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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 18:04:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Look, I like Drizzt. But if you drop him in the middle of 100 orcs, he's in trouble. Sure, if he can get a good defensive spot, he can hold out for a while. But if the orcs keep coming, eventually they'll simply wear him down. He can dance and whip around those scimitars real well, but what happens after he's being doing this continuously for 12 hours? What about 18 hours, or 36? If the orcs keep coming, he's going to have to retreat or fall. There's no way around that.
Speaking of that, was I the only one who on seeing the cover for Thousand Orcs couldn't help thinking: "So why don't they bring up their archers?" |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 18:08:05
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quote:
(I am remembering the story of the Sohei in Japan that held the bridge against a thousand attackers)
Would you happen to know where this could be found? I'd love to read that one...
I guess what I'm driving at is that the suspension of disbelief is made more difficult. My honest true reaction to the antagonist in the books was " ORCS????" In the genre they are the peasants of the monster world, the generic "fodder" for any evil army, but it's always clear that tehy would be no match for true heroes... *shrug* It's just hard to shake that impression of orcs... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 18:15:15
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The orcs and goblins did more damage to Cormyr than the Dragon did, although the blighted crops and insect swarms were all the Ghazneths fault . . .
Again, I would like to point out that the Mulhorandi would likely have a different opinion of orcish lethality.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 22:59:53
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... And regardless of how effective an orc horde can be, we've strayed from the original topic (and yes, I realize I was part of that threadjack  ). Shall we go back to discussing Wulfgar?  |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 00:09:46
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As i said earlier. Wulfgar rocks, and I think that if he is going to continue to adventure, he should have his own set of books, based around how effective he is as both a leader and as a fighter. Having a side kick of his own would be preferable as well.
Also Wulfgar is actually better suited to fighting mass combat than Drizzt is. He has the power to knock oppenents flying and creat fear in his opponents by his size and strength as well as his skill.
Drizzt might be a dark elf, but his size and strenght are not exceptional. Two things orc have a great respect for, and Wulgar has in spades.
Remember the battle for ten towns? Who truly intimidated the orcish hordes who saw him in action? Yup that would be wulfgar. Not Drizzt, not Bruenor, not any of the other heroes of ten towns. It was Wulgar who put fear into the one size too small orcish hearts.
RAS please do a series, or encourage someone you trust to do a series based on the big white guy. I and several others I know would love to see him in action as a primary, rather than secondary character. He has the brains, the strenght and the charisma to make a truly epic story. Hector, Cu-Chulainn, Heracles, Beowulf, King Arthur, Roland, Odysseus, Wulfgar. See it all fits. Wulfgar is the man, and we would truly like to see a few book based around him. We dig him man. We dig him. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 04:39:25
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I'm not saying this to be inflamatory, so don't start a "yeah me too" train here, but objectively, as far as Obould attacking Mithril Hall and organizing that attacks on Nesme through Proffit, Drizzt in the series managed to . . . distract some frost giants at Shallows and distract Obould while his treacherous shaman nearly killed him. Through the thick of the fighting, the brilliant combat engineering and heroics of rescuing the survivors of Nesme, the plans to turn aside the orcs and giants at the front gates . . . Drizzt was running errands for Inovindil. I know, he didn't know what was going on, just adding some perspective.
SPOILERS AHEAD > > >
Back to Wulfgar, does anyone else think, right or wrong, that Wulfgar perhaps should have been more upset with Catti-brie for her sword possesing his wife and leading her to abandon their child and get herself killed. I'm not placing blame, just saying in his greif, this might have made Wulfgar seem a bit more . . . deep.
Then again, Wulfgar didn't seem that deep after having been to the Abyss until Spine of the World. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 22 Jul 2005 14:45:13 |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 13:57:30
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quote:
Back to Wulfgar, does anyone else think, right or wrong, that Wulfgar perhaps should have been more upset with Catti-brie for her sword possesing his wife and leading her to abandon their child and get herself killed. I'm not placing blame, just saying in his greif, this might have made Wulfgar seem a bit more . . . deep
Uh... I take it this happens in the THIRD book? DOH! Still havn't read that one, waiting on paperback. Seriously dude, spoiler alerts would have been nice...
In any event, remember, Wulfgar is a barbarian of the Tundra, where death is a constant companion, and I can imagine after his trials and time on another plane his perspectives on things like death are going to be somewhat nonstandard. |
Edited by - Forge on 22 Jul 2005 14:13:51 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 14:42:42
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Sorry Forge . . . since I was analysing Wulfgar from begining to end, I just got carried away and swept all the way to the last thing in his current history. I appologize.
I know it doesn't help Forge (sorry) but I did makes some edits to keep this from happening again. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 22 Jul 2005 14:45:58 |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 03:08:08
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One of the things I enjoy most about Salvatore's writing is that he makes even the simplist of "offical" monsters deadly. Kobolds vs. Armored dwarves, those pointy wooden spears are deadly. Stupid orcs vs. dancing dual-wielding scimitars, watch out dark-skin your gonna get chopped by an axe!
Too many PLAYERS have gotten into the comfort of low level monsers as cannon fodder. One of my favorite encounters was with a kobold that had access to a variety of equipment and potions that made him damn-near unbeatable. He nearly wiped out entire party alone and we ran going, "WTF? He's a KOBOLD!"
Now on to topic, I persnally liked Wulfgar. Sterotypical barbarian that came to become a king to leave and stand by his friends. His death showed that even the strongest fall in battle and for good causes, and his jealousy that brought about his doom was more human than many of Drizzt's journal entries from the entire series. I also liked that I read an entire book about a fallen man, lost in the bottle, who climbed his way out to stand strong again (inspiring) and was turning pages like it was battle after battle agasint drow, orcs, dragons and demons!
Lets not forget, who didnt wince when they read of the tortures he suffered in the Abyss? Baby's head bitten off? Straddling an anvil and having your manhood crushed? OUCH! |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 08:10:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
One of the things I enjoy most about Salvatore's writing is that he makes even the simplist of "offical" monsters deadly. Kobolds vs. Armored dwarves, those pointy wooden spears are deadly. Stupid orcs vs. dancing dual-wielding scimitars, watch out dark-skin your gonna get chopped by an axe!
Too many PLAYERS have gotten into the comfort of low level monsers as cannon fodder. One of my favorite encounters was with a kobold that had access to a variety of equipment and potions that made him damn-near unbeatable. He nearly wiped out entire party alone and we ran going, "WTF? He's a KOBOLD!"
Now on to topic, I persnally liked Wulfgar. Sterotypical barbarian that came to become a king to leave and stand by his friends. His death showed that even the strongest fall in battle and for good causes, and his jealousy that brought about his doom was more human than many of Drizzt's journal entries from the entire series. I also liked that I read an entire book about a fallen man, lost in the bottle, who climbed his way out to stand strong again (inspiring) and was turning pages like it was battle after battle agasint drow, orcs, dragons and demons!
Lets not forget, who didnt wince when they read of the tortures he suffered in the Abyss? Baby's head bitten off? Straddling an anvil and having your manhood crushed? OUCH!
Wulfgar lives on! He lifespan extended by the spirit of his Barbarian clan. He will reunite with Drizzt yet again!!
Seriously perhaps Wulfgar has progeny running around, some of which could possibly wield the mighty Aegis Fang. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 18:50:21
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He spent time in hell and made love to demons (or devils... or whatever...)
There you go right there - he has already been 'dead', so its not much of a stretch to say "Heaven didn't want him, and neither did hell", or some-such. Or just say his time with Outsiders allowed some of their diabolic immortality to 'rub off' on him.
Please... if RAS can have Entreri take a dip in the Shade-pool, then he can surely keep anyone else he wants. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2011 18:50:38 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 19:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[brLook, I like Drizzt. But if you drop him in the middle of 100 orcs, he's in trouble. Sure, if he can get a good defensive spot, he can hold out for a while. But if the orcs keep coming, eventually they'll simply wear him down. He can dance and whip around those scimitars real well, but what happens after he's being doing this continuously for 12 hours? What about 18 hours, or 36? If the orcs keep coming, he's going to have to retreat or fall. There's no way around that.
Only if the orcs care nothing for their own lives and continue to charge into certain death for hours.
Assuming that most sentient beings have a sense of self-preservation, establishing a pattern of killing anyone who comes close to you tends to encourage the others to stay back and wait for someone else to try to charge you.
In the real world, this is how one man in heavy armour can defend a bridge or narrow passage from hordes of enemies. Aristocrats who could afford armour also tended to be better fed than peasants, so one knight or Roman noble against a mob of poorer enemies might be a head taller, far stronger and wearing armour that it was all but impossible to penetrate. Is it any wonder that after a while, the people individually making up the other side decided that going within reach of that guy's sword or spear was a poor career move and that they'd just wait for someone else on their side to be a hero?
Given that D&D rules enable heroes to shrug off weapon blows from lesser mortals and kill great swathes of them in each hit, simply increasing the numbers of foes doesn't really pose a great challenge in terms of combat. As long as the foes are intelligent, they'll learn to stay out of melee range from the invincible God-(N)PC. Of course, if the D&D hero can use missile weapons as well, a single mid-level character might be able to massacre thousands of orcs per day without significant risk.
On the other hand, D&D rules are poorly adapted to modelling characters from the Forgotten Realms and make it all but impossible to tell traditional fantasy stories. Certainly RA Salvatore's stories about Drizzt and Wulfgar do not assume that the characters have the supernatural durability implied by their D&D stats. Wounds hurt them and impede their performance, a dagger or spear could theoretically end their lives if they failed to defend themselves, etc. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 20:28:36
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| So the number of foes doesn't matter, huh? Let me DM for you, and you'll sing a different tune. I don't care how strong and skilled a swordswinger you are, enough orcs will wear you down and kill you. |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 20:49:57
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I dont understand this idea that high-levle characters are unstoppable. A natural 20 in game hits. Period. Even if your facing a horde of kobolds thats at least (at least statistically) one in 20 hits. Not only that but possible critical strikes and even a 20th level warrior with 200 Hit Points in full plate and SOONER or later they are going down.
High level wizards can wipe out hordes of enemies with a few simple spells but my 20th levle mage had 50 Hit Points, 50! I wouldnt survive two rounds against a LONE troll in melee.
hordes of low level baddies walking up to an epic hero are gonna get wiped, duh! But why would they? Have the kobolds or orc use brute tactics such as piling on grappling, bull rush and aid-another for better bonuses. Sooner or later hero or no, the baddies will win.
Also, as a house rule, fatigue sets in sooner or later. Players can only fight for a number of minutes equal to their constitution before facing fatigue and exhaustion. even a hero gets winded from wearing 50 pounds of armor and swinging that 8 pound sword. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 23:37:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So the number of foes doesn't matter, huh? Let me DM for you, and you'll sing a different tune. I don't care how strong and skilled a swordswinger you are, enough orcs will wear you down and kill you.
In a system I would care for?
Sure.
In D&D?
Not so much. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 12 Nov 2011 23:38:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 00:43:03
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The only other character I know of that wades into entire armies of enemies is Elric of Melnibonea.
Oh... wait... I forgot, they are the same guy.
Conan, Elric, Gimli, Bilbo, and maid Marian.... me thinks I know that group under other names. 
Anyhow, I always wondered why Orcs never bother to use archers in novels - they have them, and considering their subsistence-level existence, probably damn good one. I guess for the same reason why fifty guys with machine guns (or blasters) can't hit a single good guy in the movies.
You know why Drizzt stays on his side of Anauroch? Because the Dalesmen don't know him, an he'd be pin-cushioned 20 seconds after he entered the region. Two uber-kewl swords swung by the ultimate emro (emo-hero) won't do any good when your foes are 100 yards away, in the trees, and completely concealed.
"But... but.... I'm Drizzt Do'Urdan!" {gasp}
"Roun' here, we just call you supper.. hyuk hyuk... grab 'em, Clem, and sling 'em over the mule... I got me a hankerin' for some Dark meat t'nite." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2011 00:43:45 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 02:32:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
even a hero gets winded from wearing 50 pounds of armor and swinging that 8 pound sword.
There is no such thing as an 8-pound sword. Even a massively heavy sword is still far lighter than 8-pound.d
Anything used by a real sword-swinger is very different from the idea of an 8-lbs. sword. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 13 Nov 2011 02:47:19 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 00:56:46
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| I cry BS to that! I've handled plenty of swords, from small gladius-types, to the massice claymores, and yes, there IS such a thing. don't believe me? Perhaps you'd like to talk to a certain swordsmith whose work I've admired for years. Look up Angel Sword. Trust me, these are BATTLE-READY blades, not some replica knock-offs. I've seen the smith cut a two inch rope with one swipe, shave LAYERS off a business card, and one of his blades was used to set a world record. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 01:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I cry BS to that! I've handled plenty of swords, from small gladius-types, to the massice claymores, and yes, there IS such a thing. don't believe me? Perhaps you'd like to talk to a certain swordsmith whose work I've admired for years. Look up Angel Sword. Trust me, these are BATTLE-READY blades, not some replica knock-offs. I've seen the smith cut a two inch rope with one swipe, shave LAYERS off a business card, and one of his blades was used to set a world record.
Examing their site, I find that a two-handed great sword from them weighs 3 lbs. and 10 oz.
That's reasonable enough. Extensive analysis of historical swords indicates that nothing meant to be used with one hand ever weighed much more than 3 lbs. and nothing meant to be used with two hands was much more than 5 lbs., with most examples being slightly lighter than this.
What is this battle-ready sword from them that you think weighs 8 lbs. or more? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 01:53:28
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| I'm fairly sure that several of their largest blades weigh at least eight lbs. Picked up a few that from sheer size alone might have been ten. Mind, these were probably also some of their custom pieces that had never been picked up, so materials may play a factor. He will make just about any blade a customer wants, provided the materials are available. Some of the woods and heavier metals can certainly bring up the weight, I know. Actually asked about a matching pair of sabers I wanted made sith silver handles and some moonstones set in- would have cost at least $3000..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 02:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm fairly sure that several of their largest blades weigh at least eight lbs. Picked up a few that from sheer size alone might have been ten. Mind, these were probably also some of their custom pieces that had never been picked up, so materials may play a factor. He will make just about any blade a customer wants, provided the materials are available. Some of the woods and heavier metals can certainly bring up the weight, I know. Actually asked about a matching pair of sabers I wanted made sith silver handles and some moonstones set in- would have cost at least $3000.....
Of course it's possible to build a sword-shaped object that weighs 8 lbs. The point is that at this point, it is no longer an accurate replica of a historical weapon, but a showpiece.
Poor Victorian scholarship and modern wall-hangers that were never intended to be used in battle have convinced a lot of roleplayers and game designers that swords can weigh up to 15 lbs. Just isn't so. A stronger man can swing a 3 lbs. faster and harder than a weaker one. He gains little benefit from making it heavier because so doing would play havoc with the balance (assuming he was otherwise human-shaped and thus required the same ergonomics).
As it happens, even maces and axes usually conformed to the 3 lbs. (one-hand)/5 lbs. (two-hands) rule. It is the weigh distribution that makes these weapons different.
It seems that there is a pretty significant sweet spot in performance at these weights and anyone making a real weapon used in deadly earnest took account of it. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 02:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I cry BS to that! I've handled plenty of swords, from small gladius-types, to the massice claymores, and yes, there IS such a thing. don't believe me? Perhaps you'd like to talk to a certain swordsmith whose work I've admired for years. Look up Angel Sword. Trust me, these are BATTLE-READY blades, not some replica knock-offs. I've seen the smith cut a two inch rope with one swipe, shave LAYERS off a business card, and one of his blades was used to set a world record.
BS your BS  . Shouldn't call it without facts. Even hand a a half bastard swords rarely weighed even 5 pounds. Massive two handed swords were rarely even 6.5 lbs. People forget how much smaller men were ithose days, even the physically fit and well nourished pale in comparison to our footballers, who would tire in mere moments swinging a 10-15 lbs sword. The only blades that were near that heavy were parade items for show and intimidation. I'm not doubting your smith makes such swords, and they are most likely battle ready. But they are not accurate to what was used, or is found in museums.
And the massive claymores you handled mentioned averaged 55 inches and about 5.5 lbs.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm
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John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 15 Nov 2011 02:13:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 05:00:34
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| Perhaps a few less calls of BS are in order, before someone takes offense... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 05:16:54
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Hamster-'S' then?
I thought a Scottish Claymore would weigh at least eight pounds, but according to Wiki, the largest only weighed 2.8 Kg (6.2 lbs.)
Ergo, I too call Hamster-poo!
I swung a large framing hammer (32 oz.) for more then 20 years, for at least eight hours a day, 5-7 days a week. Thats why my forearms are so well developed (more-so then my upper arms, so I got a 'Popeye' thing going on). Most old-school (pre-nail-gun) carpenters have arms like that.
You wouldn't think swinging around two pounds would give you that kind of workout, but when you do it for that may hours a day, EVERY day, it is. A guy who had to do that with an eight pound sword would look like the Incredible Hulk. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2011 05:18:47 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 03:12:11
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What I wanna know is how heavy do you think Aegis-fang is? It's magically crafted so that Wulfgar could wield it with apparent ease, but almost everyone else who tried ended up struggling.
(Well, there is one exceptional scene in the novel Sea of Swords in which little Regis, hiding inside a cool chimney, somehow picks up the hammer and then crawls back up through the chute with the hammer in tow! Um...yeah...) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 03:53:28
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
What I wanna know is how heavy do you think Aegis-fang is? It's magically crafted so that Wulfgar could wield it with apparent ease, but almost everyone else who tried ended up struggling.
(Well, there is one exceptional scene in the novel Sea of Swords in which little Regis, hiding inside a cool chimney, somehow picks up the hammer and then crawls back up through the chute with the hammer in tow! Um...yeah...)
I'd say it's "magically light" for anyone it approves of and it's "magically heavy" for those it doesnt |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 06:09:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
What I wanna know is how heavy do you think Aegis-fang is? It's magically crafted so that Wulfgar could wield it with apparent ease, but almost everyone else who tried ended up struggling.
(Well, there is one exceptional scene in the novel Sea of Swords in which little Regis, hiding inside a cool chimney, somehow picks up the hammer and then crawls back up through the chute with the hammer in tow! Um...yeah...)
A weapon 'too heavy for anyone to wield' could still be light enough for anyone to pick up. Being just 10 lbs. or so would mean that no one with human level strength (or a human build, indeed) could use if effectively as a weapon (too slow), but that obviously doesn't prevent even quite weak characters from carrying it easily. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Nov 2011 06:09:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 17:22:09
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In other words, it is just like Mjölnir (in Marvel comics - not sure about the mythological version). It can only be lifted by one who is 'worthy'. In the case of Wulfgar's weapon, I would say it was a more limited dweomer - something akin to the hammer being very heavy physically, but getting magically lighter proportionate to the 'purity' of one's soul (or intentions, etc).
Then again, that doesn't hold much water either, since Regis was technically a thief and a fugitive, and Wulgar had no trouble weilding it after doing the nasty with fiends.
The real answer is: It weighs whatever RAS needs it to weigh at the moment. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2011 17:24:34 |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 03:30:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know why Drizzt stays on his side of Anauroch? Because the Dalesmen don't know him, an he'd be pin-cushioned 20 seconds after he entered the region. Two uber-kewl swords swung by the ultimate emro (emo-hero) won't do any good when your foes are 100 yards away, in the trees, and completely concealed.
"But... but.... I'm Drizzt Do'Urdan!" {gasp}
"Roun' here, we just call you supper.. hyuk hyuk... grab 'em, Clem, and sling 'em over the mule... I got me a hankerin' for some Dark meat t'nite."
That got a chuckle out of me. |
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Character Study: Wulfgar (Possible Spoilers)
