isn't a whole lot of any one thing, but many things. Whereas Ebberon (sp) puts a lot of emphasis on dragons, power and battles, and Ravenloft on gothic horror and classey monster hunting.
Another thng that makes the realms so odd is its uncanny range of races. I mean lets just face it, FR has a book dedicated to races! FR is a breeding ground (please excuse my pun) for countless differnt combinations and hybrids.
I also find FR to be any easy setting so bring in inspirement from fantasy works such as The Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Narnia, or even some dragon riders of Pern (with some limitations and no direct refferences, since Anne McCaffery would sue my kidneys). Just recently, there was a forum discussing the development of a society inspired by the world of 'planet of the apes'.
If FR has any one thing, however, its hope. Fighting out to the bitter end, and never giving up on what's good in this world. Likewise a lot of fantasy shares this theme in common with the realms. There's a quote written by R.A. Salvatore (famed author of FR novels) that speaks about hope, as spoken by Drizzit Do'Urden, that in my opinion summarizes the very essenence of that theme. I'm sure the other member know of what quote I'm talking about, I just can't put my tongue (or more fingers) on the exact words. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1730 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 18:47:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
Hi, all. I'm a longtimer gamer but fairly new to FR, and I'm curious: to you "true fans," what makes the Forgotten Realms the Forgotten Realms?
What makes it special? Different from other gaming settings? Or to put it another way I guess, taking what things away would make the Realms stop being the Realms, to you?
Thanks in advance, all.
Quite simple, as taught to me by Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb...
Everything--and we do mean EVERYTHING--has a story. Worse still, everything has a history and a depth to it.
Want an off-the-cuff example? You're walking down across the Green Fields north of Amn and you top a rise, only to find a lovely little hamlet of about 6 buildings in a small cluster along the rushing stream you've heard for the past few minutes.
That rock you just kicked? It's got a nearly-worn-out rune on it that might (to a discerning eye) show it was part of a Netherese tower long ago and far away, as that empire is long fallen.
That creek-side mill with the weird mix of stones in its walls? Also made out of Netherese and Phalorman ruins from different time periods...though the mill is only 8 years old. Odd mix of carvings and such on the inside and outside walls, and very incomplete as to what info you might be able to read, should you find someone capable of reading them. 
The mill, by the by, is owned by Kahrlad the Younger, third son of Kahrlad Two-Blades and the only non-warrior of his family. Most of his seven brothers and sisters are mercenaries and they help keep his mill and the small village of Hrakir's Creek safe from wandering bandits and orcs.
Oh, and did we mention Kahrlad's lovely young daughters? One of whom is a sorceress? She's got.....
Get the picture? Everything, every aspect of the world can have as much or as little depth as you'd care to put to it. The Realms stands apart in that, even if it's not mentioned up front, the details are just waiting in the background to be leapt upon by GMs and other designers and authors alike.
Steven
Who's rather amused this little scribble went as long as it did...and no, he's got absolutely no idea where that little hamlet rests save in the vaguest sense on the map of the Sword Coast in his head.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 19:43:43
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| See what I mean? Detail, details, details! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 21:46:59
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I am a science teacher and an insane History addict!
I have never seen a published campaign setting as detailed as the realms.
No matter what time period or geographic area you like best you can find it in the realms. THere is Slavic, English, Scottish, SPanish, Italian (all the merchant states), and even Ancient egyptian and Sumerian.. and that is only on FAERUN. You also have all the stages of history from the ancient to AT least the 1600's, though I would go so far as to say the romantic period of the 19th century (minus guns).
When I was running a waterdeep campaign, I read some of charles dickens to get the feeling right.
Forgotten realsm works if you just want a standard fantasy land... or if you want a dynamic ever changing world.
Good Job Ed and Company. I have NEVER been able to stick with any other world before I feel drawn back to the realms.
For me the only thing that compares to the realms is only in a galaxy far far away. And even that is lacking in detail.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 22:28:43
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I think a major part of the Realms is the spirit behind it. All the characters you create immediately have a history in the ethnicity and deity they have chosen. If you choose Chondathan, you come from a widespread people that have a grand history but are on the cusp of fading away. The Dalelands folk are hard workers but are always up for some mischief, well 'sides Archendale.
I think it is the most detailed and cared about fantasy setting ever. Most of the Realms players and GMs I know invest themselves into to gain the satisfaction of knowing a brilliantly planned (and unplanned) world. And if there is anything not dictated in the books, then it allows you the chance to create or tweak it the way you want.
The Realms also allows a great template for a high magic society, but also lends itself remarkably to the foils of man (and elf, dwarf, etc.). It is a wonderful setting and I can't wait every time I am about to sit down and enjoy a nice time amongst my friends in a tavern in Silverymoon.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 01:33:35
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 By the Lady's Blades... Mournblade has returned!
Welcome back friend, 'tis good to see another great scribe return to these halls .
::Looks eagerly around for Edain::
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
For me the only thing that compares to the realms is only in a galaxy far far away. And even that is lacking in detail.
That reminds me... did you ever pick up that toilet paper that the Bookwyrm recommended to you during your last visit here?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 04:13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
By the Lady's Blades... Mournblade has returned!
That reminds me... did you ever pick up that toilet paper that the Bookwyrm recommended to you during your last visit here?
WOW my friend! Your memory is infallable. No I am afraid I was not able to pick up that TP. But I still completely fall for all the marketing from a galaxy far far away. Heck I did not have a cell phone until Lucasfilm and cingular got together. I finally have one now. And it is great when I have a different ring tone quote assigned to each of my friends.
Anyway it is good to pop back. I hope to make this an extended stay:) I was on City of Heroes for a while but got bored with MMOLRPG, so now I am back to war strategy and posting again:)
GOOD TO SEE YOU SAGE!!!!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 06:43:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
But I still completely fall for all the marketing from a galaxy far far away. Heck I did not have a cell phone until Lucasfilm and cingular got together. I finally have one now. And it is great when I have a different ring tone quote assigned to each of my friends.
When you have the chance, I'd like to hear what you thought of RotS. But perhaps you could send me PM using the new function that was added to Candlekeep during your absence (and to keep Big Al happy  ).
quote:
...so now I am back to war strategy...
I wouldn't mind hearing more about this either -- since I also recall our interests where very much the same on this particular topic. Send me a PM .
And now, back to the Realmslore...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Aug 2005 06:44:55 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 08:19:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
By the Lady's Blades... Mournblade has returned!
Welcome back friend, 'tis good to see another great scribe return to these halls .
::choke, splutter::
Well met and welcome back, Mournblade. Now there's a scribe I haven't seen since... oh before ye were bor.... anyway, 'tis good to have ye back, Mournblade. I'll look forward to seeing more of thy pennings |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 13:28:14
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This is a quote from one of the scribes here in Candlekeep (regrettably, I just cannot remember which one) that Lady THO said was almost how Ed has described magic in the Realms to his players:
"A great depth of magical complexity which yawns like a chasm to the novice mage and which recedes into mystery the more you learn. Thousands of spells, variant magic types, local spellcasting traditions, rare spontaneous magical talents, mantles and spell triggers, layered enchantments, high magic, table magic... The magic of the Realms is designed to be hugely various and complex, to create wonder, world-solidity, mystery, to surprise (and if needed, frustrate) book-peeking players who think they know all. It's far more complex than the rules represent."
And I think that quote wonderfully describes not only the essence of magic in the Realms, but the very essence of the Realms and all the Realmslore so many sages and scribes are penning down on infinite number of parchments and scrolls |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Fireheart
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 15:37:14
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I just have to second everything that's been said and add one more thing.
I love the Realms because I can make it my own without having to create my own setting. There is amazing amounts of detail and history and stories all that I can share, but at the same time my players can now make thier own history and as they do, their actions help create the feel of the world.
~T |
I believe in what I see/I believe in what I hear/I believe that what I'm feeling/Changes how the world appears
-Rush "Totem" |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 17:21:37
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What makes the Realms is how it smells, how its layers interact, the frequencies it buzzes on, how it combines its literary and experiential influences, how it grows. Actual Realms material answers how it does all that better than all our analyses, which is why Steven's answer here is the best. Ed's introduction to Best of the Realms II is better. Part of the answer I'd describe as wry non-cynicism and uncompromised love for the whole.
Of course these answers are also interesting in what they say about us.
On the one hand, the Realms is a complex of factors such that removing any of them would seriously change what it is. On the other, its buzz (see above) doesn't rely on any single element and you could take any of them away. The demihumans and monsters are dispensable, also the particular history if it was replaced with an equivalent one. You're left with how people respond to other people in the present and other people in the past, the range of senses of place, and the magic, which expresses a particular idea about part of the wonder of the world. You can even dispense with all the detail -- once you know that the detail might exist and that's it's possible to cooperatively narrate a world which is still there, as real as before, when you turn your head or go a mile north, south, east or west. |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 22:20:43
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Ahh...
Hard question to answer I think. I don't know is this what kind of answers you are searching but:
A quote from my other answer:
I like differences and new things(options, in fact odd ones).
In my opinion, Realms have always been odd place, a place from where you can find ALMOST EVERYTHING, and that's why I really enjoy the Realms.
The Realms have very wide collection of races and magical things etc.
And the books are amazing. And I just like the Realms! |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 17:34:30
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| Without wanting to sound too much like anybody else here, the wealth of detail, the variation and way everything fits together, the staggering depth of the world, the wonderfully crafted people and places, the creator, developers who put so much in, the fans who give so much back, and crucially, the sheer level of fun. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 19:06:11
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Well, the short answer, for me (I'll give the LONG answer next) is the place that adventuring companies have in the societies of the Realms. In other settings, adventurers are a rare thing, and there may be a few adventurers across the various lands, but they are usually more properly mercenaries or agents of various churches, power groups, or countries.
Starting with the grey box campaign set, we definately were given the idea that adventuring groups were part of the social structure. Fairly common, though some are better than others. Youth that didn't quite fit into any other part of society, or those that weren't ready yet to join up with their destiny, banded together to adventure. Not only that, but they had adventures . . . they might travel the world and try to find lost trade routes as likely as try to find masses of treasure.
How common is the idea of an adventuring party to the Realms? Cormyr has laws on its books about them, and Waterdeep has a square with jobs posted for bored adventurers. The Rashemi even have a cultural trend that lends itself to characters going out and adventuring. While adventurers in other settings might either want to go out and get rich, and find companions that will help them get rich, or they might want to fight a great evil, and find like companions (the Howard/Leiber school of though versus the Tolkien school of thought), characters in the Realms might band together to visit Anauroch to say that they have seen it, or the Great Glacier, or to visit exotic cultures like Mulhorand or Tashluta. They may want to fight a great evil or get rich as well, but thats only part of the picture.
And as others have said, getting away from adventuring companies, the Realms is a tapestry. If part if it is changed or destroyed, the whole is still pretty varied and intact, and whatever replaces what is lost is slowly brought into "Realmslore."
In fact, I think the whole of the Realms experience is that it is as much about adventuring groups being friends that adventure instead of adventurers that might become friends, and that it is about adventurers that might save the world and or get rich as it is adventurers that save the world and get rich and may see a few sights along the way.
I was waiting for the very end for any comparisons to other settings, because if the Realms is just "Like Greyhawk except" then there really isn't anything specieal about it, and I fear when I speak with Greyhawk aficianados that they have this view of the Realms (its like Greyhawk, but with higher level characters, etc.) Greyhawk aficianados seem to always want more supplements about their setting, but if anything changes something that has always been, they get upset. How dare you change Lord Mayor Flogstein from 3rd level to 8th level! How dare you say that General Sogmeister was assasinated, he's been in charge of the Knights of the Bonkers for 30 years!
That is what we Realms fans understand, and expect. Things will change. SO long as the change is rooted in Realmslore and that it doesn't contradict what has gone before, the changes are good for us (though a few happen a bit too quickly to fully digest at times). Azoun dies, Khelbun leaves the Harpers, Fzoul takes over the Zhentarim, Anauroch goes from a deslolate desert to a battle groud between the Empire of Shade and various powergroups. But all of those seeds existed before the event, and thus happen "organically."
I think, to sum up, the Realms isn't a backdrop to put your adventures and characters in . . . it is a living thing to be experienced.
And God help us if we ever get to the point where we want the latest edition stats for this country or that character but still want the setting itself to be the same after 30 years, and complain vociferously 10 years after the one event that tried to revitalize the setting.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 21:06:23
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Well met, Broken Helm! Always good to meet a reader!
I've been a fan for a very long time, and only recently begun publishing stuff in the Realms. And let me tell you it is an HONOR.
So: my two coppers:
quote:
I'm a longtimer gamer but fairly new to FR, and I'm curious: to you "true fans," what makes the Forgotten Realms the Forgotten Realms?
Simple. Ed, Elaine, R.A., Douglas, Troy, Richard, Richard, Paul, Lisa, Thomas, and the list goes on and on. Not to mention the designers, like Steven, Eric, Skip, etc., etc, and the editors, Phil and Susan. An incredible body of people works around the clock to produce the quality, depth, and life of the Realms, such that it is a living, breathing ocean that one can dive into for lifetimes of exploration.
But that's not all.
quote:
What makes it special?
I'd echo what everyone else has said about the vastness of the setting and the incredible detail that has gone into every bit of it, but you've got a lot of that. And I won't kid you -- it's GLORIOUS that there's so much to learn and think about.
Instead, let me add another aspect:
In spite of the incredible amount of detail and intricacy of the setting, a new reader or player doesn't NEED all of it right away. You can just jump in, without hiking your way through hundreds of pages of sourcebook (unless, of course, you'd like to, in which case you can!).
No enjoyment is lost if you don't delve into every tiny bit of lore and history -- which ancient order of mages gave birth to which particular stone strewn along the path, which unlocks a gate to which dimension through which particular incantation -- it's totally your choice.
There are many different levels at which you can enjoy the Realms. Take Spellfire, for instance. You can enjoy it just as a magical, action-packed romp or as a romantic comedy. On the other hand, you can do research and find a sea of detail lurking behind every page, and that is just as enjoyable. Or something in between.
Ultimately, you get to control your own pace, discovering and allowing the world to unfold at a rate that suits you. Never is Realmslore thrust down your throat -- rather, it just waits for you to find the right balance and level of detail.
And that's something that seems a little rare in fantasy, and very special when you find it.
quote:
Different from other gaming settings?
The Realms, at its core, is pure sword and sorcery, and in that sense it's an incredibly versatile setting. Dragonlance is more epic -- battles between armies, honor, duty, etc. Ravenloft is all about gothic horror, with undead and monsters lurking in every shadow (except the one you're already searching). Dark Sun is about survivalism, pragmatism, and exploring humanity's darker side. Planescape is all about fantastacism and traveling between worlds.
The Realms, however, can do ANY of that, or skip any of that, without losing any of its flavor. The world just handles so many things so easily.
quote:
Or to put it another way I guess, taking what things away would make the Realms stop being the Realms, to you?
Anything, really, but it wouldn't be possible to take anything away. The Realms can only get bigger and grander, even by subtractions: loss of that person here and there, sets off a huge legacy, etc.
Hope that came off as helpful and not just long winded.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 07 Aug 2005 21:30:03 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 15:04:04
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Just wanted to at least partially appologize for my above post, and to offer an explanation. I wrote this post not long after having a discussion with a Greyhawk aficianado that had the usual "Drizzt and Elminster" fixation, boiling Forgotten Realms down to "good drow and epic level wizards." I try, in life, to not promote what I personally subscribe to by denegrating what I dislike in others, but in this case, I though at least some of my comments appropriate.
So if we have any Greyhawk fans in resisdence, I appologize for any perceived venom on my part. I had a lot of fan as a player in Greyhawk, but as a DM Greyhawk just never seized my attention. I agree with Ed on this matter, when he was discussing why the Realms are so detailed. There are hooks in every direction, and if your PCs go north instead of east, you still have so much to work with. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 18:29:04
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KnightErrantJR, quite right on your first point. Ed took the existence of adventurers and made a whole culture and mindset for them, explored their relationships with the world and the sensible people in it. Bizarre that this has been avoided by TSR and WotC with its focus on PCs.
I'm a Greyhawk fan: of Gary Gygax's world, not so much what followed at TSR. I can't say I much recognize your characterization: there are some obsessed with continuity minutiae, some who don't like the spirit of things being tampered with, but no large loud group of those afraid of change per se. If there are, it's just one faction among several. I agree in principle with your larger point but I think much of the execution has been a rather crass, unsophisticated interpretation of 'making the setting live' -- it isn't necessary to rapidly advance the timeline (particularly the incomprehensible jump to 1367 with the 1993 set in which we essentially lost, or aged, several years) blow stuff up, and upset nations with compulsive regularity.
When I came online and first saw the 'Drizzt and Elminster' thing, it seemed, and still does, entirely foreign and apart from the Realms I know -- evenings in Shadowdale, crawling claws in dusty ancient crypts, trade guilds, friends joking and daring death, damp streets lit by moonlight and spell-glows. The 'too powerful' stuff is worlds and spheres beside the point. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 19:15:15
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Aye Faraer,
Those of us who mention the changes only want in game explainations for them. There's changes and then there's serious retcons. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 19:33:47
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Yes, I wouldn't imply that if all of the sudden a supplement came out that destroyed Waterdeep, carved up the Dalelands, made Anauroch a fertile jungle, and melted the Great Glacier, and all of it was done by a previously unknown powergroup, or if the "change" in question is something like telling us that Elminster has always been a tiefling and we just never knew it, then no, I'm not in favor of it.
Faraer, I loved PLAYING in Greyhawk, but it does seem that nothing that is done to update the setting seems to make anyone happy, and when you really analyse what a lot (not all) Greyhawk fans want is basically for everything to get new stats but stay the same. I must also admit that my first post was made after encountering some of what some of my good fellow scribes refer to as "Greyhawk Nazis" on the Paizo boards.
I had to edit this, becuase just as I finished writing the above, I checked in at Paizo, and read a post from a person that wanted to not refer to Dragotha as "dracolich" becuase its just too Forgotten Realms. As if somehow the general stuff we use from D&D is wonderful and exalted, but anything that originates in the FR is somehow tainted and distateful to introduce into Greyhawk . . . ARGH! |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 09 Aug 2005 19:46:12 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 19:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yes, I wouldn't imply that if all of the sudden a supplement came out that destroyed Waterdeep, carved up the Dalelands, made Anauroch a fertile jungle, and melted the Great Glacier, and all of it was done by a previously unknown powergroup, or if the "change" in question is something like telling us that Elminster has always been a tiefling and we just never knew it, then no, I'm not in favor of it.
Faraer, I loved PLAYING in Greyhawk, but it does seem that nothing that is done to update the setting seems to make anyone happy, and when you really analyse what a lot (not all) Greyhawk fans want is basically for everything to get new stats but stay the same. I must also admit that my first post was made after encountering some of what some of my good fellow scribes refer to as "Greyhawk Nazis" on the Paizo boards.
I had to edit this, becuase just as I finished writing the above, I checked in at Paizo, and read a post from a person that wanted to not refer to Dragotha as "dracolich" becuase its just too Forgotten Realms. As if somehow the general stuff we use from D&D is wonderful and exalted, but anything that originates in the FR is somehow tainted and distateful to introduce into Greyhawk . . . ARGH!
I really do not think that all Greyhawk fans are maniacs, but the only ones I have ever met(I`m not counting any scribe of candlekeep here) are like those referred to above. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
991 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 20:55:22
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| Two things first grabbed my attention to the Realms when it first came out. The first was how much more thought out it it appeared to be when it was first published than Greyhawk (and that's not a dig at Greyhawk, just a comment of the state of affairs at the time). So many of parts of the Realms grabbed the attention, places like Thay and Waterdeep. Second was the tie into the novels. What a... novel... concept. Suddenly my game world was as alive as any book or movie I'd ever seen. Consequently, unlike a lot of other settings around at the time, it wasn't static or even close to it. The Realms changed often and quickly, mostly as a result of the novels, which then got interpreted into the game. It didn't hurt that some of the earlier writers and their characters captured the imagination, Salvatore's Drizzt, Grubb & Novak's Alias. Now, none of these traits is particularly unique to the Realms anymore. A lot of settings from WotC and others are well thought out living campaigns (and often more tighly constructed) with novel series attached. So what's kept me hooked on the Realms has been the historical narrative others have commented on and which seeps into your bones the more you get into it. No other setting can boast this. And the second thing that has kept me geeked out on the Realms, has been my own personal involvement which includes time sharing with others on these and other boards and occasionally contributing to it myself. So if I had to start over, would I choose the Realms over other settings? I would definitely change a few things, but the answer is definitely yes. But that said, a lot of other settings have a lot to offer and interesting ideas too. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 20:59:36
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Greyhawk was created at a time when it was expected that DM's would be developing much more on their own. THat is why Greyhawk is so bare bones. I have the original pamphlet that WAS greyhawk and you can barely recognize it as a campaign world.
Now that WOTC puts out all the information on everything, if you do not want to use creativity in development you do not have to. You can have EVERYTHING handed to you and just play. A DM in forgotten realms does not have to really do much but generate the adventure the background is already there. Greyhawk takes more work.
It is good there is a setting out there that WOTC isn't touching, so that those people that wish to still play it can do so without it becomming mass marketed.
I love the realms, and I am staying with it. I like to morph it and change it to my needs, but I love it. It is the best. But it is difficult to deny that todays gaming industry has lost a lot of the spirit, and mass markets fantasy.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 00:23:42
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quote:
I love the realms, and I am staying with it. I like to morph it and change it to my needs, but I love it. It is the best. But it is difficult to deny that todays gaming industry has lost a lot of the spirit, and mass markets fantasy.
Heh, why do you think they came out with this DM guide 2 crap! Part of being a good DM is being about to put the DMG away whenever making a campaign. Sure, it's good for its tables, but I find more and more DM's tend to pick and choose their treasures, as opposed to it being completely randomly.
Well, technically the realms could run itself, but frankly a campaign is dumb if its just regergitated, especially for experienced players.
quote:
It is good there is a setting out there that WOTC isn't touching, so that those people that wish to still play it can do so without it becomming mass marketed.
Actually, however Wizards techincally owns the RAVENLOFT campaign setting, they don't touch it! Something I admire about ravenloft DM's is that they are VERY independent DMs, since Ravenloft is more or less on its own.
It's even to the point that my friend who's a member of the Fraternity of Shadows (RL equivalent to Candlekeep) told me about how there is some worry whether Wizards is going to put RL down for good. However, I also know that the members of the frat would simply write things themselves, should the official authors get sacked by Wizards.
And frankly, I think that FR is the same. However we get a lot more 'attention' from wizards, I think that everyone here is probably a DM that is independent enough that we would all just meet somewhere else and keep posting our ideas, should wizards ever get any funny ideas about the realms.
Indepence and creativity are the two aspects that make or break DMs! And I totally agree with Knight's statement about how we should NEVER reach a point that we need Wizards to write things for us. DnD may be a financial asset for them, but for us it is a hobby, a sport, a passtime, a dream, a talent, I'd even argue its a way of life for some people.
I'd also like to take this time to sincerely thank Alaundo, the moderators, the authors that spend their time answering our buggering questions, and everyone that helps make Candlekeep the novelty to us FR freaks that it is! Keep up the work, and know that you are appreciated! |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
Edited by - Sir Luther Cromwell on 10 Aug 2005 00:25:17 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 00:29:18
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| Could have swore that White Wolf owns the license for Ravenloft now. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 00:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
[quote]
Actually, however Wizards techincally owns the RAVENLOFT campaign setting, they don't touch it! Something I admire about ravenloft DM's is that they are VERY independent DMs, since Ravenloft is more or less on its own.
It's even to the point that my friend who's a member of the Fraternity of Shadows (RL equivalent to Candlekeep) told me about how there is some worry whether Wizards is going to put RL down for good. However, I also know that the members of the frat would simply write things themselves, should the official authors get sacked by Wizards.
WotC only own the RL trademark. White Wolf's contract with WotC gives them extensive leeway when publishing new material for the setting.
The problems with the RL line at the moment, aren't WotC fault, but troubles with White Wolf publishing. But since this is completely off-topic, I suggest we return to the subject of this scroll and discuss this matter further in private.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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What Makes "The Realms" The Realms?
