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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 18:29:23
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| I typically only take notes on visual appearance, gear, and chronology. I'm not really knowledgeable enough about fighting styles to know what to take note of. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 00:25:37
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*sighs* why do I always stumble on these interesting discussions so late? I haven't read through everyone's comments, but here is my take:
I LOVED Phaeraun and Ryld, along with Valas. I did find their deaths kind of cheap (and I hated Jeggrad (sp?), so that's part of the reason why). In Empyrean Odyssey, I got excited when Phaeraun was resurrected (fan girl, what can I say?), and I wanted to throw the book when he died AGAIN. He died in Celestia, the realm of another god. I would think that a god could go "hey, look, soul!" And snatch it, but maybe they didn't want Phaeraun *sad face*. And when he was brought back, it was implied that he was being tortured in the Abyss. He spoke fondly of Ryld though, and I thought maybe they would have found each other in the Abyss, but then again, the place is big, and both were probably uh, occupied.
I like the idea of Vhaeraun stealing them away from Lolth. Phaeraun in particular I think would make a good Vhaeraunite. In an RP I do with a friend, a follower of Vhaeraun had a twin brother who was in Lolth's realm, and so he and his lover--who is kind of like an emissary of V, so he has the powah) went to Lolth's realm and snatched the twin's soul, bringing him to Vhaeraun's realm, which, I would argue, is a better place, despite V also being an evil god (the twin was later rezzed anyway, but that's a different story).
I highly doubt this would happen, but a girl can dream, so here's what I'd like to see: either somehow, have V or his followers snatch Ryld and Phaeraun's soul out from under Lolth's nose, and put them in V's realm. Or, has them resurrected and then become Vhaeraunites (if Vhaeraun is brought back during the Sundering). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 16:25:32
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quote:
Ryld would've beaten him, straight up - if Jeggred didn't miraculously find this +100 Axe that could blast through Splitter (which was made over and over in the book to be a stunning weapon) and then right through his dwarven breast plate. What a joke and one of the worst deaths of a great character I've seen, ever in a fantasy book. It galls me to no end how that Axe, carried by a random human, happened to be so amazingly strong is cuts amazing weapons in half. Not only that, jeggred never used weapons. He fought with tooth and claw.
Yeah, the axe thing galled me too. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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canupoa
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2021 : 18:57:28
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So I am just reading through Extinction(V) and Ryld has just died. This is likely coloring my thoughts a bit and am likely looking for a place to vent. This will be mostly about Ryld then.
Through the first four books Rylds character is great. It has continuity between the books and is progressing. A character that progress' through their story is one of the higher hallmarks of a great character to me.
Dissolution(I) felt like a much larger book to me than the other ones. A lot happens in the book. For Ryld we learn he is very much a Drizzt character. He does not fit the Evil archetype of the rest of his race and he is aware of this fact.
Unlike others that have said he is not a genius, I would have to disagree. He is very much portrayed as a genius fighter, never crediting his size to his rise in stature, but his skill and tactical ability. Nevermind his perception speed. The book makes quite the show of how much he can process in seconds, far above the norm of anyone in real life and likely high enough in the our fantasy setting. He is a Sava Grandmaster, which I would compare to Chess or Shogi, and from my recollection is never beaten throughout the story.
We have Pharauns betrayal occur here. Really showcasing Rylds difference from other Drow. He is truly hurt by this and is the death of the friendship.
Insurrection(II), Ryld has a budding attraction to Halistra, but for the most part we are shown more proof of his differences to other Drow. He seems tired of the Sava game of Drow society/hierarchy and a yearning to be able to trust or have a relationship without constant vigilance of being betrayed.
Condemnation(III) is much of the same for Ryld, but his character still feels consistent. His attraction to Halistra is reinforced, her and her wellbeing is often on his mind.
Extinction(IV) we have Ryld abandoning the rest of the party to go after Halistra where the relationship begins in earnest. He is quite conflicted here though, unsure of his goals and desires. He reached his pinnacle, as far as society in Menzoberranzan, and is unsure of what to do here; only knowing he wants to be with Halistra.
He was bored in his position in Menzoberranzan and with the way he has been progressing I get the impression that he will try and make this work and continue progressing with Halistra. That they together will rejoin the group with the ulterior motive of killing Lolth.
Annnnd nope.
Annihilation(V). So I have been reading these back to back and like I said at the start, have only gotten just past Rylds death.
I can not find the justifications for why I felt this, but right from the beginning of the book Ryld seems to have regressed. Regressed to some place I think even before we meet him in the first book. He seems to retreat into himself and grows at odds with Halistra, for what feels like very little reason. The continuity of his character that I felt through the first four books is gone, instantly. With in the first lines I felt he was a different character.
This seems to be mostly Danifaes book. And man is there a lot I do not like about it.
Sschindylryn makes very little sense to me. If you had all these portals one would think they would become a trade hub and therefore connect to other cities like Ched Nasad and Menzoberranzan... but it doesn't... which makes sense. That would make the whole traveling through the Underdark dangerous, well, moot. So needless to say, I do not like Sschidylryn at all.
Danifae also gains the godly ability to seemingly go anywhere. Arrives silently, leaves silently. With one ring she can return from anywhere to Sschidylryn, with the only handicap being that she can only take one other person with her... not much of a handicap. From there she is able to divine the location of anyone with the portals and then go to them. On top of that she also has a second ring that will return the wearer to the ship of chaos... like.. what?!
Then there is her actions. At first when she gains this power I thought, oh this is how Ryld and Halistra are going to rejoin the party. Nope, it will be for revenge. She will kill both Halistra, for revenge, and Ryld... just because... uhh traitor, yeah. But then... she does not kill Halistra...
There is no, I will kill Ryld to hurt Halistra, or anything like that. She sets Jeggred on Ryld and then takes Halistra to Sschindylryn and then asks her where she wants to go, to Ryld or the Elistree Drow, which Halistra for no reason chooses the surface Drow and without anything else Danifae just sends Halistra to them.... What?!
Finally we get to the Jeggred and Ryld fight that brought me here. What happened? Though he admits that he can not likely win through strength he might be able to through his skill. Skill which up to this point I though was quite high, high enough that he would only have a handful of peers. Nope.
He has two choices entering the tavern, run or fight. His leg is gravely injured so I was leaning towards: fight then tend to my wounds. The initial six(?) seem that they will be of little hinderance to Jeggred so Ryld does not run. Jeggred kills one of the get go and engages three more. Instead of dodging the attacks of the two that face him and pushing them towards Jeggred and then aiding them against him creating a unified front... he kills both of them. He gained nothing by doing that. If anything he now removed fodder/obstacles for Jeggred to have to go through and created slipping hazards with their blood and tripping hazards with their bodies.
Ok our first batch of Humans depart the world. We now have 5 new ones enter. These actually have some weapons including a veteran fighter in the form of Rab Shuoc, which we gain some unnecessary back story for. So Ryld changes plans here, these guys might slow him down enough, I'll run away. He gets caught by the foot and pulled back into the Inn. Jeggred is attacked in the back by a man woman spear couple and one guy with a sword. Jeggred spins around and pushes the two spear wielders away. The one with the sword moves to attack Ryld and again instead of dodging the attack and keeping a piece on the board he kills the swordsman. Jeggred breaks the woman's spear, Ryld throws her the sword, Jeggred kills the other spearman, the woman runs.
So... there is no fifth guy, there is only four and our veteran never swings his axe the entire fight. So Ryld and the reader have no idea it is enchanted, nevermind more enchanted than Ryld's +5ish keen greater dispelling sword. Kind of like Danifae's rings... this Great axe is pure crap in my opinion. Rab is not some great hero, how did he get an axe that is better than Ryld's sword?
Now, Jeggred is facing Rab and Ryld, again, makes a terrible decision. One human left, I am badly injured, I should take this opportunity to gravely and decisively attack Jeggred. Maybe aim to remove a leg. Nope. He feints(maybe) an attack at Rab then slashes Jeggred's back. What?! Followed by stupid mechanic random op axe is then used to defeat Ryld easily.
Just... wow.
As far as bringing Ryld back to go on hijinks with Pharaun, I disagree. Like I said near the start, their friendship died in book one. Any buddy action would have to pull them out before Pharaun's betrayal. And if someone were to bring Ryld back I would say it has to be Halistra.
As far as the Ryld and Halistra relationship, I thought it was perfect and worked great with Rylds progression and discontent. But, in Anniilation(V) again, where I thought Halistra would help convince Ryld to stay with her and maybe convert him... nothing. Or on Rylds side where he has some self reflection and decides what to do. Does his love for Halistra and the possibility of escaping Lolth society out weight the place he built in Menzo? I do not see his practicality fitting in either side of the equation, his practicality will keep him alive, the decision is where to live.
Where he would fit in Eilistraee society or a comparing of Lolths to Eilistraee society is barely done. We know where he fits in Lolths but for Eilistraee we only know that it seems to be Female centric, I do not even recall another male being there the whole time.
So the reader has no information and neither does Ryld... so he just stays confused and indecisive. Touching on Halistra again, I wanted them to grow and mature together. Halistra is a justifiable mess by book five. Ryld on the other hand has no excuse to not think rationally. I hoped together they could iron out each other. Ryld would simply make a decision and Halistra could return to rational thought and stop making rash decisions. Basically they could stabilize each other. They of course don't. Ryld never makes a decision or even works towards one in any meaningful way and Halistra (follows Danifae to Sschidylryn then goes back to the Eilistraee camp) is making even more unhinged decisions.
(again I say this all having not finished book 5, started 6, or read The Empyrean Odyssey(which I aim to read next))
I found this: https://www.realmshelps.net/npc/ryld_argith.shtml
As far as gear and what not goes. Can agree with all of it. |
Edited by - canupoa on 22 Jan 2021 19:08:44 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2021 : 20:28:53
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quote:
Where he would fit in Eilistraee society or a comparing of Lolths to Eilistraee society is barely done. We know where he fits in Lolths but for Eilistraee we only know that it seems to be Female centric, I do not even recall another male being there the whole time.
Keep in mind that, as typical of Smedman's and Athans' stuff, the depiction of the Eilistraean society is intentionally warped into unrecognizability with the purpose of getting the readers to dislike her. It was the result of a trend going on among some WotC higher-ups back then, who were hell-bent on distorting Eilistaree and followers into the opposite of what they stand for, because they wanted Drizzt to be the only "real good drow". Books 4-6 of WotSQ are absolutely awful if you want a portrayal of Eilistraeans. All the baffling, negative crap that you see Eilistraeans doing--from the ladyland trope to killing lycanthropes for fun--were the result of that (and of sniping specific lines of lore in previous books, or concepts essential to the character, just to subvert them in the worst way possible).
In a true-to-lore representation, Ryld would have fit from the get go, because Eilistraee acts as an empowerer/mother-like deity to the drow, male and female alike, and she works to help all of them find their own path, rediscover the beauty that they were denied, and thrive in the surface world. The lore explicitly states that males and females can expect a gender equal treatment among Eilistraeans, and (quoting from the wiki)
"the role of the priestesses (i.e. most often the leaders) in the society was to act as an extension of Eilistraee's own motherhood of the drow, and become teachers, protectresses, and diplomats. They sheltered, fed, and healed any drow lost in the surface world, and actively reached for them in the Underdark. They aided their people to learn to live and forge their own path in a hostile world, by providing practical help in the matters of each dark elf's everyday life—which included, among the various things, the teaching of skills pertinent to survival, gathering, healing, crafting, and hunting. They also worked to lift spirits (by nurturing and teaching arts like music and dance), and to confort and lead the drow rediscover a sense of belonging and community. The priestesses of Eilistraee were also tasked with protecting their people from danger, and with building a place in the surface world for them to live, by establishing friendships and relationships with other races."
Ryld would have been offered a home and a community to belong to, as well as a platform to find his own purpose. Meanwhile, Smedman and Athans paint the Eilistraeans as uniformly crass, misandrist, uncompassionate, and violent. They come to the point of mutilating males for daring to watch the very dances that they're supposed to participate in the lore, for example, and to make Ryld feel like he had no place among them. It's crazy levels of stupid, because the Eilistraeans are the exact opposite of that and have the exact opposite goal.
Then again, the whole portrayal is just wrong. For example, the writers doggedly associating Eilistraee with the intent of killing Lolth (through some kind of crusade led by 3 randoms at that), rather than putting all the efforts into rescuing the drow from the many cities that fell, and using the upheaval to propagate new ideas and open the minds of the drow to the truth. Let's not mention how shallow and nonsensical the very idea that killing Lolth would miraculously make the drow non evil was.
In any case, these are very well known issues with all of Smedman's and Athans' books regarding drow, and I guess it's one of the (many) reasons why WotC retconned this storyline from the current Forgotten Realms. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Jan 2021 20:32:56 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2021 : 20:45:10
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If you want a more accurate portrayal of Eilistraee and her followers, check out anything by Elaine Cunningham, particularly Starlight and Shadows.
I won't give anything away, but I agree Ryld should have become an Eilistraeen. As Irennan said, there was a move by WotC to make Drizzt "extra special", so Eilistraee was turned to a (slightly less) vindictive version of Lolth, rather than the nurturing goddess she is. Keep this in mind if you read Lady Penitent, which is also a follow-up to War of the Spider Queen. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2021 : 21:02:23
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| Yeah, Lady Penitent is even 10x worse than WotSQ in that regard. It's one of the biggest offenders in terms of sh*tting on lore in the whole FR history, with the difference that it was intentional and... well, malicious. WotC outright refuses to even mention anything in that series now, as doing so would be committing career suicide for them. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2021 : 23:27:30
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It's not just the Eilistraee stuff that is problematic with the WotSQ books... How about the fact that deities get power from worship -- yet Lolth ignored her worshippers, causing a lot of death and destruction among her followers, and literally ate herself, and somehow came out more powerful?
Here it is as a math problem: You have three apples, all the same size. You throw one away. You mash the other two into each other, then separate them. You now have four apples, all the same size as the first three. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Jan 2021 23:28:38 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2021 : 23:52:47
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| Yes, there are many problems of that kind in the series. I only addressed the Eilistraee stuff because canupoa talked about Ryld's place in her society, and I specifically remembered that laughable line about Ryld coming to the conclusion that males had no place among Eilistraeans. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jan 2021 00:20:49 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 00:23:04
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In some ways I can agree, though in other ways, I don't mind Eilistraeeans having moral flaws. After all most of them have grown up in Lolthite drow society, which would have left a deep psychological imprint on them that would be almost impossible to heal. I think it is interesting that despite their claims of worshipping a benevolent goddess, they still struggle to shake off years of indoctrinated misandry, distrust and xenophobia. I would imagine most Eilistraeeans to be neutral in alignment rather than good, personally speaking. Especially when the outside world is so very hostile towards them (quick to mistake them for Lolth or Vhaeraun worshippers). Imagine how many surfacers must be quick and eager to blame them when drow of the Underdark commit atrocities or slave raids in the surface world.
Though I have to say I find it strange that the Eilistreean community in Velarswood was so quick to forgive Halistra for murdering one of their priestesses. I was lead to believe Eilistraeeans were very zealous and vindictive in protecting members of their community. And I would have honestly expected Eilistraeeans to be more careful when dealing with a worshipper of Lolth.
I really like the character of Ryld as well, and yeah I hated the way he died. For a drow he was a very relatable character, remarkably "mundane", simple and down-to-earth, as well as being a survivor of the brutality of drow society (especially how brutal it can be for a non-noble drow). Unlike Drizzt, he wastes little time complaining about the unfairness of the world, and instead focuses on enduring and surviving it as best he can. He is psychologically tough as nails and stoic, as well as sharp and perceptive enough to navigate his way through the treacherous landscape of drow society. He deserved a better end. It would have been great to have seen more sword & sorcery style adventures with him and Pharaun travelling the city-states of the Underdark, as they were a great and fun duo in the first book |
Edited by - deserk on 23 Jan 2021 00:34:33 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 00:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
In some ways I can agree, though in other ways, I don't mind Eilistraeeans having moral flaws. After all most of them have grown up in Lolthite drow society, which would have left a deep psychological imprint on them that would be almost impossible to heal. I think it is interesting that despite their claims of worshipping a benevolent goddess, they still struggle to shake off years of indoctrinated misandry, distrust and xenophobia. I would imagine most Eilistraeeans to be neutral in alignment rather than good, personally speaking. Especially when the outside world is so very hostile towards them (quick to mistake them for Lolth or Vhaeraun worshippers). Imagine how many surfacers must be quick and eager to blame them when drow of the Underdark commit atrocities or slave raids in the surface world.
Though I have to say I find it strange that the Eilistreean community in Velarswood was so quick to forgive Halistra for murdering one of their priestesses. I was lead to believe Eilistraeeans were very zealous and vindictive in protecting members of their community. And I would have honestly expected Eilistraeeans to be more careful when dealing with a worshipper of Lolth.
Emphasis mine.
Most Eilistraeans aren't converts. A faith can't be made up by mostly converts, quantitatively speaking, unless:
a) it's *very* new--like first adherents new (Eilistraee's faith is older than Lolth's on Toril)
b) after this many millennia, it's ungodly large (again, not the case). We'd probably need to use the logistic equation (or something along those lines) to verify this, but with an income of converts so large that they're constantly more than both the older population AND the new births added together, to me it seems that it must be pretty large (I hope I'm not totally off-base, but it should be a pretty large increment factor "k", and assuming a large environment carrying capacity "K").
c) Eilistraeans constantly die like flies, but are *ludicrously* efficient at converting people and making kids (again, not the case), so they keep a constant number.
Most Eilistraeans were born in their society (for example, the Promenade was started by a squad full of drow who had never experienced Lolth's society). The Eilistraeans have no reason to be misandrist, bullies, or uncompassionate as a whole. Among the former Lolthites, there are a lot of old timers as well--they ought to have mostly overcome their Lolthite imprinting.
Eilistraeans have their own culture, which is older than Lolth's, and has led to one of the largest centers of arts and magic in the First Flowering era. They might have fallen and rebuilt multiple times, but they're certainly not just damaged Lolthite converts, nor they are Lolthites that think themselves good, like Smedmans tries to make the readers believe.
Even if you want to paint the new converts doing crap, do it like Elaine did--the faith as a whole is very positive, then you get outliers. Have the rest of the faith condemn bullying, violence, misandrism. Smedman painted everyone on board with it, even Qilué herself.
Which leads to the fact that *all* Eilistraeans were painted like that, and that not only contradicts the lore, it defeats the very core of what Eilistraeans do and stand for (they were associated with wanton violence, random mutilations, misandrism, and outright stupid stuff--like making drow feel rejected, males not being allowed to take part in the communal dances, or the total lack of Eilistraean males). It was an intentional act of smearing, and an objectively wrong depiction of that faction.
Furthermore, our preferences don't really matter for this discussion; if the lore specifically says one thing (most Eilistraeans are good and stand for very specific ideas), and then an author goes out of their way to take and distort it into something urecognizable, which goes against the very core of those characters, then that author is just sh*tting on other people's work and disrespecting it. In this case, it wasn't a matter of showing different facets of a faction, it was a matter of intentionally warping a character and a whole faction. It was out of malicious intent (even Erik de Bie commented on that), prompted by an extremely childish and toxic kind of fanboyism that was rampant within the company back then.
As an example, I don't mind at all WotC removing the "the drow were cursed to be dark-skinned" thingy in 5e (I'm actually glad of it), but that doesn't mean it doesn't contradict the actual FR lore, and I believe they should have left the FR version as it was. And this change wasn't even harmful, nor it had the intent of making people dislike the creation of others, unlike Smedman's and Athans' depictions of Eilistraee.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jan 2021 02:52:46 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 01:05:48
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As for Ryld, the trend is to make a character suddenly appear unrelatable and unlikable before killing them off. Ryld was never meant to become permanent, nor the series was meant to bring any real change--in fact, Salvatore said that his involvement in the story was motivated by wanting to keep the drow in a certain way for his future stories. If I were to guess why Ryld was never meant to stay (like other characters), I'd say that it was for the exact same Drizzt fanboyism that led to the laughable portrayal of Eilistraee. RAS' cast would be less special if we had other non-evil drow--especially male warriors!--right? In any case, throghout the series, you could really feel the hand of a bad editor forcing things down a certain (nonsensical) path, because they wanted things to go in a certain way (aka no change to happen, when massive changes should have happened).
Basically, it's non-narrative, a bunch of scenes with fireworks to throw smoke in the eyes of the reader, but that had none of the elements that make narrative. The problem was a lack of direction and of any kind of thematic viewpoint IMHO, and if you don't have that, how can you even start building the main characters? Which explains why each author did their own thing with the characters--most of them came off as defined through archetypes, rather than as centered on exploring a facet of the core conflict of the story (with this I don't mean "Lolth is absent, let's scheme!!!" but whatever thematic conflict that the silence should have represented. For example, "failure to adapt leads to ruin", which this story lacked).
To make a cliché example, a story where the good guys defeat the dragon through the power of friendship is not about battling the dragon (or amassing enough magic/forces/whatever to defeat it). That's the "fun&games"(the A story). The true story (B story) is about the truth the good guys learn and that leads them to defeat the dragon--aka (in this specific, cliché example) that unity leads to victory (this is called premise or thematic viewpoint). The heart of the conflict wouldn't be finding a way to defeat the evil dragon and his minons, but the internal differences that prevent the good guys from uniting and understanding that organized coopertation is the solution they're looking for. Only after they learn to set those differences aside, they can succeed.
This is the kind of stuff that is lacking in WotSQ. What must the characters learn to succeed, and how will they fail if they don't learn that premise/thematic viewpoint? Unless we want to see the premise of WotSQ as "resist change and survive; embrace it and die", and the central conflict would be that the characters are confronted with the possibilities of change, but those who stay rooted in their outdated beliefs through blind faith or brainwashing win, and those who instead try to change either lose or outright die. Which would be the most crappy kind of conflict and premise I've ever seen in fiction, tbh, because it takes the very engine of narrative (adapt->win; refuse->lose) and tries to make a story out of denying it.
Anyway, this is where my biggest criticism of the series comes from. If you don't have a central conflict defined on this level, you can't build strong characters for your story. The characters basically are the premise concretized in their flaws and in the struggle to overcome them and not lose the stakes (or the failure in doing so). Without a B plot, what would the characters even be about? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jan 2021 01:57:13 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 01:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As for Ryld, the trend is to make a character suddenly appear unrelatable and unlikable before killing them off. Ryld was never meant to become permanent, nor the series was meant to bring any real change--in fact, Salvatore said that is involvement in the story was motivated by wanting to keep the drow in a certain way for his future stories. If I were to guess why Ryld was never meant to stay (like other characters), I'd same that it was for the exact same Drizzt fanboyism that led to the laughable portrayal of Eilistraee. RAS' cast would be less special if we had other non-evil drow--especially male warriors!--right? In any case, throghout the series, you could really feel the hand of a bad editor forcing things down a certain (nonsensical) path, because they wanted things to go in a certain way (aka no change to happen, when massive changes should have happened). Basically, it's non-narrative, a bunch of scenes with fireworks to throw smoke in the eyes of the reader, but that had none of the elements that make narrative.
Which is sadly ironic, considering RAS himself has said Drizzt isn't the only goodly drow, yet he continually sh*ts on the Eilistraeens, and, using Ryld as an example, and good (or at least not matron mother evil), drow that isn't his character (Jarlaxle).
I always liked Ryld--really, I liked several characters from WotSQ, and I have felt they all got the short end of the stick (I won't go into more detail, to avoid spoilers for canupoa). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 23 Jan 2021 01:45:50 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 02:00:02
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| Yep, they either got the short end of the stick, or they were made into unbearable idiots (like Halisstra), or both. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 02:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In any case, throghout the series, you could really feel the hand of a bad editor forcing things down a certain (nonsensical) path, because they wanted things to go in a certain way (aka no change to happen, when massive changes should have happened).
I'm rather convinced that any editing done was done on individual books, without any concern for the others -- because some of the characters (especially the draegloth) underwent rather jarring personality shifts from book to book. A good editor could have smoothed that out; so I conclude there was no unified editing.
It could have just been a bad editor, I suppose, though... I think Ryld's death was a painfully executed trope. And one of the things about the series that stands out the most for me, years after reading the books, was a mention of a snake with venom on its tongue. Why does that bug me, so long after I read the books? Because snakes don't work that way. They don't get venom on their tongues -- they inject venom through their fangs when they're biting something. A snake's tongue is a sensory organ; it doesn't have anything to do with delivery of venom. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 02:49:13
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| Well, the editors were just Athans and RAS, and RAS said his contribution was mostly making sure that Menzo/the drow stayed where he wanted it, so you could definitely say it was about bad editing and forcing stuff. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jan 2021 02:53:06 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 11:39:58
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| One thing I also appreciate about WotSQ as well as Lady Penitent was the effort put to representing the other faiths of the Dark Seldarine, even if it misrepresented Eilistraeeans to a degree. I did also like the idea of the Masked Lady heresy. In RAS books, I don't think we've ever seen a mention of Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, Kiaransalee or Ghaunadaur, which is quite strange, given how many of his books deal with the Underdark. It gives you an impression that those gods don't exist in RAS' Forgotten Realms. And yeah, it gets a bit repetitive seeing stories again and again of the self-destructive habits of the drow noble houses of Menzo. I would really appreciate personally exploring the less explored parts of drow society. For example how life is for the drow commoner/underclass, as well as the suppressed faiths of other Dark Seldarine, or surface drow on Cormanthor, etc. |
Edited by - deserk on 23 Jan 2021 11:41:25 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 17:08:25
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Well, that's pretty ironic. You say those series put an effort into represeting other deities of the Dark Seldarine (side note: nope, they really didn't, because they violated key aspects of Eilistraee's--and even Vhaeraun's, in LP--characters, and didn't even put an effort into getting trivial stuff like rituals and equipment right), but the goal of those series, as outright stated by WotC, was to get rid of those faiths to make Drizzt "moar special" (as well as getting people to dislike Eilistraee, as commented by Erik Soctt de Bie) and definitely NOT representing the whole drow pantheon faithfully. It was all about making sure that no more stories about them would ever be written (and thankfully, it failed. Kinda).
Elaine Cunningham did it well; Smedman and Athans just crapped on other drow faiths and showed 0 artistic intergrity (or perhaps even personal integrity), because they took the work of others and put an effort into giving people a false portrayal of it, with the malicious intent of distorting their opinion. The erasure of those two series is a good riddance for the FR, as they only took away and added nothing.
Lady Penitent, in particular, even reads as a non-canon tale from the get go, because Smedman and Athans had to force their own non-canon nonsense on Eilistraee in order for their story to even start being written. Yes, the whole plot is based on stuff that make absolutely 0 sense in canon, like a false position being associated to Eilistraee's realm, her goal doing a sudden 180, and her and her faith being associated with things that are objectively antithetical to them. Without those non-canon assumptions, the story couldn't have even started, which is why it reads as an apocryphal tale from the very start. Sort of like a book written by an in-universe Lolthite who's clueless about things really work, and who can't understand Eilistraeans at all.
So, the mistakes are not just to a degree, they come to the point of defeating the very core of the characters those books were supposed to represent. I'll put a few detailed examples of the degree of misportrayal reached by Smedman's/Athans' stuff below.
SPOILER warning for canupa.
quote:
1)Lolth-like Misandrism:
in the lore, males can participate in the dances, and many dances are communal, yet Smedman had a rule where males could be effing mutilated for daring to watch a dance. Even more importantly, males are welcomed and given acceptance and the support they need to find their happiness, like everyone else (there are even bits of lore that explicitly tell you that males are treated the same as females, even in articles published to supplement the WotSQ series), yet Smedman had ALL priestesses being abusive to any and all males. Especially Ryld, who was made to feel like "he had no place" (seriously, as I said, that's the exact opposite of what Eilistraee is all about), when he would have been welcomed and cared for, had the portrayal of the Eilistraeans been true-to-lore&character. Or Q'arlynd, a refugee who had lost everything, met with a crass and totally uncompassionate attitude by Eilistraee's priestess, and forced to swear loyalty or somesuch before being sheltered (contrary to what Eilistraee's lore says). Overall, the generally matriarchal society of the Eilistraeans, meant to paint a more positive picture of a society with women in power and taking care of their people (against Lolth's "women in power=crap"), was distorted into a Lolth knockoff.
2)Lack of compassion, abuse, and tyranny:
In the lore, Eilistraeans welcome people who struggle, who feel like outcasts, who have need of a place in the world. Smedman had them kill lycanthropes indiscriminately and for no reason, and then make some macabre trophy trees out of them worthy of Malarites, in the very region where the Eilistraeens are explicitly stated to befriend Selune-worshipping lycanthropes (Velarswood). The book heavily implies that they would have killed a friggin' kid, if not for Ryld. This leans towards sadism, and is typical of the Lolthites.
In the lore, Eilistraeens heal the wounded, all of them, and feed the hungry, because it's the right thing to do, and to build friendships with other races. Smedman had priestesses engage in friggin' dictation of faith by demanding that people convert to their religion before healing them--in the very region where it's stated that one of the main jobs of the priestesses is heal the wounded and shelter people who come there. Not only that, Qilué herself is seen exploiting a half-orc boy that they had sheltered by sending him on a suicide mission. Wtf?
Moreover, as we know, Eilistraeans are obviously all for building a new future for all drow and offering second chances. They're strong on compassion and redemption. Nope, Smedman has them friggin' execute a large group of *defenseless* drow, with no significant opposition to the order that was given to them, despite the lore even stating that Eilistraean hierarchy is very loose, and that everyone can chime in in importan decisions. This is even more ridiculous than Ryld being made felt like he had no place, it's just a joke. Which leads to:
3)Dogmatic approach, intolerance, and internal strife:
As I said, the lore says that Eilistraeans have a very loose hierarchy, as they all stand on the same ground, and even Qilué is seen as a big sister (see Faiths&Pantheons). They're also a free-form faith, as they value freedom of expression. Meanwhile Smedman makes it all about hierarchy and dogmatic approaches and heavy coded rituals--typical of Lolth.
When her church was joined by some Vhaeraunites, Eilistraee's priestesses mistreated them by often engaging in abuse, bullying, and even sabotage in important missions (like withholding passwords or info). Internal strife typical of Lolth. They also were so heavy on demanding obedience and stuff like that--again, against the very explicit lines of lore about them.
4)Eilistraee herself being painted as Lolth-like, as well as condemning/abandoning the vast majority of drow:
Eilistraee is a goddess whose M.O. is explicitly stated in various sources, like Demihuman Deities, to be that of an empowerer--never forcing a choice on her people, but enabling them to find their own path and fulfill themselves (Elaine Cunningham also shows this very well in her Starlights&Shadows). She also teaches the drow that they matter as individuals, unlike Lolth leads them to believe, and teaches them acceptance and self-acceptance. Instead, Smedman does this:
4.1)Has Eilistraee literally using her people as expendable chess pawns, uncaring of their misery and agency, in a ploy to overthrow Lolth. Eilistraee was generally portrayed as massively disregarding the feelings and safety of her people (so, the exact opposite of what she is)--not to mention their success. This started in WotSQ, with a--let's be honest here--idiotically conceived crusade that sent 2 random low-mid level priestesses and an equally random "chosen one" with some sword to the friggin' Demonwebs, and continued in LP with the chess game, or when we even see Qilué breaking in tears when she found out that her death was part of Eilistraee's plan (which we then learn boiled down to race-changing a handful of drow so daddy would be pleased--and she wanted to kill her "beloved" chosen for that). Qilué broke in tears because she had given so much to build the faith, and now she couldn't even see it flourish. However, Eilistraee didn't even do as little as reaching to her in that situation (and the irony is that we can't even really feel bad for Qilué, because she had done the same with that half-orc boy). Wtf is this cruelty (and utter incompetence)? This is antithetical to Eilistraee, and far closer to Lolth.
4.2)Remember the part about Eilistraee working to empower the drow, becoming one of them, and working to let them understand that they have value as individuals, and teach them the self-worth that Lolth strips from them (to the point of having a ritual dedicated just to that--the Evensong--which Smedman describes 100% wrong, btw)? Well, scrap that apparently. Smedman/Athans associate Eilistraee with a forced physical change rained on her people as "salvation" and a "reward" for their goodness (unrelated note: a change into lighter skin tone race on top of that, because goodness is but a shade lighter!). Smedman associates Eilistraee with a toxic idea of "redemption" as "redeem for being drow" (100% contrary to the self-worth that she tries to teach again to the drow) and with the violence of a forced race-change inflicted on her people, just so that Corellon (the very dude who cursed the drow and made them what they are) would accept their race-changed version--since they were not worthy of being accepted like they were, with the bodies they were born with and for the good choices they made, apparently. They had to be "purified" for good-guy Corellon to be happy with them (and this in spite of Demihuman Deities explicitly describing the relationship between Eilistraee and Corellon as strained, because Eilistraee's forging her own path, and she has very different ideas about the drow from her father).
Smedman even comes to the point of stating that this was the plan all along (while Eilistraee, in over 12k years never did anything related to this, never even talked about it--she did the opposite, becoming drow herself), and that to Eilistraee&Corellon the rest of the drow (all of them, basically, since only a few hundreds were transformed) were instead "unwilling and to be cast down". Before you tell me that this was a "lifted curse", that's not the case. The few hundreds who were transformed had always been drow, drow was what they were, and that's one reason why Eilistraee herself chose to be drow to stay with them. Smedman doesn't shy from doing what comes close to mockery by showing us only transformed ones that were either horrified by it, or simply didn't give a f**k about it, reinforcing the idea that all of this thing that she presented as Eilistraee's ultimate goal was actually useless and/or harmful.
All of this crap is associated to a goddess who has always given her all to reach to all drow, and who willingly gave up on the luxury and comfort of Arvandor and embraced a path that she knew would be filled with hardships, just to stay with all of them. The she suddenly decides that the vast majority of drow are trash and decides to discard them to force a race change on a handful of her followers. Yes, not even all of them. In fact, if Smedman or Athans had bothered to even glance at the lore, they would have known that Eilistraee as at very least thousands of followers, not hundreds, and wouldn't have written that only hundreds--aka a narrow % of them--was transformed, while the rest was discarded. This also implied that the Eilistraee not only suddenly gave up on all she had fought for and believed in for millennia, she even abandoned the vast majority of her followers, because "unwilling and to be cast down"! Lol. Again, what a friggin' joke.
It's undeniable that this is defeating of the very core of Eilistraee's character, on top of being just a gross concept. No wonder WotC pretends this stuff has never been written now--thankfully.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jan 2021 17:40:37 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 21:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
One thing I also appreciate about WotSQ as well as Lady Penitent was the effort put to representing the other faiths of the Dark Seldarine, even if it misrepresented Eilistraeeans to a degree. I did also like the idea of the Masked Lady heresy. In RAS books, I don't think we've ever seen a mention of Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, Kiaransalee or Ghaunadaur, which is quite strange, given how many of his books deal with the Underdark. It gives you an impression that those gods don't exist in RAS' Forgotten Realms. Cormanthor, etc.
RAS has a weird thing against Eilistraee (all the FR gods. I think he's projecting his real world bitterness towards Catholicism into the Realms). Eilistraee was created in '91, a few years after Drizzt. Maybe he was chagrined that her followers suddenly made Drizzt less special, but it doesn't, really. Drizzt's story is still his story, and the Realms (as an established setting), was still fairly young at that time, with stuff being developed and added, so I don't see how adding a benevolent drow goddess takes away from Drizzt. Plus, RAS keeps saying Drizzt isn't the only goodly drow. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 00:06:17
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| Eilistraee was published in '91, but Ed had already created her (and I think Vhaeraun too) for his own FR far before then. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Jan 2021 02:28:50 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 08:19:13
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I actually just finished reading this series sometime late last month, and boy oh boy do I have *opinions* on it!
First off, I really liked the PoV characters in the first novel. The Ryld-Pharaun detective stuff was great, and both characters were very well rounded while still having character arcs in which we saw the characters develop. I think it speaks to how well written those two were in the first book that when the inevitable betrayal came, it still felt like a gut punch. Quenthel was pretty still pretty one-dimensional in the first book, but I came to appreciate her over the course of the book as she fended off each new assassination attempt with quick-thinking, determination, skill, and desperation. I actually found myself looking forward to how she'd fend off whatever demon Gromph sent her way next, and was looking forward to where they'd take the character in the following books. I felt that the city of Menzoberranzean itself was really exceptionally well realized on the pages in the book-all the major areas of the city were visited, and a lot of the social strata that generally gets glossed over with the typical focus on the noble families was highlighted in a way that really brought the city to life and fit into the book's overarching theme of social unrest and revolution in the city. I really liked this book. Probably my favorite Drow-centered book to date, actually.
But unfortunately none of the other five books ever hit the high notes of Dissolution, at least for me. Pharaun quickly settled into a routine of endlessly antagonizing Quenthel with sarcasm, which was funny for a bit, but ran out its charm *very* quickly for me. I remember the Alu-fiend stuff being really bad. Ryld seemed to blend into the background pretty quickly until the Halisstra romance plot took off-I think that between Valas as the 'clever' fighter and Jeggred as the 'muscle' he didn't really have much of a niche in the party-it didn't help that the authors seemingly didn't know where to take the animosity between Pharaun and Ryld and so seemingly just abandoned it....it felt like part of the story that never got the closure it needed.
As for Quenthel, she must have taken quite the blow to the head offscreen shortly after leaving Menzoberranzean, because she never really exhibited the same degree of competence or cunning as she did in that first book. Indeed, she seems to get shuffled into the background for a lot of the remaining books, doing a lot of delegating from camp or whatever Inn they happened to be staying at, or otherwise out of the action. The books seemed particularly adverse to giving her any sort of meaningful and lasting character development, and what there was very late coming and didn't have much of a payoff. When the big elephant in the room of Quenthel's death and resurrections finally came out without much fanfare several books late without any real reaction from any other characters, all I could do was shrug at that point, because it was clear that the authors really didn't have any plans for taking the character anywhere. If Halisstra wasn't in this series, Quenthel would easily have been the most disappointing character to me.
Halisstra is just a mess. It was clear that the authors wanted to create a 'good' drow that was more morally complex than Drizzt, that didn't have the privilege of being able to have their hands clean of the nasty workings of Drow society. In practice, it almost felt like two different personalities rather than one individual. Very jarring esp in the last books where she goes from cursing Eilistraee one minute for not personally intervening to protect poor Feliane from being disemboweled, to deciding not to heal Feliane (presumably with Eilistraee's clerical magic) and strangling Feliane the next and turning back to Lolth in the next breath. She came across as erratic, irrational and naive, which did not particularly endear me to her. I think the idea of her is interesting, but the execution was once more very poor.
Danifae for me was just a dud all around. She just doesn't do much for most of the series until everything just sorta falls into her lap (including apotheosis) there's a lot of internal monologue from her thinking about seducing X or Y character to manipulate them, but it's more of an informed ability, since she only really seduced Quenthel, and was never able to turn that into any sort of leverage or influence over Quenthel who never develops any sort of attachment to her...so Danifae ends up not doing a whole lot until she gets her convenient magic ring.
Hune was alright I guess. Nothing about him was really bad, he just didn't have much of a personality or character as much as fulfilling an archetype. Mostly he just seemed to exist as a handy person who always knew exactly where the party needed to go next no matter where they were.
But back on point, some things that might have saved the series for me-a single writer for consistency, instead of changing it every book, cutting out the Menzoberranzean stuff in the later books and putting them in their own series or whatever, combining, killing, or cutting some of the characters to cut down on the bloat, getting rid of all the murderhobo and filler fight scenes. Keeping the characters in fewer, more defined locations rather than hopping around between all of these disconnected places like the Anauroch dessert or the Labyrinth. Letting the characters interact nonviolently with others more frequently, involving more of the cast, and addressing character stuff that needed addressing sooner rather than saving it for the 11th hour. The general cast also could have really used more interaction with them and the Vhaeraunians-for how important they were to the plot, only Ryld and Halisstra did until the end of the last book.
And rewrite a lot of the Eillistraee stuff. Irennan is spot on. It was very heavy handed and bad. The stuff where Ryld compared Eilistraeens hunting monsters to drow nobles sawing off his parents heads was particularly just awful to read.
Finding out that the whole silence of Lolth amounted to showcasing off a rebranded Demonweb Pits was a serious letdown. Even something as simple as finding out that Lolth had been imprisoned or otherwise inconvenienced by another deity/demon/whatever like sometimes happens would have been better. And the Yorthae stuff was just silly. Both Eillistraee and Lolth got treated badly by this series, although at least in the latter case, I guess it might have been unintentional that it came out so badly?
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Edited by - TKU on 24 Jan 2021 08:22:27 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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canupoa
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 16:28:49
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Thanks for the reply Irennan. My knowledge of lore is very limited so I'm always critical about books teaching the lore involved to the reader. I'm quite disappointed to hear that what I saw as missteps were actually targeted. |
Edited by - canupoa on 26 Jan 2021 16:29:20 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 22:12:29
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The novels can be good for lore (they are canonical, for the most part, though don't rely on Salvatore, as he does his own thing), but things can be inaccurate at times, and in the case of WotSQ, it was targeted. If you want more accuracy, check out Starlight and Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2021 : 05:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The novels can be good for lore (they are canonical, for the most part, though don't rely on Salvatore, as he does his own thing), but things can be inaccurate at times, and in the case of WotSQ, it was targeted. If you want more accuracy, check out Starlight and Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham.
I liked Liriel's character arc better than that of any other drow character. You get to see everything that shaped her, and why she turned out differently. It's a lot more believable, to me, than a character that somehow spontaneously develops a moral code that's exactly the opposite of everything he's ever experienced or been taught. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2021 : 13:49:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I liked Liriel's character arc better than that of any other drow character. You get to see everything that shaped her, and why she turned out differently. It's a lot more believable, to me, than a character that somehow spontaneously develops a moral code that's exactly the opposite of everything he's ever experienced or been taught.
Definitely agree there. Even long after having turned away from Lolth, and embraced gods like Eilistraee and Mystra, her distrustful and cautious drow instincts and attitudes keep kicking in from time to time. I think she is as well the best written good-aligned drow I've seen in FR literature. She has a fiery, fun, mischievous yet good-natured spirit, and she is not a brooding moral crusader like Drizzt. It's a real shame Elaine Cunningham didn't get to make more more write more adventures about her. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2021 : 17:23:35
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Yeah, Liriel is a lot more compelling than Drizzt, who has turned into something that's closer to a bunch of traits that RAS considers moral virtues put on a stick, than an actual character.
I've seen many people saying that Liriel is a Mary-Sue, and while I can see why they would say that (she's skilled in basically everything), that's certainly not what makes a character a Mary-Sue (in fact, incompetent characters can be Mary Sues, and the origina Mary Sue was incompetent). I won't go more in-depth, because discussing this would require writing more stuff than I'm willing to do now (if someone wants to hear about this take, though, I'll answer later). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2021 17:24:15 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2021 : 18:17:42
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| I'm almost done with the first book in that series, and I really enjoy Liriel, but at the same time, she seems really insulated mentally and socially from the society in which she was raised in a way that sometimes strained my credulity. Not to the degree of Drizzt mind you, but it stood out to me nonetheless the degree to which things seemed to bend to accommodate her unique personality and actions. I did just finish WoTSQ, and in that a bunch of noble-born novices are forced to cut off their own fingers for trying to sneak out of Arach Tinilith, something that Liriel was doing constantly, even for multiple days in a row at the end! Granted, the circumstances were different and Quenthel was obviously a much harsher Mistress than her sister Sos'Umptu (who in everything I have read with her so far seems to be pretty consistently the 'mildest' of the Baenre sisters) but still. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2021 : 18:32:29
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To me, that opens a different can of worms: all Lolthite drow should be detached from their society in a way (though they will hardly do so in the moral sense, more in the "wow, this life is utter crap" way, like Liriel does), and A LOT of splits and changes should have happened in over 12k year. That's because Lolthite society is incredibly stupid, is a failing model that only continues existing as is because of author bias, and is a form of non-narrative. The lack of change, even just significant disillusion widespread among the Lolthite drow, over 12k years of absolute misery and defeats, goes against one of the pillars of narrative: exploring the consequences of actions, conditions, and false truths, because the Lolthite drow want to be one of the most Stupid Evil (tm) societies in fantasy, without any of the consequences. It's as if the drow lack any drive to improve their condition.
And no "but they can die if they change!" or "but muh theocracy!!" can justify this (especially because those have never been enough of a deterrent for splits and revolutions on the long run IRL), and even more importantly, no excuse of that kind would change the fact that Lolthite society is non-narrative and bad worldbuilding (having tons of details doesn't make something good). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2021 18:41:34 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2021 : 19:40:45
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I recall in the first Liriel book (that I'm still reading, although almost done) Liriel specifically mentions that the clergy specifically is treated in a way to isolate them from anyone who they might find emotional support from besides Lolth herself, so if a priestess starts becoming too fond of another, she'll be commanded to kill them, possibly by direct orders from Lolth herself. Obviously not healthy, but an example of how Lolth has designed Drow society in a great many ways to be dependent on her in a way to minimize people being willing to look elsewhere. As for consequences, I think the existence of the other members of the Dark Seldarine and their struggles against her covers the inherently unstable nature of Lolth's rule from a setting perspective. Obviously the church of Lolth is a prime target for courageous player characters to try and take down or weaken, but as an overall setting narrative arc, I don't think I could get on board with taking her down. Drow work much better with her on the table as an antagonist, and while you could replace her with Kiaransalee or Vhaeraun, I don't think they'd have the same weight behind them without significantly more development.
Personally, I think developing some of the other Drow cities to see how society is different in each of them from, say Menzoberranzean, which is noteworthy in-universe for being particularly....devout. It would have been a nice treat-seeing Guallidurth with its 'each one of its hundreds of houses worships Lolth in a different way' or some of the cities that openly worshipped multiple members of the Dark Seldarine. It's pointed out in a bunch of the material that Lolth is a chaotic goddess and she's (supposedly) intelligent and a fan of big, complicated plots, so showing her willing to adapt to different situations and show some moderation at least situationally.
But in regards to Liriel, for an (extremely) high-born female who was extremely socially active, fostered in another noble house who had a foot in the two most competitive organizations of society, wizardry and the clergy, she seemed a tad too remarkably insulated at time from the usual consequences her position and condition would come with. There were times where her openly carefree and uninhibited good-naturedness just seemed out of place-not to say I didn't like her personality or anything, though. Just the juxtoposition seemed very stark and unusual.
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Character Study: Ryld Argith & Pharaun Mizrym
