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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 08:17:08
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I almost voted for him, but IMO, Telamont Tanthul surpassed him in many ways. Age, achievements, domain, spellcraft...
[If Smyther is still around, I hope he could change the spelling of Telemont to Telamont. ] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 27 Oct 2012 08:28:26 |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 09:00:28
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| I chose other, mainly because I believe Irenicus and Bhodi were very worthy villains. Irenicus and his quest for power and revenge, an elf straying so far from his roots. His sister seeking out vampires to prolong her life that was stolen with her elven heritage. Same as her brother. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 04:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So little love for Iakhovas? It's not that easy to rally the denizens of the seas and shake almost the entire Sword Coast. If only I could vote for more than once...
He was a great villain, but he went out like a chump. I
think that some people don't fondly remember the Threat of the Sea books, and that causes him to get left out of these conversations.
My first inclination would be to choose Vhostym the Sojourner from the Erevis Cale books. However, Manshoon has always had a special place in my heart. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1879 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 15:50:31
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| Malkizid...he's been instrumental in the decline of the elves without ever being caught at it. That makes him a villain supreme. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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fylth
Acolyte
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 07:01:01
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| I would have to go with Szass Tam. The guy completely lost it in his bid for power. For someone willing to 'undo' the worlds and recreate them in his own liking, you have to be a truly evil villain. It kind of reminds me of Griffith from Berserk. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 12:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by fylth
I would have to go with Szass Tam. The guy completely lost it in his bid for power. For someone willing to 'undo' the worlds and recreate them in his own liking, you have to be a truly evil villain. It kind of reminds me of Griffith from Berserk.
While I do like him, especially how Richard portrayed him in the Haunted Lands, I must say he's still relatively far behind the caliber of Larloch and the Sojourner. Note also that his Ritual of Unmaking didn't actually work. And while it would have probably nuked a big chunk of Faerun, there's no guarantee that it would indeed work, or that its caster would survive the effects of such immensely powerful ritual. A backlash might even render Szass Tam irreversibly mad as the ritual's original creator, Fastrin. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 02:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by fylth
I would have to go with Szass Tam. The guy completely lost it in his bid for power. For someone willing to 'undo' the worlds and recreate them in his own liking, you have to be a truly evil villain. It kind of reminds me of Griffith from Berserk.
While I do like him, especially how Richard portrayed him in the Haunted Lands, I must say he's still relatively far behind the caliber of Larloch and the Sojourner. Note also that his Ritual of Unmaking didn't actually work. And while it would have probably nuked a big chunk of Faerun, there's no guarantee that it would indeed work, or that its caster would survive the effects of such immensely powerful ritual. A backlash might even render Szass Tam irreversibly mad as the ritual's original creator, Fastrin.
Yeah, but what you mentioned has nothing to do with Tam being below Larloch. The Ritual of Unmaking is one of those things that sounds too good to be true. I sorely doubt that Larloch could complete it either.
Personally, I think that taking over Thay alone puts Tam in the conversation for the most successful villain. Speaking of which, I would have preferred that the Eminence of Araunt remain to serve as a check to Thayan interests.
#1 is probably Telamont though. Granted, his son being Shar's chosen advanced his empire a great deal. But hey, he worked with what he had until he made his kingdom arguably the most powerful in Faerun. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:03:41
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| I voted for Telamont, although my vote almost went to Szass Tam. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 19:24:03
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| No contest, Shar, she's a greater Goddess, so she has the power. Her actions lead to the rise of the Shade Empire and its horrors, she tried to destroy the whole world, she's corrupted and killed verious Gods, not the least of which was helping in the Murder of Mystria which lead to the devistation and choas of the Spellplague, she tried to temp Elminister, and this is just the tip of the Iceberg for Shar's evils. I mean the greatest and biggest evil divine domain, the Towers of Night were created by her, the Towers of Night are bigger then the hells and the hells are as big as Toril, but with layers, so that should give you an idea of how big that plane of darkness and horrors really is. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 19:40:13
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Telmont is no more a villian then Obama or George W. Bush. Everything Telmont does is for his people. Undead armies vs. Drone Strikes that kill civilians more often then not. Shadow Magic vs. Cluster bombs.
Telmont is just trying to enact Shade's manifest destiny. He has scarificed much for his people. He worked hard to save as many of his people as possible.
Just some perpective. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 18:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Telmont is no more a villian then Obama or George W. Bush. Everything Telmont does is for his people. Undead armies vs. Drone Strikes that kill civilians more often then not. Shadow Magic vs. Cluster bombs.
Telmont is just trying to enact Shade's manifest destiny. He has scarificed much for his people. He worked hard to save as many of his people as possible.
Just some perpective.
As all things are, villainy is a relative term. Telamont is indeed a hero in the eyes of his sons and the whole of reborn Netheril. After all, with his leadership, they survived the Fall while many of their fellows died.
Consider, however, that while Telamont's intention can be justified by the concept of birthright (they, as part of pre-Fall Netheril, used to inhabit most of the Sword Coast, and therefore, they're just reclaiming what's [arguably] rightfully theirs), manipulating and killing thousands of people, even the innocent, just to get what they want is hardly "heroic." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 20:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Telmont is no more a villian then Obama or George W. Bush. Everything Telmont does is for his people. Undead armies vs. Drone Strikes that kill civilians more often then not. Shadow Magic vs. Cluster bombs.
Telmont is just trying to enact Shade's manifest destiny. He has scarificed much for his people. He worked hard to save as many of his people as possible.
Just some perpective.
Real world politics aside, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. Telamont is launching a war of aggression against Cormyr and the Dalelands, neither of which had any intention of fighting the Shadovar. Telamont also conqered Sembia, which never showed any inclination of wanting war with Shade.
Telamont became a hero to his people by protecting them from the horrors of the Shadowfell for centuries. His wars with the malaugrym and the phaerimm were just wars, because he was protecting his city. Even when Shade first returned to Faerun, you could argue that the battles with Evereska and Cormyr were just the result of a misunderstanding (possibly, because I remember very little from the ROTA series).
With his recent exploits though, Telamont is absolutely a villain. He's grabbing power for its own sake, and destroying the lives of others to do so. That's never ok. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 22:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
With his recent exploits though, Telamont is absolutely a villain. He's grabbing power for its own sake, and destroying the lives of others to do so. That's never ok.
As far as I can see, it is ok in RW.
I too see him as someone who tries to improve his nation, even if it means bad things for its neighbours. It is villainous, but at least it brings to the table a motivation that is more compelling than ''mwahaha, I'm ebil and want to be powerful and rich!!!'', which too many villains use to explain their actions (even tho according to what you say about his recent activities, this may no longer be the case). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Jan 2014 22:33:07 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 01:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
With his recent exploits though, Telamont is absolutely a villain. He's grabbing power for its own sake, and destroying the lives of others to do so. That's never ok.
As far as I can see, it is ok in RW.
I too see him as someone who tries to improve his nation, even if it means bad things for its neighbours. It is villainous, but at least it brings to the table a motivation that is more compelling than ''mwahaha, I'm ebil and want to be powerful and rich!!!'', which too many villains use to explain their actions (even tho according to what you say about his recent activities, this may no longer be the case).
Not sure if you've read the Twilight War series by Paul Kemp, but Telamont's motivations are addressed. One of his sons asks him if he's comfortable having sacrificed everything (including his wife, whom he loved dearly) for "empire". Telamont's response was "What else is there?"
As with most dictators, Telamont has done an excellent job of making people believe that he's killing and plundering to further the cause of all the "little people" in his kingdom. But that's BS. This is about Telamont getting what he wants, and nothing else. Even his sons are treated brutally when they are not successful in carrying out his wishes.
Since we're using real world examples, Telamont is like the mafia. I've heard many people talk very negatively about today's criminal underworld. They will lament that the street gangs and drug cartels who rule today don't have the same "code of honor" that the mafia once did.
They get sucked into the atmosphere of films like "The Godfather", and they see the mafia in a romanticized light (this is also done with pirates and Wild West outlaws). In reality, these guys were scumbags, just like today's street thugs. But they wore suits, and many of them spoke intelligently and showed signs of cultural sophistication. People get deceived by this, as if killers who wear Armani suits and attend the opera are any more worthy of admiration than killers who listen to Lil Wayne and sag their pants.
In FR's fictional world, guys like Drasek Riven or Artemis Entreri would be treated like common criminals by society's elite. Someone with Telamont's wealth, education, and refinement would be treated as a social equal by the elite. But they are really all the same: murderers and thieves with some degree of a personal moral code. Telamont just has more style about his villainy (which is why I'm rooting for him in the war with Cormyr and the Dales). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 02:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Not sure if you've read the Twilight War series by Paul Kemp, but Telamont's motivations are addressed. One of his sons asks him if he's comfortable having sacrificed everything (including his wife, whom he loved dearly) for "empire". Telamont's response was "What else is there?"
As with most dictators, Telamont has done an excellent job of making people believe that he's killing and plundering to further the cause of all the "little people" in his kingdom. But that's BS. This is about Telamont getting what he wants, and nothing else. Even his sons are treated brutally when they are not successful in carrying out his wishes.
I haven't read the Godborn yet, so I didn't know about that. I've always pictured Telamont a little more idealistic: not a good guy, ofc, but someone whose reasons were not simply ''I must rule the most powerful nation evah. Why? Because power''. Meh... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Jan 2014 02:01:29 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 05:27:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Not sure if you've read the Twilight War series by Paul Kemp, but Telamont's motivations are addressed. One of his sons asks him if he's comfortable having sacrificed everything (including his wife, whom he loved dearly) for "empire". Telamont's response was "What else is there?"
As with most dictators, Telamont has done an excellent job of making people believe that he's killing and plundering to further the cause of all the "little people" in his kingdom. But that's BS. This is about Telamont getting what he wants, and nothing else. Even his sons are treated brutally when they are not successful in carrying out his wishes.
I haven't read the Godborn yet, so I didn't know about that. I've always pictured Telamont a little more idealistic: not a good guy, ofc, but someone whose reasons were not simply ''I must rule the most powerful nation evah. Why? Because power''. Meh...
I beg you to read the Godborn! Its excellent. Really, all the Sundering novels so far have been top notch. I think WOTC is really bringing its A game for 5e. Kemp doesn't make extensive use of Telamont, but he gives him depth. So while Telamont is a power hungry archwizard, he's not at all like Szass Tam or Manshoon. He's a three dimensional villain, for sure. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 10:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I beg you to read the Godborn! Its excellent. Really, all the Sundering novels so far have been top notch. I think WOTC is really bringing its A game for 5e. Kemp doesn't make extensive use of Telamont, but he gives him depth. So while Telamont is a power hungry archwizard, he's not at all like Szass Tam or Manshoon. He's a three dimensional villain, for sure.
I will read it, I've always liked Mask and I'm quite fond of returned Netheril (even tho their uber-ness is not that appealing, IMO). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Owesstaer
Acolyte
Luxembourg
30 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 16:19:28
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Cyric! I do not think there is anyone as powerhungry and ruthless as him. The creation of the Cyrinishad tops it all.
Elaith on the other hand I do not consider a villain. An anti-hero rather |
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 19:20:31
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| Iakhovas or Szass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36865 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 22:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Owesstaer
Elaith on the other hand I do not consider a villain. An anti-hero rather
He's had people killed to keep them quiet, and in one of the books, deliberately murdered someone when the guy made the mistake of saying he couldn't believe the Serpent was letting him live... Elaith has tempered his evil somewhat, I think, but I'd not go as far as calling him an anti-hero. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 01:29:02
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Elaith is a villain, plain and simple. He is a crime lord who pursues his own desires and interests in direct opposition to anyone and everyone.
The only reasons it is easy to sometimes forget this is that 1) he considers elven interests his interests, and in turn takes up causes that seem moral for questionable reasons, and 2) he had a close personal relationship with the royal family of Evermeet and feels a direct connection to Arilyn, and so maneuvers to protect her interests as well. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 01:31:21
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Karsus was definitely not a villain - he over-reached in his pursuit of power, but before that he was a pretty stand up, if very haughty, guy.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 01:43:27
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I think the only real choice, if we are talking about the fiction side of the Forgotten Realms, among those offered is Manshoon. The biggest reason is he continually goes up against the most powerful characters in the Realms and is still swinging. More importantly, he has been featured in MANY novels and just as many RPG products. Manshoon is not going anywhere and I will bet that he is featured in more novels yet to come. I can't say as much for anyone else.
Larloch would be my #2 only because he has been a constant boogeyman from the very beginning and has made an appearance or two in fiction.
Kymil would be #3 because he had good long term evil and (accidentally) made some great evil progress with Zoar's death and the attack on Evermeet.
Szass Tam has the lack of fortune to be featured in one of series that I thought was terrible, and seems to be to have been written to achieve the goal of its conclusion rather than have a story that traveled its own path to a conclusion that made good sense. I really liked the Szass Tam presented in Spellbound. His fiction self was a let down of the countless RSEs era.
Sammaster was cool, but a briefly "resurrected" bad guy who now seems to be dead again.
The Gods / Devils are all out for me. Supernatural powers are not villains in my mind.
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 02:52:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Szass Tam has the lack of fortune to be featured in one of series that I thought was terrible, and seems to be to have been written to achieve the goal of its conclusion rather than have a story that traveled its own path to a conclusion that made good sense. I really liked the Szass Tam presented in Spellbound. His fiction self was a let down of the countless RSEs era.
I really liked Szass Tam in Red Magic. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 07:05:23
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| I thought he was heavy fisted even way back then with all his 'Harpers are stupid because they have no powerful leader but I still collect their badges' stuff. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 16:32:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Sunderstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Szass Tam has the lack of fortune to be featured in one of series that I thought was terrible, and seems to be to have been written to achieve the goal of its conclusion rather than have a story that traveled its own path to a conclusion that made good sense. I really liked the Szass Tam presented in Spellbound. His fiction self was a let down of the countless RSEs era.
I really liked Szass Tam in Red Magic.
Tam is amazing. I've never read Red Magic, but I will look for it. My first exposure to him was in The Crimson Gold. He was awesome then, and I loved that Kemp later used the Uskevren family in his Twilight War novels. For me, Tam is easily one of the most well written, competent, and likable FR villains. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 17:05:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Elaith is a villain, plain and simple. He is a crime lord who pursues his own desires and interests in direct opposition to anyone and everyone.
The only reasons it is easy to sometimes forget this is that 1) he considers elven interests his interests, and in turn takes up causes that seem moral for questionable reasons, and 2) he had a close personal relationship with the royal family of Evermeet and feels a direct connection to Arilyn, and so maneuvers to protect her interests as well.
Excellent point. You and Wooly really hit on something important. Fans will often complain about the generic good vs. evil setup, with no nuance or "shades of gray". We hear lots of whining about the chaotic evil, Lolth type psychos who just do evil for its own sake. (Ironically, everyone I know who complains about these characters loves the Joker.)
But modern authors are boxed in to a certain extent. We've all heard the stories of writers who were horrified at their work being grossly misinterpreted, and even used to justify actions they morally oppose. So I think authors sometimes go over the top in making villains evil just to be clear. Why, you ask?
Because modern readers are obsessed with antiheros. They look for reasons to like and sympathize with edgy characters, no matter how awful they are. If writers show any nuance to an evil character, fans jump on that to prove he/she isn't evil.
Are you an assassin who won't kill children? You're clearly a good guy who fell into a bad profession. Are you a slave trader with a soft spot for dogs? Same thing. Are you a ruthless tyrant who's a decent father? You're really a good guy. Right up until the last Game of Thrones finale, you had plenty people arguing that the almost cartoonishly over the top evil Queen Cersei was morally gray because she loved her children. You don't get moral brownie points for loving your own kids!!
For many fans, the only type of character they will accept as evil is foaming at the mouth, chaotic evil, destroy the whole world kind of villain. Neutral evil and Lawful evil aren't even recognized as evil most of the time, so writers wanting to establish a truly villainous character must make him Chaotic evil. And even then, a convincing sob story will have people putting him in the morally gray camp again.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 18:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the only real choice, if we are talking about the fiction side of the Forgotten Realms, among those offered is Manshoon. The biggest reason is he continually goes up against the most powerful characters in the Realms and is still swinging. More importantly, he has been featured in MANY novels and just as many RPG products. Manshoon is not going anywhere and I will bet that he is featured in more novels yet to come. I can't say as much for anyone else.
Larloch would be my #2 only because he has been a constant boogeyman from the very beginning and has made an appearance or two in fiction.
Kymil would be #3 because he had good long term evil and (accidentally) made some great evil progress with Zoar's death and the attack on Evermeet.
Szass Tam has the lack of fortune to be featured in one of series that I thought was terrible, and seems to be to have been written to achieve the goal of its conclusion rather than have a story that traveled its own path to a conclusion that made good sense. I really liked the Szass Tam presented in Spellbound. His fiction self was a let down of the countless RSEs era.
Sammaster was cool, but a briefly "resurrected" bad guy who now seems to be dead again.
The Gods / Devils are all out for me. Supernatural powers are not villains in my mind.
The problem with Manshoon is that he's become like Apocalypse (the comic book X Men villain). He's been used so many times as a punching bag that he's lost his menacing aura. If you've ever watched pro wrestling, you know that the top guys aren't scripted to lose very often. Why? Because while a guy like the Undertaker may be huge and scary looking, his whole gimmick loses any edge if he loses every other match.
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Sunderstone
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 18:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the only real choice, if we are talking about the fiction side of the Forgotten Realms, among those offered is Manshoon. The biggest reason is he continually goes up against the most powerful characters in the Realms and is still swinging. More importantly, he has been featured in MANY novels and just as many RPG products. Manshoon is not going anywhere and I will bet that he is featured in more novels yet to come. I can't say as much for anyone else.
Larloch would be my #2 only because he has been a constant boogeyman from the very beginning and has made an appearance or two in fiction.
Kymil would be #3 because he had good long term evil and (accidentally) made some great evil progress with Zoar's death and the attack on Evermeet.
Szass Tam has the lack of fortune to be featured in one of series that I thought was terrible, and seems to be to have been written to achieve the goal of its conclusion rather than have a story that traveled its own path to a conclusion that made good sense. I really liked the Szass Tam presented in Spellbound. His fiction self was a let down of the countless RSEs era.
Sammaster was cool, but a briefly "resurrected" bad guy who now seems to be dead again.
The Gods / Devils are all out for me. Supernatural powers are not villains in my mind.
The problem with Manshoon is that he's become like Apocalypse (the comic book X Men villain). He's been used so many times as a punching bag that he's lost his menacing aura. If you've ever watched pro wrestling, you know that the top guys aren't scripted to lose very often. Why? Because while a guy like the Undertaker may be huge and scary looking, his whole gimmick loses any edge if he loses every other match.
I've always preferred such characters to work through proxies and have an air of not sullying their hands when there were pawns available for such work. I like them to be visible in the story but from a pulling strings standpoint and attempt to achieve their end from developing competent lackeys to pursue their ends or confound the protagonist. |
Edited by - Sunderstone on 03 Oct 2016 18:55:56 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 04:25:54
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| You should look into the Fzoul scroll Sunderstone for more on Manshoon in this regard, I'll just say that there IS another badder more secret Manshoon out there... somewhere. :) |
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Topic |
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The Greatest Villain Ever
