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2e Menzoberranzan: "A drow given the taste of freedom will never look back". Freedom, and the desire of it, is totally unrelated to morals. It's related to wanting to fulfil oneself and not be miserable, which everyone wants.

Really, the drow are aware of their situation, and it makes no sense for them to not be, given how comically evident the reality is. It's just that the current worldbuilding of the drow is really dated and not well thought out. It only exists because of author bias, and essentially amounts to non-narrative.

In 2e, the drow commoners were described as unhappy with Lolth; in other sources they're also portrayed as perpetually miserable and trapped in a system that intentionally prevents their development and growth, from a personal, economic, and social standpoint. There's a difference between meritocracy (which is what Lolth should be about but totally isn't--nepotism and stagnation are a staple of her society), and making most people live like sh*t and waste all their strength in randomly backstabbing each other, because "muh powah...". However, the further we go with the editions, the more uniform the Lolthite society is depicted. Which leads to my next point.

Lolth doesn't care for the drow, and that's evident. he only cares that they remain bound to her, and she has actively hampered them for millennia. This has been canon since 2e: the the drow would be 100x better w/o Lolth. With that premise, they should have never gone through more than 12000 years of total misery without one meaningful change--heck, with 0 attempts at a change. Without splinter movements (Eilistraee and Vhaeraun aren't splinter movements, because their societies didn't form within Lolthite society; they're external cultures), without disillusion and resentment towards Lolth forming among the drow. They should have formed splinter movements fighting for different ideas, schisms should have happened and deepened, the society should have changed, fractured, and evolved. Not having any of that with a premise as ridiculous as Lolth's is a narrative failure.

Don't give me the "drow not changing, not developing new ideas, or not turning to Eilistraee&Vhaeraun&Co is justified because Lolth. It's all because of story premise!". If this had been because of the story, a society like Lolth's would have already dramatically changed or collapsed a long time ago (notice how the Lolthites have 32483453456 enemies, but those enemies magically never take advance of the fact that Lolthites regularly turn of each other even when under siege, and when they do, plot armor rains from the sky so that no consequence is ever faced), because change is what stories are about, and because it only makes sense.

You might say that the theocracy, totalitarianism, or what you have prevents the drow from developing those feelings and intentions, but that's baseless. When a society is so ridiculous that you have laughable stuff like "loving your kids is weakness", when commoners have no rights or anything, can be literally killed for fun by nobles, can be bankrupted for fun by priestesses (and subsequently enslaved)--this is all in the lore across the editions, btw--when the vast majority of drow is perpetually emotionally and materially miserable, it makes sense for them to lose faith, to be disilluded, because the grandiose promises Lolth makes are just smoke in the eyes, and she doesn't even make an effort to efficiently hide it. Especially since the drow are often described as a highly intelligent race. Yes, there's resistance to change, against giving up the set of belief that ruled your life, but: 1)that can only sussist when you have something to gain (either on a psychological, or social, or economical level) 2)all goes out of the window when the premise is so ridiculous even chickens can laugh at it. 3)that can never justify the lack of whole splinter movements and major upheavals, which, in turn, would make it easier and easier for people to recognize the rality of the situation.

And this is just commoners. Miserable people, the "have nots" are usually shut down from a social perspective, and it's unlikely for change to start from them--they're in the so-called quiet desperation. Change starts from the "have some, want more", which abound among the Lolthites. Minor houses who don't like Lolth, male wizards, merchant clans, other drow cultures/churches (who are totally able to infiltrate Lolthite environments; look: Masked Traitors, Secret Moondancers, Silverhair Knights)--they would all greatly benefit from an uprising, and have tools to achieve it. Heck, the other deities and churches could even support the wizards/merchants/dissatisfied nobles. With that in mind, channeling the anger of the drow commoners would be a totally feasible task, and should have happened plenty of times over 12000 years of misery and stagnation.

You can't even use fear of death as an excuse, because 1)the drow are always risking death in the Lolthite society anyway 2)it has never been enough to prevent formation of splinter movents, changes, etc... It hasn't been for RW societies, it isn't for the drow, who also have the support of other deities, and don't just have Lolth.

The protection racket (Lolth protects them from the Underdark threats) doesn't work either. Lolth has never protected the drow from anyone; they always protected themselves. What Lolth did is giving a bunch of divine spells to a bunch of people who could force the drow into being her slaves, but those people and that regime only weakened the drow and made them suffer (that's literally stated in the 2e The Drow of the Underdark book, and it's quite obvious). And on top of that, those divine spells could have been provided by literally any other deity--and other deities also regularly reach to the drow. You have Vhaeraun as the main one--aka, the deity who had led Ilythiir to glory when Lolth was still forgotten and in the Abyss, whom the recently exiled drow still worshipped but magically forgot about in an instant, because... uhm... right, because the author says so. Eilistraee could have been relevant too, but she was powerless after the Descent and after the sun elves magic nuked her nation, but even then she still kept fighting for the drow and reaching to them, according to the lore in Demihuman Deities.

Before someone comes up with "but North Korea" to justify why the totalitarianism works, there are A LOT of North Koreans who are disillusioned with the regime and try to escape; they only put up a facade of obedience. Also, how many rebellions have oppressed people attempted over the course of human history? However, not even something as basic as this is mentioned for the D&D drow--it's always <1%. Heck, in FR that disillusion alone would be even enough to hurt Lolth's power. Lolth's followers have more influence on her than she has on them. In FR, the power of a deity has always depended on the faith they get from their followers (as shown by Eilistraee being reduced into powerlessness after the Sun Elves literally magic-nuked her nation, or Auppenser being also reduced into powerlessness after the elves genocided Jhaamdath). Ever since the Times of Troubles, a god's own life has depended on the faith they get. Disillusion, even if not openly manifested (therefore this wouldn't even require the drow to actively do anything, just develop resentment or disillusion--a natural response to living like sh*t), will severely hurt Lolth. Like, the drow don't even have to do that intentionally.

On top of this, as mentioned, there are other deities defending change and growth. You have the followers of Eilistraee--and Eilistraee herself--who have been actively reaching for the drow, even materially helping them embrace a different path, even risking their life for them. They have whole orders dedicated to that--including infiltrating Lolthite cities to rescue drow in need. Eilistraee has also been showing all drow--including the matron mothers--what life can actually be, that an alternative exists, and has been doing so by directly contacting the drow through dreams for millennia. She's been calling them to her.

Vhaeraun is a revolutionary who has constantly carried disruptive actions against the Lolthite regimes, to the point of unleashing massive conflicts and civil wars within Lolthite cities. He appeals and offers power to the downthrodden males, which is big in a society like Lolth's, while still offering them the promises of glory and supremacy that they are so hooked on.

Yet, despite the ridiculousness of the condition of the drow commoners, the dissatisfaction of many categories of "have some, want more", despite all the basis for changes and uprising being there, of catalysts (including divine catalysts) for such uprising existing, the overall lore of the drow remains always the same: 90+% are loyal to Lolth. It's stupid, it's even illogical from a purely numerical standpoint (like, other cultures who go live elsewhere never reproduce? They have divine protection too, and of deities who actually care about them, yet their numbers never change in proportion? Wtf?). It's also definitely not "because of story". In fact, the lack of change, even just significant disillusion, defeats one of the pillars of narrative: exploring the consequences of actions, conditions, and false truths, because the Lolthite drow want to be one of the most Stupid Evil (tm) societies in fantasy, without any of the consequences. It's as if the drow lack any drive to improve their condition.

Also, the drow have history and tradition before Lolth; they weren't a blank slate. They had the experience of the power reached by Ilythiir (which was without Lolth, and with Vhaeraun), and the propserity of Miyeritar (again, no Lolth, but Eilistraee). This legacy should have been influential in leading more of them to see Lolth for the fraud she is.

It's not for nothing that Ed Greenwood's division of the drow places Lolth at slightly less than 50%, not at 90%+, in his own version of the Forgotten Realms.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's also part of my issue with the War of the Spider Queen books. First, we have a select group of mortals, sent to another mortal city, to figure out what's happening to their goddess on an entirely different plane of existence -- which is like driving across town to find out what's happening on Neptune. And this group of characters then proceeds to demonstrate the Chaotic Stupid alignment that so many people think defines evil alignments in D&D: they couldn't trust each other or agree on anything and were constantly at each other's throats. They're all intelligent adults on a mission, but acted like teenaged boys in a locker room trying to one up each other and act like they're all that.

The dynamics of the group were just painful to read. I've gotten along with exes and people that actively hated me better than those characters did.

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Originally posted by TKU


Also a an Eilistraee-dominated underdark city would be great to see while I'm wishlisting. Don't think we have seen one of those yet. Vhaeraun has several, even Kiaransalee had one or two. Promenade was all I can think of for the Dark Dancer that coems close, and we have never seen what a Eilistraeen 'revolt' would look like yet afaik, mostly Vhaeraun or Kiaransalee get that role.

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Originally posted by TKU

The commoners have the least to 'gain' from adherence to lolth, and have far less 'policing' from the priestesses than the ruling class, so faith in her being lax in that facet of society is expected. In that sense, the revolt like we saw in the first book of WoTSQ, and Vhaeraunites among the merchants and merchant houses like we saw with the Dragon's Horde makes a lot of sense. At the same time, commoners aren't as exposed to many of the extremes of Lolth's lunacy. The mass heart-carving out horrors are the sort of thing that's reserved for the chapels and cathedrals, which don't tend to be open to the public (or men), outside of the occasional grand public spectacle arranged by the noble households they are more in the vein (ha) of cutting your hand in front of an idol or tossing some gems in a brazier sort of deal. Even with stuff like the commoner hunts arranged by Menzoberranzean's young nobles, commoner drow canonically have a higher average life expectancy, so I can see faith in Lolth to someone like a commoner involving a lot less of the nasty stuff like giving your romantic partner the 'Spider's Kiss' or sacrificing your second son. More like throw an opal in the flames and give a prayer of 'Test me Lolth' before heading out with the merchant Caravan in the hopes of turning some good profit- that sort of thing.

A lot of the Lolth's Dogma is set up to encourage adversarial attitudes towards outsiders and social inferiors though, so regardless of how much of the crazy murder and sacrifice stuff trickles down to the commoners, the oppression is real and palpable. I think the slavery and propagation of hatred towards non-drow, outsiders etc is probably one of the biggest motivators towards commoners keeping in line, alongside an inability to move somewhere else. Such is historically used in a widespread manner to keep lower classes 'content'. It's unfortunate the lengths some miserable people will go to defend their right to look down on people slightly more miserable than themselves, but I think the intention with a lot of how typical Lolthite society is built is to constantly direct the aggression and dissatisfaction around to keep it from blowing up in the nobles' faces.

Of course, the other members of the Dark Seldarine (particularly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee) have messages almost perfectly tailored to counteract Lolth's church and so present a existential threat whenever they start gaining momentum. When they start popping up, Lolth's clergy have to eradicate them or adapt, and fast or die, I agree there- but in the absence of such upheavals, I think they work well enough to justify their continued adherence to Lolth. There were a few cities back in earlier editions that had mixed pantheon's with Lolth+one or more other members of the Dark Seldarine, (never Eilistraee unfortunately) and those are the ones I would have liked to see more of, see how the Lolthites had to adapt their practices and message in the face of competition they couldn't just stamp out by rolling up with a bunch of Priestesses and snake-whipping everything to death.

Also a an Eilistraee-dominated underdark city would be great to see while I'm wishlisting. Don't think we have seen one of those yet. Vhaeraun has several, even Kiaransalee had one or two. Promenade was all I can think of for the Dark Dancer that coems close, and we have never seen what a Eilistraeen 'revolt' would look like yet afaik, mostly Vhaeraun or Kiaransalee get that role.

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Originally posted by Kentinal

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Originally posted by TKU


Also a an Eilistraee-dominated underdark city would be great to see while I'm wishlisting. Don't think we have seen one of those yet. Vhaeraun has several, even Kiaransalee had one or two. Promenade was all I can think of for the Dark Dancer that coems close, and we have never seen what a Eilistraeen 'revolt' would look like yet afaik, mostly Vhaeraun or Kiaransalee get that role.

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We have only heard of the Town that Qilué came from that no longer exists. Current lore indicates that the followers of the Dark Maiden do not have communities, a few temples are all that remain. Even The Promenade is basically a fortress as opposed to a community. Yes people live there, however it is not a Town, village or city, it is an out post set up to protect. There were some attempts to describe or build a Eilistraee community by fans.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Well said. I can't disagree with any of it... It's part of why I am sick of Menzoberranzan. It went from a city of middling importance in 2E (and was canonically described as such) to being the most important drow city -- all because one character was successful and WotC is determined to beat that horse until it's dead, raised by a necromancer, and beat to destruction again.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Well said. I can't disagree with any of it... It's part of why I am sick of Menzoberranzan. It went from a city of middling importance in 2E (and was canonically described as such) to being the most important drow city -- all because one character was successful and WotC is determined to beat that horse until it's dead, raised by a necromancer, and beat to destruction again.

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Yup, and despite the insistence that the drow are nuanced and there are other good drow in Menzo, said nuances were entirely ignored through 4e, and now in 5e, even though Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have returned, it's not their followers who are making a difference, despite working in centuries. Oh no, it's because of an "atheist" (put in quotes because true athiesm is rare in the Realms) drow, and a drow who left Menzo and his people centuries ago, but somehow became a "beacon of hope".

But I have ranted about this at length in other scrolls (and elswhere) already lol.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Kentinal

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Originally posted by TKU


Also a an Eilistraee-dominated underdark city would be great to see while I'm wishlisting. Don't think we have seen one of those yet. Vhaeraun has several, even Kiaransalee had one or two. Promenade was all I can think of for the Dark Dancer that coems close, and we have never seen what a Eilistraeen 'revolt' would look like yet afaik, mostly Vhaeraun or Kiaransalee get that role.

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We have only heard of the Town that Qilué came from that no longer exists. Current lore indicates that the followers of the Dark Maiden do not have communities, a few temples are all that remain. Even The Promenade is basically a fortress as opposed to a community. Yes people live there, however it is not a Town, village or city, it is an out post set up to protect. There were some attempts to describe or build a Eilistraee community by fans.

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There are communites, though. The one in Velarswood (one of the largest), Wildwinds Coven, Misty Forest, Elventree, Raven's Bluff, and now even Waterdeep. They might be small, but they're still communities. Even Ed talks about Eilistraean communties, and says that they form around shrines. No communites un the Underark, though, aside from the Promenade (though you're right that in the current era it's more of a garrison with a dozen people presiding it).

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Originally posted by TKU

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that Lolthite society isn't miserable for commoners as well, just that Lolth and her religious dictates are a few more degrees distant from the commoners than it is the priestesses and especially the Matrons. Commoners have marriage contracts, but Matrons kill their consort when they get bored or to avoid the perception of weakness through attachment. I think in Lolthite cities the lower you go on the ladder the less zealous and less strict the practice of her faith gets. It's even implied that even the slaves and inhabitants of the Braeryn were expected to show deference to Lolth- obviously not particularly enforced.

There should be more examples of power struggles in Drow cities that operate on axis besides the shuffling of the noble houses on the top. That's for sure. There's some of that in the earlier stuff with places like Sshamath-but they really don't generally get spotlight time. And of course, if every drow city operated on the same 'only way to gain a rank in the noble houses is to completely wipe out another noble house' principle that Menzoberranzean operated on, there shouldn't be any 4000 year old houses around, and of course that scale of regular bloodletting we see in Menzoberranzean would leave them regularly ripe for the taking for the Mindflayers, Duergar etc.

The revolt in WoTSQ turning out to be the plotting of a Mindflayer was probably my least favorite thing out of an otherwise good book, though it does show a good snapshot of what a 'real' revolt might look like for a Drow city. The Jezred Chausslin's terrorist attacks-as you put it-certainly didn't do their cause any good honestly, I can see a lot of Drow who might otherwise might be tempted to turn towards Vhaeraun running in the opposite direction back towards Spider Lady after that stunt.

Some good thoughts about how Eilistraeans might stage a revolution. Preventing widespread loss of life seems to be a big part of their Modus Operandi, so I can't see them staging anything that would result in something close to the 'streets run with blood' levels of loss of life we see in Vhaeraunite and Kisransalee takeovers.

Lots of infiltration and would help a lot so the Eilistraeens know which way the wind's blowing when they make their move, like right after a particularly nasty bout of noble house infighting.

There was a Vhaeraunian plot to weaken the Houses of Ched Nassad into vulnerability by controlling the incoming supplies of food and water to the city, so freeing the slaves and allying with Merchant Houses could have a lot of merit for a strategy for bringing the noble houses to the negotiating table, that sort of strategy actually has precedent in canon!

The two big issues I could see would be neutralizing or winning over the wizards, since they have their own hierarchy they can be pretty tyrannical organizations themselves and covet the clergy's position of power, and the second would be what sort of terms of surrender could be offered by the Eilistraeens that would be accepted, since unless their own house soldiers turned on them en masse, or they were completely overrun militarily, there'd be terms, and they'd want assurances and have demands etc, but I imagine that a solution in which the Lolthite clergy was allowed to continue to operate in an Eilistraeen city under any circumstances would be 'distasteful' to say the least.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Thank you, Irennan. Based on what I have found about Ssamath, I can include a covert group of Eilistraeans there that have been secretly "freeing" drow for centuries. They don't take over the town because that would just make them a target and with it being a trading center, the drow they rescue and get to the surface would only be written off as being killed by the "dangers of the Underdark" on their trip back home. Plus, with teleports working there, it is extremely easy to get them to the surface. Of course, once they get there, maybe a "Cleanse Aura" spell could be used so that anyone trying to find them using a divination spell wouldn't be able to see they are still alive. I am going to have to think some more about that.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Thank you, Irennan. Based on what I have found about Ssamath, I can include a covert group of Eilistraeans there that have been secretly "freeing" drow for centuries. They don't take over the town because that would just make them a target and with it being a trading center, the drow they rescue and get to the surface would only be written off as being killed by the "dangers of the Underdark" on their trip back home. Plus, with teleports working there, it is extremely easy to get them to the surface. Of course, once they get there, maybe a "Cleanse Aura" spell could be used so that anyone trying to find them using a divination spell wouldn't be able to see they are still alive. I am going to have to think some more about that.

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Maybe put an earth node or something nearby, and say it blocks scrying/divination in the area. They can teleport nearby, and then walk into that blind zone.

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Originally posted by deserk

Definitely agree with a lot of the sentiments here. Menzoberranzan shouldn't be that important a city, nor should it be the focal point of Drow society. If anything, logically Guallidurth should be the most important drow city, and the city that defines what is archetypally a Lolthite society, given that it is one of the oldest still surviving drow cities in existence (the other being Llurth Dreier), as well as the largest drow city in Faerun's Underdark, and the oldest city worshipping Lolth. But we know very little about that city, or how it looks like, other than that it has several different sects and beliefs about Lolth. I asked Sages and Mages podcast about the city, and they in turn asked Ed Greenwood who basically said that it had been purposely neglected and not designed since it was the "old guard" type of drow society and that it rarely ever was in civil strife, inter-house warfare or turmoil like Menzoberranazan. But it's very hard to know what he even means by "old guard", when Menzoberranzan is the image everyone has when they think of the quintessential drow society in FR. But at least we can deduce from that, that maybe Lolthite society isn't as dysfunctional, wildly chaotic and self-destructive as RA Salvatore has depicted in the Drizzt books. Might be Ed has a different and more nuanced view on how Lolthites operate.

When it comes to Faerun's religions in general, he has alluded many times that there are many regional difference and heresies among the faiths of Toril, and that the particular deities often deliberately permit and promote different sects. Lolth given her chaotic nature would most assuredly be tempted to allow such as well.

I would though really love to see other drow societies depicted as well, other than Lolthite ones. Vhaeraunian, Eilistraeean and Ghaundaurian ones. Buiyrandyn is a canon example of a drow city that embraced Eilistraee, but it was destroyed by illithids. Perhaps it could be retaken and rebuilt, maybe with the sponsorship of Waterdeep? Non-urban drow culture could be intriguing as well, say drow barbarian clans that dwell in underground black deserts and worship Selvetarm or other clans that worship Eilistraee (given her strong martial focus). Great Bhaerynden and the Underdark beneath Mulhorand (which currently has no name) would be a good place to put these, given that there is a not that many UD settlements there. There could be cultures that worship other gods than the Dark Seldarine. Shar, and in her as aspect as Ibrandul would make good sense for say a society of nomadic drow as well.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Hmm, that's a nice thought. That may also explain why the different Eilistraean communities are located where they are. I looked in a few places in different sourcebooks and didn't see much of anything. Would anyone happen to know of a list of those communities and their locations? If they have been operating in at least one drow city for centuries, they are going to need more than one place to put refugees. And, if they HAVE been around for centuries, some of those communities may have been destroyed over the years. Drow aren't allowed in Everneet so they would have stuck around during The Retreat.

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Just had a wicked idea: what if there was an Eilistraean city of the drow on one of the undeveloped continents of Toril? With maybe an Ondonti Orc city there, too. Sort of a continent of refugees? Gonna have to think about that, too.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Hmm, that's a nice thought. That may also explain why the different Eilistraean communities are located where they are. I looked in a few places in different sourcebooks and didn't see much of anything. Would anyone happen to know of a list of those communities and their locations? If they have been operating in at least one drow city for centuries, they are going to need more than one place to put refugees. And, if they HAVE been around for centuries, some of those communities may have been destroyed over the years. Drow aren't allowed in Everneet so they would have stuck around during The Retreat.

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Here's a canonical list: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_Eilistraee#Shrines_and_Temples

Though a few of those are just holy/pilgrimage places and don't have a community.

Keep in mind that, aside from all the practical reasons that might motivate the choice of a particular position, Eilistraeans also build their communities in places where it's easy for them to interact with other races. And I remember that a cleric of Eilistraee (named Karsel'lyn Lilil something) was stationed in Evermeet and working to convince Queen Amlaruil to allow her people in the island too.

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Just had a wicked idea: what if there was an Eilistraean city of the drow on one of the undeveloped continents of Toril? With maybe an Ondonti Orc city there, too. Sort of a continent of refugees? Gonna have to think about that, too.

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I don't see why this couldn't happen.

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Originally posted by Irennan
For an extremely long time, the implication has been (and still is) that the default Lolthite city runs exactly like Menzo, because Menzo is the main model. Then the are the outliers: Eryndlyn was meaningful, but WotC erased it from the map. Llurth Dreier was aberration heaven and certainly not a decent place to live (also, WotC erased it from the map). Sshamath could have been a good example of an organization of "have-nots, want mores" (wizards) channeling the rage of commoners into overthrowing the Lolthites, but nope. It was just a consequence of some really random deus ex machina that had male births immensely outnumber female births for a lot of years, for no reason at all. Undrek'Thoz was just the shift from one Lolthite organization (clergy) to another one (monks), equal in zeal but with different practices.

So, what we're left with? Nothing. There was no instance in over 12k years, in which we see a conflict born out of the dissatisfaction of the drow people under a society that reads like it was written by a 12 yo in his edgelord phase. No movement born of it. No schism. Absolutely nothing.

Not only that, but yes: as you say, if most cities followed the Lolthite dogma, you wouldn't have houses existing for an incredibly long time despite the backstabbing, and a lot of cities would have fallen to enemies like illithids or dwarves, due to the drow being an easy target due to how stupid their level of infighting is. However, despite the assumption being that most Lolthites are fanatics (and this is really rubbed in your face, starting from 3e and onward), despite the critical conditions, you still have things like houses surviving for a lot of centuries (like the Baenre), and the enemies of the drow never taking advantage of their weaknesses.

This is the problem, this is why it's "non-narrative". You can't set up such a ludicrous starting point, and then refuse to explore any of the consequences, and assume that such a thing would keep existing, fully intact, with 0 changes, 0 repercussions, for 12k years.

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Originally posted by TKU
This talk of Sshamath is interesting, since as a rare religiously neutral Drow city Eilistraeens probably wouldn't have too much difficulty 'setting up shop' there openly as long as they don't disrupt business or challenge the Wizards. Even the church of Lolth was still tolerated there under the new Hierarchy, though they had to refocus their clergy towards goods and services the temple could provide to 'keep the lights on'. It could be a good place for an Eilistraeen base that could operate openly.

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Originally posted by deserk

Definitely agree with a lot of the sentiments here. Menzoberranzan shouldn't be that important a city, nor should it be the focal point of Drow society. If anything, logically Guallidurth should be the most important drow city, and the city that defines what is archetypally a Lolthite society, given that it is one of the oldest still surviving drow cities in existence (the other being Llurth Dreier), as well as the largest drow city in Faerun's Underdark, and the oldest city worshipping Lolth. But we know very little about that city, or how it looks like, other than that it has several different sects and beliefs about Lolth. I asked Sages and Mages podcast about the city, and they in turn asked Ed Greenwood who basically said that it had been purposely neglected and not designed since it was the "old guard" type of drow society and that it rarely ever was in civil strife, inter-house warfare or turmoil like Menzoberranazan. But it's very hard to know what he even means by "old guard", when Menzoberranzan is the image everyone has when they think of the quintessential drow society in FR. But at least we can deduce from that, that maybe Lolthite society isn't as dysfunctional, wildly chaotic and self-destructive as RA Salvatore has depicted in the Drizzt books. Might be Ed has a different and more nuanced view on how Lolthites operate.

When it comes to Faerun's religions in general, he has alluded many times that there are many regional difference and heresies among the faiths of Toril, and that the particular deities often deliberately permit and promote different sects. Lolth given her chaotic nature would most assuredly be tempted to allow such as well.

I would though really love to see other drow societies depicted as well, other than Lolthite ones. Vhaeraunian, Eilistraeean and Ghaundaurian ones. Buiyrandyn is a canon example of a drow city that embraced Eilistraee, but it was destroyed by illithids. Perhaps it could be retaken and rebuilt, maybe with the sponsorship of Waterdeep? Non-urban drow culture could be intriguing as well, say drow barbarian clans that dwell in underground black deserts and worship Selvetarm or other clans that worship Eilistraee (given her strong martial focus). Great Bhaerynden and the Underdark beneath Mulhorand (which currently has no name) would be a good place to put these, given that there is a not that many UD settlements there. There could be cultures that worship other gods than the Dark Seldarine. Shar, and in her as aspect as Ibrandul would make good sense for say a society of nomadic drow as well.

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Originally posted by TKU

Guallidurth is the one Drow city I have really wanted to see get something like the boxed set treatment for ages. Oldest and Biggest Drow city? How is it not Lolth's favorite? The hundred's of different sects and temples with different beliefs sounds truly fascinating. I want to see the weird sects and heresies, unusual social hierarchies turned sideways and on their heads from what we 'know' about drow society. Sects that conflate other deities as aspects of Lolth, that sort of thing.

Nomadic Drow is almost required to be a thing in the Realms considering the timeline. IIRC there's a huge gap between the formation of the Great Rift and the foundation of Menzo, and those Drow were supposedly wandering that whole time, so there *should* be a tradition of nomadic Drow thousands of years old...that we just never got to see.

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Originally posted by TKU
Menzo being the 'base model' as you say is an issue, particularly in more recent editions where everything starts to look more and more homogenous either from various cities and deities getting destroyed/killed off, or from just being de-emphasized/sidelined to the point of obscurity. (Ched Nassad going from Menzo's bigger, richer and more prestigious sister city, to getting demoted to vassal, to getting completely destroyed is a good example of this in action).

But the divergent cities were still written in, and show that the Menzo model and variations of it are vulnerable and fall or change all the time. Whether the timeline of things is realistic is another thing altogether -I don't think there are actually many examples of 10+ year cities out there outside of a few outliers like T'lindhet, Guallidurth...maybe Ust Natha. Menzo itself (and Ust Natha, by extension) were something like 5k, and Sshamath 6k, Undrek'Thoz being 'only' about 1k. and if everything was constantly like what we have seen during the silence of Lolth or in Menzo with constant revolutions and upheavals there likely shouldn't be many Drow cities left at all (Lolth or otherwise), but I think there are enough blank spaces in the histories of these cities (and of the Drow in the underdark in general) that it's quite possible that a lot of these cities weren't always Lolthite...heck maybe some of them have flipped from one deity to another multiple times in their history, been abandoned and reclaimed, etc.

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This talk of Sshamath is interesting, since as a rare religiously neutral Drow city Eilistraeens probably wouldn't have too much difficulty 'setting up shop' there openly as long as they don't disrupt business or challenge the Wizards. Even the church of Lolth was still tolerated there under the new Hierarchy, though they had to refocus their clergy towards goods and services the temple could provide to 'keep the lights on'. It could be a good place for an Eilistraeen base that could operate openly.

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias Drow (C12)

She worked as an agent of Queen Amlaruil. Her visit to Evermeet was to request that the Retreat be open to some Drow, those followers of Eilistraee. She failed in that request.

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