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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:01:42
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First, let me point out that I was considering putting this in the novels area, since much of what relates to what I am going to say about Wulfgar relates to his portrayal and the events that shape him in the novels, but since I am thinking of posting more of these character study ideas, and some may end up being about characters who have little novel lore but much written of them in sourcebooks, I decided to keep it all together.
My question to my fellow scribes in these Character Study posts is, what would you do next with the character, what were the pivotal events in their life, and what would you have done differently?
To get the ball rolling, first off, for the sake of the overall story I would have left Wulfgar dead. I feel that he became less likable in the Legacy almost as a warning that he was going to die, so the reader wouldn't feel quite so bad about it. His return definately seemed too . . . heroic and neat.
But unlike a lot of people that read the book, I loved Spine of the World. Not only did I feel like it was a very mature book for RAS to write (not in the mature content way, but in the, getting better and better as a writer mature), but it almost rewrote what we though had happened up to that point. Wulfgar's torture in the Abyss was expained far more horrifically. We got to see a member of the fellowship of the Hall without the filter of Drizzt (which is not a shot at Drizzt, but originally we saw each character as a potential main character, and now they all seem to be Drizzt sidekicks).
Wulfgar didn't save the day by destroying a BIG EVIL, he helped a young girl out of a jam and got a handle on his personal problems. I really think, being as much Bruenor's son as Beornagar's that Wulgar would indeed be very happy working a forge and providing for a family in Waterdeep for the rest of his life. I honestly could have seen him staying in Waterdeep, marrying Delly, and having a ton of kids, who of course would marvel at the dwarf and dark elf visitors that he would recieve from time to time, and then they would beg daddy for stories of his adventuring days.
I really feel that the explanation in the last few books that Wulfgar craves warfare and adventure and cannot be a homebody ring false. I think if he really is that restless, the next step would be a risk of decending back into alchoholism.
All of that said, in the long term I would like to see Wulfgar decide that he needs to find himself away from the Hall Companions and wander the North by himself, or perhaps with a new sidekick. I don't seem Wulfgar's personality as a follower, but he never really shines on his own so long as he follows Bruenor and lives with dwarves. He is just the big guy with the hammer.
Keep in mind, this isn't meant as a jab at RAS, or a statement that I could do better, just my alalysis of what I would do with a character, if I WERE a writer, or if the character was my creation in a campaign.
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 22 Jul 2005 14:44:20
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 19:25:36
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This is continuing in the thread of not jabbing at RAS ('cause I love his books!)
I would love to see a series of novels or even one novel with a series of short stories of Wulfgar on is own doing all of the things he is so capeable of. He is constantly overshadowed by the 'older and more experienced' pair of Bruenor and Drizzt.
I think he could be a powerful and very influential person in the north, but when ever he travels with the other two, he is traveling with the King of Mithril Hall and the famous Drow Ranger Drizzt Do'Urden. He is just the big guy of no consequence in the back who keeps the others alive. On his own he could enable his charisma that we saw back in the Icewind Dale trilogy when he used his charisma to mobilize the barbarians and ally them with ten towns. On his own he would be able to use that charisma and sheer physical ability to mobilize people for thier own benifit. As a solo character he is quite capeable, but to make a more entertaing novel he should probably have a supporting companion.
I agree that Wulfgar seemed to have a good time doing the smithing, and given a little time could easily settle down and be a great smith. I find it stretching things that he would be craving adventure all the time, considering his previous experiences. How many trips to the abyss does it take to make a body relize that there are other options in life?
My ever humble 2 coppers |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Dippiey
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 21:12:49
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| I think Wulfgar should form his own band of Adventurers. We saw Bruenor settle down in his title as king of Mithrill Hall. We've seen Drizzt settle into his lot in life. I believe Wulfgar's legacy could go on. I want to see him surpass Bruenor and Drizzt. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:48:57
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| I agree with the first post, I liked Spine of the World as it was a bit different and a deed accomplished such as what Wulfgar did was in soem ways maybe more heroic than battling a dragon or similar. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 01:06:29
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Yeah, I was also going to note that Wulfgar started out as essentially the main character, and slowly receeded to the back of the party. Drizzt was a great character, but I feel for Wulfgar that he just became the "tank" of the group.
Now that I think of it, I don't know that I would want Wulfgar to have his own adventuring party, but definately a sidekick. As I think back on them, some of RAS best moments are "buddy" stories. Wulfgar and Drizzt fighting giants and dragons, Bruenor and Regis bantering, Artemis and Jarlaxle, Wulfgar and Morik, . . . I would argue he is better at partners than large groups. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 00:49:59
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yeah, I was also going to note that Wulfgar started out as essentially the main character, and slowly receeded to the back of the party. Drizzt was a great character, but I feel for Wulfgar that he just became the "tank" of the group.
Now that I think of it, I don't know that I would want Wulfgar to have his own adventuring party, but definately a sidekick. As I think back on them, some of RAS best moments are "buddy" stories. Wulfgar and Drizzt fighting giants and dragons, Bruenor and Regis bantering, Artemis and Jarlaxle, Wulfgar and Morik, . . . I would argue he is better at partners than large groups.
That's a fair point. But then arguably writing with a smaller number of characters is easier as it allows fuller development of each of them. But then adventuring parties is what D&D is about at it's core and the lack of full parties is one reason among many Ed's Knights books are so anticipated. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 10:49:22
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First of all. I am a great fan of the books. Read them several times. I find them to be some of the best Fantasy books ever written. In my case ranking up besides LOTR.
First of all i think that the general handling of the Wulfgar was brilliant. His combined barbarian and dwarfen upbringing gave him a great combination of the strengths of both races. This created a character destined for greatnes and adventure... A character i came to enjoy.
But as much as it pains me to do it, i must agree to the fact that Wulfgar should have been left dead. One of the strengths of a good novel as well as a good playing party is the uncertainty about the survival of the main characters. It gives the story an edge and a taste of unpredictability. I was saddened by the "apparent death" of Wulfgar, but at the same time glad that RAS had killed a character and highlighted the mortality of the characters. That was lost in the return of Wulfgar... I had a hard time enjoying his place in the novels after his return. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 10:59:20
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About whether RAS are best at writing stories about partners or parties.
I couldent disagree more with the people who claim that RAS handles stories about two-man groups (partners) better than stories about bigger parties. I think that RAS are great at writing partners stories, but his real strength lies in his great descriptions of a big party out on adventure. Especially in his combat descriptions. He is unrivaled in the art of describing a battle... Chilling.
The above mentioned also affect Wulfgar. I dont think he at any time becomes the "tank" of the story and losing his other qualities. Yes he is the Tank. But come on... He is a huge barbarian wielding an exceptional piece of dwarfen craftmanship. But in the detailed description of his upbringing and mentality we get a general feeling and understanding of the character. With that in mind he never slides into the background. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 14:44:50
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I too feel something has lacked in Wulfgar of late. I like the rekindling of his spirit in the Hunters Blades trilogy, but would like to see the 5 friends on the road again for an acknowledged last fling.
I see a lot of commentary about Wulfgar being the "son of Bruenor", but I want to remind all, Wulfgar grew up for 15-16 years in the tribe of the Elk, and was indoctrinated as a barbarian warrior. He has overcome the shortcomings of his heritage but the positive parts remain, and shape him. He IS a warrior of the tundra, and will react so.
I would personally like to see him back in epic form, sweeping giants aside with a swing, going hand to hand with giants, ogres, and demons. I want to see again the Wulfgar who stood eternal in front of the Taros Hoop, who went hand to hand with a hydra and won, the same one who single-handedly turned a boat ninety degrees at a haul on the ropes...
I will say this. I recall reading something about "The Crystal Shard" where RAS had perhaps originally intended Wulfgar to be the main character, a spinoff of the Moonshaes-esque barbarians. I think that focus on development would be excellent, not just a rebuilding of his psyche from his torment in the Abyss, but a development from a superb warrior in the top of his form to a thinker, a cunning warrior/strategist.
RAS, if yer reading this, cheers! You've made an impact on people's lives on beyond just your books. My own son is now reading your works and sharing his thoughts, a thing which warms a heart and brings he and I together. |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 15:04:43
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I, personally, found Wulfgar kind of generic since I first read The Crystal Shard. He never really was an interesting character to me, just a big dude with a hammer who would obviously hook up with Cattie-Brie.
He got a little more interesting in the second book, though. His death didn’t have a body…so that wasn’t entirely convincing. After all, we saw what happened when we didn’t see a body with Bruenor.
After his return, I found him dull again. And while the story within itself in Spine of the World wasn’t bad at all, I really wasn’t all that interested in Wulfgar himself.
See, I would have much preferred to see that Drizz’t and co. find out that it’s Wulfgar in the abyss, and just as they are about to free him, Errtu rips Wulfgar’s spine out and starts to thrash around the dark elf for a while with it. Much more pathos.
As it stands now, if Wulfgar is never written about again, except in passing, I won’t be bothered at all.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 17:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
I will say this. I recall reading something about "The Crystal Shard" where RAS had perhaps originally intended Wulfgar to be the main character, a spinoff of the Moonshaes-esque barbarians.
RAS stated this in a long ago Dragon article; I believe it was promoting The Legacy. Wulfgar was to be the main character, and Drizzt -- a spur of the moment creation, in response to a question -- was intended to be his sidekick.
Myself, I've never found Wulfgar to be all that interesting... And I'm another who thinks his death should have been permanent. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 17:27:01
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Well, part of my one real issue with the whole thing is that there is no real progression of skills as compared to what is presented in the game books.
IE: Drizzt started out fighting Drow and Illithids, and graduated to fighting dragons and giants and devils. Now, he is ramping up to... Orcs? From a realistic standpoint, I can see some of this, but from the standpoint of a gamer and avid reader who likes to see a new challenge come up, it's kind of wierd to regress to the lesser opponents. Even en masse, how much of a real challenge would a horde of orcs BE for a high level character? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 17:56:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Well, part of my one real issue with the whole thing is that there is no real progression of skills as compared to what is presented in the game books.
IE: Drizzt started out fighting Drow and Illithids, and graduated to fighting dragons and giants and devils. Now, he is ramping up to... Orcs? From a realistic standpoint, I can see some of this, but from the standpoint of a gamer and avid reader who likes to see a new challenge come up, it's kind of wierd to regress to the lesser opponents. Even en masse, how much of a real challenge would a horde of orcs BE for a high level character?
With some competent leadership, very challenging. Sure, a character could wade thru orcs all day long, so long as he or she never faces more than a handful at a time. But when that same character is surrounded by 25 orcs, while 10 more are 20 feet away lobbing arrows at him and behind them is a pair of shamans casting spells, it becomes a whole different matter. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 19:19:35
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quote:
With some competent leadership, very challenging.
By definition, orcs are a disorganized rabble. Even in Obould's army, the outlying tribes are fractuous and scattered. There is a constant undercurrent of compensation for the fact that the army could dissolve at nearly any time if the omens and battles don't turn out right.
Even with masses though, it would be little challenge to arrange the battlefield as Drizzt does such that the odds are evened. The thing I'm pointing at is that he was doing that all along, but for the likes of Verbeeg and Ogres, not measly orcs. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 19:58:57
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| But in general... Shouldent some of the realy powerful adversaries have been saved for later? Errtu, Icingdeath and so on are exceptionally powerfull adversaries and are unrealistic (AD&D wise) to beat with the skills and equipment at hand for the heroes. In the last of the books it very fast evolves to high level super-powerplay. I think it removes some of the charm and realism apparent in the earlier books. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 20:13:49
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In general, yes... the problem I as the reader have, is trying to get everything on an even keel. Bear in mind I didn't read the books in sequence I read them as they were released. (Yeah, that long ago...) I try and follow, but I'm constantly haunted by the fact that where the Companions were previously fighting Drow, Mind Flayers, Dragons and Demons, they are now suddenly in desperate straits against... orcs?? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 02:25:59
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Part of the problem too may lie in the idea that you aren't happy with Wulfgar as a "D&D" character and his progression, as he went from fighting dragons, giants, and a demons, to being challenged with orcs.
First off, as a "D&D" character, Wulfgar has been a product of three different rule sets of the game, and went from being a 1st edition Barbarian, to a 2nd Edition Fighter with the Barbarian kit, to a 3rd Edition Barbarian, and those dragons, giants, and demons that he fought back in 1st edition went from mid level monsters to high level monstronsities, and those lowly orcs in 3.5 are far more likely to have character levels.
If a story makes sense in the context of the book, I wouldn't let Monster Manual stats get in the way of enjoying it. Thats why some of the character development ideas about Wulfgar interest me far more than how much damage he can do to a white dragon. We know in the novel he can kill a white dragon if the author wants him to.
And if you want to talk about orcs being a disorganized rabble that only poses occasional threats . . . ask the Mulhorandi . . . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 03:43:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
If a story makes sense in the context of the book, I wouldn't let Monster Manual stats get in the way of enjoying it.
This is a very important point. So long as the story makes sense, then it's all I need. |
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Dippiey
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 04:42:11
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I do agree with the partner point.
People have had the same problem with wulfgar as they have had with Drizz't. You cant just sit down and role them up. What I want to see is RAS role these characters up. Until I see his versions of them, I will not accept them as stats.
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This is my sig |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 06:29:24
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Oh, and perhaps my most insignificant addition that I would make to Wulfgar's character:
He would have to regrow the beard and keep it. Not only would it make him look more mature, but also more intimidating (not to mention I always liked it in the comics when Thor had a beard as well, and lets face it . . . who does Wulfgar look like anyway?) |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 08:01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dippiey
I think Wulfgar should form his own band of Adventurers. We saw Bruenor settle down in his title as king of Mithrill Hall. We've seen Drizzt settle into his lot in life. I believe Wulfgar's legacy could go on. I want to see him surpass Bruenor and Drizzt.
No. Wulfgar is important part of that group. He is the tank.
But I agree with Knight Errant Jr; I would have left Wulfgar dead possibly. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 14:14:36
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| Let me clarify for a moment... I don't want stats on the characters, I don't keep them in the box of what the rules say they can or can't do. However, I DO tend to like to see an escalation of challenges. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 17:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Let me clarify for a moment... I don't want stats on the characters, I don't keep them in the box of what the rules say they can or can't do. However, I DO tend to like to see an escalation of challenges.
Well, after some of the things they've fought, how could they escalate it further?
Besides, I think you're overlooking just how effective numbers can be. It doesn't matter how skilled a fighter someone is -- eventually, the sheer weight of numbers will prevail. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 17:25:18
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Yeah, not to drift too far off point, or to get too "rules lawyerish" but if Wulfgar is surrounded by orcs, not only do the one across from one another flank him, thus getting a bonus, but tons of the could "aid another" in order to help hit him.
Thats the whole reason there are flanking and aid another rules. In real life, even the best swordsman in all the realms was screwed if he was drawn into a mob. He could be wearing full plate and carrying a shield, but if twenty or so footman in no armor managed to press in close to him he was done for.
Not that I expect a fantasy novel to be ultra realistic, but you cannot ignore the sheer weight of numbers. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 17:29:47
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quote:
Besides, I think you're overlooking just how effective numbers can be. It doesn't matter how skilled a fighter someone is -- eventually, the sheer weight of numbers will prevail.
Tell that to the Spartans at Thermoplae(sp).
Personally I've been involved in reinactments where I was horridly outgunned numbers-wise and was able to still pull off victory through tactics. (In one case we met the victory condition by hiding until the time was up.)
In any event, I read a book for an interesting challenge, and while I don't always expect a ramp up in challenge or a change in power level of the campaign, I DO find it hard to swallow that these mighty heroes went from battling mighty foes then going back to the lowest, most base creature a DM would stock his dungeon with. I was really thinking of Akar Kessell's army as a good way to populate Obould's forces... a sprinkling of ogres and giantkin to bolster the lines, maybe some troll squads. (Which trolls you DO see but not until late in the 2d book.)
Anyways, I DO like Wulfgar, and would love to see more of him in his "pre-death" form. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 17:34:17
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I'm not saying numbers automatically equal victory, but there is a big difference between being outnumbered and overbeared in close quarters and having a small manuverable force that manages to outflank a larger one.
And Obould had freakin' frost giants on his side! (LOL)
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 17:37:55
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Uh, the Spartans at Thermoplyae( I looked it up  ) were outnumbered hideously and in close quarters and still held out. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 17:43:28
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I'm not refuting that it can happen. (I am remembering the story of the Sohei in Japan that held the bridge against a thousand attackers) Just pointing out that
A) as far as a novel goes, its not a little challenge to face, its a big one.
B) There are game rules to simulate this, so that even in the context of a game where someone can have 200 hit points it can be a challenge. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 18:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Uh, the Spartans at Thermoplyae( I looked it up ) were outnumbered hideously and in close quarters and still held out.
And they all died in the end. They held out, but they still fell. This proves that numbers will eventually win out.
Look, I like Drizzt. But if you drop him in the middle of 100 orcs, he's in trouble. Sure, if he can get a good defensive spot, he can hold out for a while. But if the orcs keep coming, eventually they'll simply wear him down. He can dance and whip around those scimitars real well, but what happens after he's being doing this continuously for 12 hours? What about 18 hours, or 36? If the orcs keep coming, he's going to have to retreat or fall. There's no way around that. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jul 2005 18:02:25 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 18:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Uh, the Spartans at Thermoplyae( I looked it up ) were outnumbered hideously and in close quarters and still held out.
Well, they did all die in the end (even if it was because an, I think) shepherd, showed the Persians a way around the pass in which the Spartans had taken their stand. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 18:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Uh, the Spartans at Thermoplyae( I looked it up ) were outnumbered hideously and in close quarters and still held out.
Well, they did all die in the end (even if it was because an, I think) shepherd, showed the Persians a way around the pass in which the Spartans had taken their stand.
And even if that hadn't happened, if more Persians had been available, they would have worn down the Spartans. |
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Character Study: Wulfgar (Possible Spoilers)
