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Drummer Boy
Senior Scribe
USA
395 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Mar 2003 : 02:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Drummer Boy
quote:
Originally posted by Echon
Do rangers recieve ambidexterity by default in 3E?
-Echon
No, I don't think so.
Sorry for the misinformation. I'm a bit new to 3e (and D&D in general). I started to make a ranger character and never noticed that the have ambidexterity. It does seem a bit strange, though. It's like they're saying you can't be a ranger unless you can do things with both hands. It seems unrealistic because in real life not many people have ambidexterity, but there isn't a shortage of rangers in D&D. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2003 : 08:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Drummer Boy
quote:
Originally posted by Drummer Boy
quote:
Originally posted by Echon
Do rangers recieve ambidexterity by default in 3E?
-Echon
No, I don't think so.
Sorry for the misinformation. I'm a bit new to 3e (and D&D in general). I started to make a ranger character and never noticed that the have ambidexterity. It does seem a bit strange, though. It's like they're saying you can't be a ranger unless you can do things with both hands. It seems unrealistic because in real life not many people have ambidexterity, but there isn't a shortage of rangers in D&D.
IMO rangers should get this benefits only if the ranger class is taken at 1st level. I don't like much the idea of a fighter who become a ranger in the middle of a campaign without a good reason.
I think that being ranger is a state of mind (state of mind... )
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2003 : 22:53:26
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zemd:
>IMO rangers should get this benefits only if the ranger class is
>taken at 1st level. I don't like much the idea of a fighter who
>become a ranger in the middle of a campaign without a good reason.
Yes, it's not cheap if a PC starts as ranger and keeps being a ranger for several levels. The cheapest in my opinion is to take the first level as ranger to get all those bonuses, then switch to the "real" class. I would be more inclined to impose some sort of arbitrary number of levels a person must take as a ranger if he wants to be a ranger at all. I don't like arbitrary rules, but the way I see it, a DM can either do that or hope the players aren't minmaxers or use Monte Cooke's "official" alternate ranger. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 19:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
Monte Cooke's "official" alternate ranger.
What's that class? |
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Minardil
Acolyte
Finland
18 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2003 : 14:55:38
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| Possibly fighter/druids wouldn't be good becouse of druid's weapon restrictions. Thief/barbarian wouldn't be good either. |
Can we not be friends? After all, our dust shall be equal in the end. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2003 : 18:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
Any mid-level character with only 1 level of ranger.
THAT is exactly the worse class combo I can think of. WREAKS of min/maxing. But the fighter/mage being the worse? Come on now, if you do not think of it as a game stats thing (i.e. fighters can wear armour, mages can't) it is a great combination.
SURE thinking of spreading your skills out will reduce the power of the mage. that is what happens when you multiclass! How is it bad? Fighting ability with Mage defenses? And you do not have to worry about SOMEONE else placing it upon you. IF you play fighter mages to their potential, pick your spells right, and learn to play a fighter without heavy armour (which is not always the best thing to do as a fighter) then you will probably see that the fighter/mage is actually BETTER Than a straight fighter or wizard. You just have to have a definite idea in mind (offensive/or defensive type mage) and an idea how much magic you want the fellow to have. I have rarely had straight classed characters able to beat my fighter/mages. One example from Literature is Elric. Richard Cypher. Remember the original ELF was created as a fighter/mage. Until ADVANCED D&D was published all elves were fighter/mages.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 03:22:33
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Here's my opinion.
Most ridiculous multiclass: Druid/Invoker
Class that reeks most of minmaxers. For those who played NWN, you will know that it stops at lvl 20. I met some people who actually took Sor19/Pal1. The Pal1 was there to use the Paladin's increased saving throws based on Charisma and the Sorc oozes charisma. Bard19/Pal1 is equally bad.
As for fighter/mages, fighters do not necessary need to wear heavy armor like plate and such. Examples include Artemis Entreri, Arilyn Moonblade and Elaith Craulnober. |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 03:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
Warrior/Cleric
Too much overlap in the fighting abilities of the classes. A cleric is generically a backup fighter. If you are going to multiclass choosing something with less duplication of abilities.
Fig/Cle are actually a good multiclass. Ability-wise, they have partially the Fighter's BAB, Weapon Specialisation, Feats, and the Cleric's ability for protection spells on themselves so that they can wade into the thick of the fighting. The Cleric's divine spells are not affected by armor, making the vision of a full plate divine warrior plausible.
Roleplay wise, this could be a good background for someone who are just not cut out to be a paladin, being not pious enough or due to some hidden negative quality that he fails to be a paladin. But he wants to live up to the ideal of the paladin and this is something that he could do, multiclass as a fighter/cleric. A very good example is Anorem's background in Shadows over Amn. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 09:12:37
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| Is Druid/Invoker possible? I thought only Gnome could multiclass with a specialist wizard class: Illusionist |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 16:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Leona
Here's my opinion.
Most ridiculous multiclass: Druid/Invoker
Class that reeks most of minmaxers. For those who played NWN, you will know that it stops at lvl 20. I met some people who actually took Sor19/Pal1. The Pal1 was there to use the Paladin's increased saving throws based on Charisma and the Sorc oozes charisma. Bard19/Pal1 is equally bad.
As for fighter/mages, fighters do not necessary need to wear heavy armor like plate and such. Examples include Artemis Entreri, Arilyn Moonblade and Elaith Craulnober.
I don't ever really get upset at min/maxers on Computer games because the roleplaying is so limited. For myself, in the computer games I usually play a ranger, but with 4 levels of fighter. I don't feel particularly bad about this, as to me it seems more of an enhancement to the rangers current abilities (i.e. fighting due to specialization) then an attempt at min maxing. i do this because house rules in my 2nd ed game were that any fighter SUBCLASS could specialize and double specialize.
I never allow Paladins to multiclass as sorcerers. In fact if someone DOES NOT start out as a Sorcerer, Barbarian, or Paladin there has to be something in their character history that says they have potential for one of these classes.
or a story development has to occur to allow it. Such as an old priest of Tyr sensing "Something weird about that thief, come along with me little urchin..."
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 03:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Is Druid/Invoker possible? I thought only Gnome could multiclass with a specialist wizard class: Illusionist
Sorry, dual class under 2E rules. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 15:37:23
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There are some really solid opinions here. The arguement for and against some of the worst multi-class PC's have been well supported. In fact the only reason I am posting is to basically tell you all that this thread has actually made my gaming sessions alot more easier to run.
I have a few hardline elements who persist in having difficult to run multi-class PC's, but after showing these elements this thread, the players now have a new perspective on some of the difficult multi-class PC they sometimes try to run, and have since made my DMing a little easier.
Thanks for the help,
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 23:07:10
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*Blink..... Blinkety blink.... blink* .... Wow.... Ok people. I understand about the poor C/M/T's being restricted.... but think about all the power that comes from that. Oh ... I have to back stab with a blunt weapon. There are parts of the body on any creature is just as deadly as being stabed with a sharp one  . Now I get divine spells and can wear armor. I get more spell because im a mage wooohoo! I have arcane spells WOOHOO! Big deal I get a small percentage that it might fail... I still have a big chance WOOHOO! ... Aww... I can sneak around and use a sheild? ;_; .... Im so happy that I can smack this guy in the back of the head, and do it because I can make myself inviso ... Cleric mage theifs might be restricted but if you play things out right oh god *shivers and shakes head some* you can make a very powerful char. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 04:16:25
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| For the C/M/T, you ae having a 40 percent cut if your classes are not within 1 level of each other and none of them are your favored class. You would also have to spread all your levels between 3 classes. There is a price to pay for all the versatility of a C/M/T and a 7/7/6 character will not be as powerful as a lvl 20 single character. Of course, the NPCs described in FR usually are stock full of multiple classes. Do not take them as examples. They are usually shown this way as the authors of various books wrote them displaying this ability and that. Good example is Drizzt when he left Menzoberranzan and lived in the wilds like a primal hunter for 10 years. For that, the FR set credits him with 1 level of barbarian. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 04:29:18
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| Hey, both of you, tone it down, will you? You both sound like you're getting too intense about this. Obviously something's liked and disliked about multiclassing, so neither of you can be right. I don't know what it is, and I don't care. This is for simple discussion, not heated argument. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Artalis
Senior Scribe
USA
444 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 12:13:15
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Did I miss something? Looks like an interesting discussion to me not an arguement. Did something get edited or we being a little overzelous in proclaiming other overzelous?
Re-read the posts gentlemen, I see no heated remarks being exchanged, perhaps a bit of enthusiasm on the part of Cult_Leader but that's about all...
Hmmm...
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Artalis
Email
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2003 : 02:51:04
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Same here. And I read them both over very carefully before posting that. Of course, with Cult Leader, it's hard to tell -- he always sounds like he's giving someone the finger.   |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 15:17:11
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to come back a bit to the topic, whats ur favourite multi-class?
I do like rogue/mage, bard/fighter or paladin/fighter or priest/mage as well
and paladin/ranger is also a nice idea but u have to make a good background |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 15:24:44
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I would have to saymy favorite multi-class would be, Sorcerer/Cleric - you receive the best of both magical worlds.
May your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Jun 2003 15:25:28 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 16:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
to come back a bit to the topic, whats ur favourite multi-class?
Um . . . that's not the topic. That's the antithesis of the topic (or almost, anyway). This is supposed to be about what the worst one is. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 10:27:16
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Well, there's another scroll for that, titled "Favorite Class?" There was some discussion of multi-classing there. The scroll died out soon after I posted, though.
(Hmm, I wonder if that was just a conincidence or not?) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
Edited by - Bookwyrm on 07 Jun 2003 10:28:15 |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 14:40:35
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thats an argue between two lawful sages...
and in prestige, they are talking almost all the time about prestige class and multiclass to get some prestige class, aren't they?
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 19:04:47
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Bard/sorcerer seems like it'd be hard to figure out. or example, would he be able to use the Silent Spell feat when the player declares he's "casting as a sorcerer"?
Do the rules prohibit mage/sorcerer or mage/bard? These would be tough to handle, too. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 20:51:39
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First of all, a mage is either a sorcerer or a wizard. I was glad to find that out -- I like the term mage, and it's good that it hasn't disappeared from D&D.
Second, there are no rules against those two multiclasses. There's even a rule (it's under the 'familiars' section) that deals with the 'special case' of a sorcerer/wizard. (Basically, for determining familiar powers, you add the two classes together.) There's another ruling for minmaxing -- a specialist wizard can use an item (like a wand or a scroll) from a prohibited school if (s)he takes a level of sorcerer.
Finally, Artalis's character in Mumadar's Silver Marches PbeM is a 1st level sorcerer/1st level wizard. He comes from the Tree Ghost tribe of the Uthgardt, so since he's an arcane spellcaster he can never go back. He's just joined up with my character, a 3rd level wizard fresh from Silverymoon and the college of magic, to learn more.
(And yes, I do see the irony inherent in a newbie playing a character who's supposed to be a mentor to the character of an experienced player.  ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 21:32:38
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| Well, then, if the rules don't prohibit sorcerer/wizard, that gets my vote as the worst multi-class, present company notwithstanding. They supposedly have two totally different approaches to arcane magic. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 10 Jun 2003 21:34:40 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 06:21:43
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Bookwyrm said -
quote:
I was glad to find that out -- I like the term mage, and it's good that it hasn't disappeared from D&D.
Yes, I like the term 'mage' as well when applied to sorcerers/wizards. I also like 'arcane spellcaster' as well, but that's a different story altogether.
Bookwyrm, I am just curious as to your reasons why you like the term 'mage'. For me, it seems to carry the essence of being a spellcaster better than the term wizard, which at present normally makes people think of 'Harry-Potter-type' characters.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 11 Jun 2003 06:22:39 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 06:40:19
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Frankly, I don't really know. There's no real reason. I just like it.
In my second fantasy story, but the first story I created a new world (the first fantasy was about magic coming back to 20th century Earth as ancient sorcerers woke up and started to conquer -- I had modern military supported by magic, that was fun) I showed this when I created a whole list of 'titles' for different magic-users. I guess it was like the specialist names in D&D. A wizard used battle magic (and was a common term, since most obvious, public uses of magic were of that type); an enchanter worked his magic on objects; a sorcerer was a demon-summoner; and a magician was like the D&D non-specialist. (There were other names, of course, but 'illusionist' and 'necromancer' and such are obvious.)
The mage was, technically, a very powerful, experienced magician. He would be the one you would go to for information as well as magic. 'Mage' was more of a title than anything else, and not one awarded; it was something that people would use out of respect. To be a mage was to be powerful, wise, and learned. I guess it would be like the old Jewish way of calling such a person 'rabbi,' or teacher. It didn't use to be only for a religious leader. Though perhaps the distinction wasn't all that wide.
Anyway, what I was trying to say, there's no real reason that I like 'mage,' other than the image it provokes. If I have to point to any one source, it would be my brother's second story, called The Few. (Very good concept, but he abandoned it due to the fact that it needs to be rewritten from the ground up.) In it, there was mention of a dead spellcaster named Wren Aldoon. He had "reached the rare and exalted rank of mage." I suppose that might have done it for me. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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worst multi-class
