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Sir Vengeance
Acolyte
42 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 14:12:47
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Greetings everyone, this is my second topic, and I had been wondering about the demipowers and demigods. Are they really full-fledged deities and really a deity? It seems to me that they are just half deity and half mortal or something else. But still, if they are half deity and half mortal or something else, how is it that they are granted positions of power in the Pantheon by Ao, why didn't Ao made them full time deities or create deities to assume the portfolios these current demipowers and demigods are occupying. It seems all strange to me, any comments? Your replies are highly appreciated as I try to sort out this confusion. Thanks.
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Vengeance is justified on righteous grounds, for righteous vengeance cannot be denied by anybody. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 17:10:41
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"Demipower" is another way to say "demigod". And it's not that they are half-deity, half-something else, it's just the level of power they have. Greater gods are more powerful than lesser gods, who are more powerful than demigods.
It's more a rating system than anything else. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 17:50:33
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| Plus some demipowers can't be stronger deities because thier area of influence is connected to other deities, who keep the demipowers from gaining in strength. For example: The Red Knight and Tempus. He keeps her from gaining power. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 23:44:39
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So it appears that demigods are the lowest ranking in the Pantheon heirachy.
But strange that some of the demipowers portfolio that are not connected with any of the full time deities portfolios such as Orcus portfolio as Lord of the Undead, why isn't such demipowers granted a acescension in the ranks to a lesser power? I am sure it is not based on whether they are mortals or demons once before. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
So it appears that demigods are the lowest ranking in the Pantheon heirachy.
But strange that some of the demipowers portfolio that are not connected with any of the full time deities portfolios such as Orcus portfolio as Lord of the Undead, why isn't such demipowers granted a acescension in the ranks to a lesser power? I am sure it is not based on whether they are mortals or demons once before.
Orcus was a lesser deity because he wasn't part of the Faerun pantheon, he was a demon prince who became a deity, and thus he wasn't under the sway of the other deities of undead.
But some of the demipowers, don't always make sense why they are demipowers. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sir Vengeance
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:30:15
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| Pardon me, by the way, I heard that Kiaransalee is also the drow goddess of the undead and vengeance, so far has Orcus and Kiaransalee fought over who should dominate the portfolio as the only Lord/Lady of the Undead? |
Vengeance is justified on righteous grounds, for righteous vengeance cannot be denied by anybody. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:41:58
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Recent rumor has that Orcus is dead, but some people (using term lossely) still worshop him).
"Kiaransalee
Titles: The Lady of the Dead, the Revenancer, the Vengeful Banshee
Status: Drow Demigod
Gender: Female
Symbol: Female drow hand wearing silver rings
Home Plane: Demonweb Pits
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Portfolio: Undead, vengeance
Worshipers: Drow, necromancers, undead
Cleric Alignments: CE, CN, NE
Domains: Chaos, Drow, Evil, Retribution, Undeath
Favored Weapon: “Cold Heart” (dagger)
Relationships: rebellious vassal of Lolth
Allies: Hoar, Velsharoon, Malar, Vhaeraun
Enemies: Deep Duerra, Dumathoin, Eilistraee, Kelemvor, Laduguer, Jergal " |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:42:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Vengeance
Pardon me, by the way, I heard that Kiaransalee is also the drow goddess of the undead and vengeance, so far has Orcus and Kiaransalee fought over who should dominate the portfolio as the only Lord/Lady of the Undead?
Yes these two have faught each other. At one point she managed to kick him out of his realm in the Abyss but he has since reclaimed it and now she resides elsewhere. Where that is, depends on which cosmology you are using. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Recent rumor has that Orcus is dead, but some people (using term lossely) still worshop him).
Er? No, he's been alive since late 2e. He returned in the Great Modron March and Dead Gods for Planescape. This material has also been carried over in the Book of Vile Darkness and Faiths & Pantheons and other 3/3.5e generic and FR lore. So Orcus is alive. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:46:21
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quote:
he has since reclaimed it and now she resides elsewhere.
So much for rumors, there again it appears hard to keep an evil deity dead these days. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Sir Vengeance
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:55:24
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| Will Orcus and that drow goddess of the dead fight again for the undead portfolio? Curious, that even a goddess could not defeat a demipower. |
Vengeance is justified on righteous grounds, for righteous vengeance cannot be denied by anybody. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 01:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Vengeance
Will Orcus and that drow goddess of the dead fight again for the undead portfolio? Curious, that even a goddess could not defeat a demipower.
They might. But in the current lore, Orcus isn't a deity at all. He is just a strong demon prince. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 01:40:55
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In 3E Gods are ranked on a power scale from 1 to 20 called Divine Rank. The higher a god's divine rank the more power and (theoreticallY) more worshippers he has.
Gods are additionally broken down into 4 general power levels. Demigods have divine ranks from 1-5. Lesser gods have are DvR 6-10. Intermediate gods range from DvR 11-15. And Greater gods rank from 16-20.
Additionally, a being can have a divine rank zero, which is not the same as having no rank at all. A divine rank zero creature is sometimes called a quasi-deity or a hero-god and while not really a deity, has certain benefits and privileges from the status.
Entities in excess of 20 divine ranks count as overgods, they don't require worshippers and they have mysterious and unquantified powers that may include an ability something like "create world" or "create universe." Overgods are kind of like Epic Level gods.
In 2E gods were not really statted beyond their avatars which were generally considered just to be a physical manifestation of a higher, inscrutable godhead.
In 3E they created rules to stat gods. These rules are found in the sourcebook Deities & Demigods and briefly recapped in Faiths & Pantheons. However, while serviceable, both designers and players have received these rules somewhat ambivalently. In more recent books like Complete Divine and Lords of Madness, the designers seem to be backing off from precisely statting gods, and leaving a lot of their powers and abilities fairly vague and to the imaginations of DM's. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 02:22:51
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| Yes, Orcus is back to being a Demon Prince, and don't forget you know have Velsharoon in the mix for the portfolio of undead as well, though his forte is technically necromancy. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 03:52:16
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| I thought that demons or beings residing in the Nine Hells or the Abyss can't become deities anymore. This was said in PGtF. Also, wasn't this the reason why there was Lolth's silence and the big deal about her moving the Demonwebs? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 03:54:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yes, Orcus is back to being a Demon Prince, and don't forget you know have Velsharoon in the mix for the portfolio of undead as well, though his forte is technically necromancy.
It seems that the portfolio of controlling the undead is very hotly contested for. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 03:56:55
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As an example, its kind of funny that in 2e Helm's AVATAR, a fragment of his power, was a Fighter 35/Cleric 23, while in 3e his true form is Fighter 20/Ranger 10/Cleric 10 . . .
Somehow I liked the older stats, lol. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 04:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
As an example, its kind of funny that in 2e Helm's AVATAR, a fragment of his power, was a Fighter 35/Cleric 23, while in 3e his true form is Fighter 20/Ranger 10/Cleric 10 . . .
Somehow I liked the older stats, lol.
Part of the failing of F&P is that it made deities into little more than high-level monsters. If I was to allow combat between an avatar and PCs (I wouldn't, of course, I'm speaking hypothetically), I'd go with the stats from the 2E godbooks -- those avatars could eat any adventurers for lunch, which I think is proper. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 04:16:48
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I'm actually glad that 3E has clarified the mechanics and ways and wherefores of demons and devils being worshipped and granting spells. It has very much cleared the boards and now if you want to get spells from an archdevil or demon prince, then you have to take a feat to do so - mind you, I think that without some sort of boon or benefit this is a bit of a sacrifice (although taking the feat does provide benefits of its own, of course). I'd implement a sort of house rule that given the likely fact that archdevils and demon princes don't have as many worshippers and divine demands upon them as a 'regular' deity, that they can on occasion receive bonus or heightened spells from their evil patron.
This fits in with Ed's casual comments re religion and praying for spells which ties in clerics much closer with their deities. As such, if they've been a good worshipper their spells may strike tenfold, but if they've been bad, well .... they might just get a stack of atonement spells granted to them - no matter what they are praying for.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 04:17:04
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And I have Wooly to thank for me tracking down Faith and Avatars due to his constant praise of the source material within. Unfortunately it was published during the Dark Time (while I was with my ex wife, lol) and as such I never purchased it.
Thanks for the recommendation Wooly. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 04:20:01
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I like a lot of the new god powers/clarifications of what they can do/ranks, what have you, but I just think that many of the gods are WAY underpowered. Blame it in part on the fact that the gods seemed to be stated in such a way that if you never got the Epic Level Handbook you could still run them.
Now combining them with the Epic Level rules, the new 3e deity abilities, and making them more like their avatars from Faiths and Avatars . . . that makes them more fearsome . . . |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 04:26:53
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FWIW there is also a Divine rank of 0.
Certainly a demipower of some kind.
It appears that AO requires devotion for any deity to advance in power, How this occurs of course falls under the mysteries of the god. Sages clearly look at the number of followers and some have noted that other factors apply (perhaps degree of devotion, perhaps allies, perhaps some scheme that mere mortals can never understand) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 19 Jul 2005 13:18:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 05:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And I have Wooly to thank for me tracking down Faith and Avatars due to his constant praise of the source material within. Unfortunately it was published during the Dark Time (while I was with my ex wife, lol) and as such I never purchased it.
Thanks for the recommendation Wooly.
Glad to help! 
Those three deity books are some of the best Realms resources we've ever had. I shall happily sing their praises to one and all!  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 15:32:58
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| This brings up a question, Tchazzar is worshipped as a god in the Chessenta area, and it is my understanding that his clerics have access to spells (although I've not seen it in print) even though Tchazzar is really a red dragon that is probably still alive in Faerun today. Let me know if I'm way off base here, but that is my understanding. If this is correct, would this be similar to the archdevils and demon princes, or would he have an actual divine rank of 0 or possibly 1? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 17:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
This brings up a question, Tchazzar is worshipped as a god in the Chessenta area, and it is my understanding that his clerics have access to spells (although I've not seen it in print) even though Tchazzar is really a red dragon that is probably still alive in Faerun today. Let me know if I'm way off base here, but that is my understanding. If this is correct, would this be similar to the archdevils and demon princes, or would he have an actual divine rank of 0 or possibly 1?
Tiamat possessed him, so she grants spells in his name.
And the problem with stating some of the deities, is that some of the stats conflict as usual. In the old rules ALL deities could form avatars, now if they don't have the SDA, they can't. This screws with the lore because Azuth has formed avatars, and now he can't. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Jul 2005 17:03:54 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 18:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Tiamat possessed him, so she grants spells in his name.
That explains it, thanks Kuje. BTW, where did you find this? We are currently campaigning in Chessenta and my attempts to find more info on Tchazzar have been mostly futile.
Powers & Pantheons. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Demipowers and Demigods
