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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 00:19:58
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Greetings!
Reading the scroll about Troy Denning reminded me of Tilverton and I have to ask. Did the destruction of Tilverton actually effect anything its one town in Cormyr and seems to me wouldnt have much of an impact. Also do they know what destroyed it yet and was it a random act of destruction or is there some plot behind it all?
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Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 03:44:33
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Senbar Flay, the destruction of Tilverton did make a big impact on Cormyr. The Forest Kingdom only have like several large "cities": Suzail, Marsember, Arabel, Tilverton, etc. With the loss of Tilverton, especially in such dark times for Cormyr, it is a loss both economically and militarily.
The destruction of Tilverton is common knowledge, as there was such a big battle there between the Heartland Alliance and the Shade Enclave. There were over ten thousand soldiers from the Heartland Alliance consisting from several different nations so the news of Tilverton's destruction would indeed be known by many. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 06:55:39
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| What if the Shadovar purposely destroyed Tilverton just to intimidate the nations of Faerun by showing their superior magical might and weaken the Heartland military forces by drawing them into the battle of Tilverton so that the Shadovar can easily conquer them or at least suppress opposition to their campaign of restoring Netheril? I think there might be a plot behind the Shadovar actions in Tilverton. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 07:36:57
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The Shades never exactly intended to "destroy" Tilverton. The Shade Enclave was there for two reasons: to capture Galaeron back and to disrupt the Heartland Alliance.
The only reason Tilverton was destroyed and swallowed by the shadows was a result of the clash between shadow magic and Vangerdahast's light artifact.
Also, ancient Nethril was never near the Heartlands. It wouldn't be a campaign to conquer Faerun because the Shade Enclave knows even with all their power they cannot accomplish such a task. Its borders were around the Anauroch and all Shade Enclave wants is to restore THAT part of their empire to its former glory. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 12:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
Greetings!
Reading the scroll about Troy Denning reminded me of Tilverton and I have to ask. Did the destruction of Tilverton actually effect anything its one town in Cormyr and seems to me wouldnt have much of an impact. Also do they know what destroyed it yet and was it a random act of destruction or is there some plot behind it all?
Don't forgot the timing of the loss of Tilverton. Following the loss of a King and the damage to the land, the loss of Tilverton could hit the psyche of Cormyrites hard. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:04:12
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Another side effect is that of political instability. While Cormyr and the Dales have opposed the forces of darkness for quite some time, they have in essence established an uneasy balance.
With the fall of Azoun and the destruction of Tilverton, they will be scrambling to recover, in commerce, morale, and manpower. This takes a good deal of the focus off of Shade, thus allowing them the opportunity to entrench and establish themselves. |
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FreezeChaser
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:34:17
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| But it seems that Cormyr had to fend off internal invaders as well such as exiled nobles who are still eyeing the Purple Dragon Throne and may plot to retake it and dispose of Alusair Obarskyr and Prince Azoun V. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:40:29
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quote:
But it seems that Cormyr had to fend off internal invaders as well such as exiled nobles who are still eyeing the Purple Dragon Throne and may plot to retake it and dispose of Alusair Obarskyr and Prince Azoun V.
True, but that is pretty much business as usual and part of the reason the Mage Royal has been given so much lateral freedoms and leeway to do as they see fit for the good of the kingdom. You have to realize that at it's roots, Cormyr is a small town gone horribly wrong. Many of the XXX-silver clans were just as entitled to the throne as anyone else with the caveat that they are bound by the agreement their ancestors made with the elves centuries ago.
Now, I acknowledge that after centuries of ruling, the Obarskyr(sp?) line are the rightful rulers, but there is a LOT of unacknowledged royal blood in the land, some pretty close to the throne. I know at least one minor noble was acknowledged by Alusair and in the end she and he came to the happy medium by acknowledging that he was her brother and still not anywhere near the throne... but not all are so understanding. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:38:47
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't (wasn't) Tilverton considered by most Cormyreans to be something like a distant holding -- kinda like the US and Guam? As I recall, Tilverton is too recent an acquisition and too distant a holding to be part of what Cormyreans think of when they think of their kingdom.
While there would be an impact from the destruction of the city, if I am correct, that "it's just some place way out there" attitude would mitigate that. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:40:52
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| I seem to recall Ed saying something to that effect a while back, yes. On a side note, though. Considering the city's size, I think Hawaii would've been a better paralell than Guam |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 18:02:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I seem to recall Ed saying something to that effect a while back, yes. On a side note, though. Considering the city's size, I think Hawaii would've been a better paralell than Guam
Nah... Most people at least want to go to Hawaii, and could find it on a map. Plus, it has its own mystique.
Disclaimer: I'm not dissing Guam, I'm just discussing the attitudes I see. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 18:17:08
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| Well, I'm thinking of it more like "A thousand voices crying out then suddenly silent" kind of thing. I mean Alderaan wasn't the center of the universe, but dang, we're talking a whole CITY wiped off the map. That's gonna leave a mark for years to come. It's something that everyone at least knows someone who was affected by it personally. (In Cormyr anyways.) Couple with the rumors and .... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 23:03:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Well, I'm thinking of it more like "A thousand voices crying out then suddenly silent" kind of thing. I mean Alderaan wasn't the center of the universe, but dang, we're talking a whole CITY wiped off the map. That's gonna leave a mark for years to come. It's something that everyone at least knows someone who was affected by it personally. (In Cormyr anyways.) Couple with the rumors and ....
Not necessarily... As I said, Tilverton was a ways from the rest of Cormyr, and hadn't been in the kingdom for very long. Plus, in the Realms, a lot of people don't travel very far at all, if ever.
I think that for most of Cormyr (not including the Purple Dragons), if you knew someone who was personally affected by it, you'd be in the minority. |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 23:25:35
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You said that the city was destroyed due to a battle between the Heratland Allaicne and the shadowvar. I'm wondering if there is anywhere I can find detials on this battle and this "Heartland Alliance" Is it in a novel? A website?
Please let me know thanks |
Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 23:36:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
You said that the city was destroyed due to a battle between the Heratland Allaicne and the shadowvar. I'm wondering if there is anywhere I can find detials on this battle and this "Heartland Alliance" Is it in a novel? A website?
Please let me know thanks
Easy answer there - Return of the Archwizards Book II by Troy Denning - describes the whole final battle in the end of the book. And what is left after the whole place kind of blinked out of reality.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 23:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
You said that the city was destroyed due to a battle between the Heratland Allaicne and the shadowvar. I'm wondering if there is anywhere I can find detials on this battle and this "Heartland Alliance" Is it in a novel? A website?
Please let me know thanks
Easy answer there - Return of the Archwizards Book II by Troy Denning - describes the whole final battle in the end of the book. And what is left after the whole place kind of blinked out of reality.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 23:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
You said that the city was destroyed due to a battle between the Heratland Allaicne and the shadowvar. I'm wondering if there is anywhere I can find detials on this battle and this "Heartland Alliance" Is it in a novel? A website?
Please let me know thanks
Easy answer there - Return of the Archwizards Book II by Troy Denning - describes the whole final battle in the end of the book. And what is left after the whole place kind of blinked out of reality.
C-Fb
I apologize everyone.. screwy computer!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 00:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I apologize everyone.. screwy computer!
C-Fb
The rightmost icon above your post, the one with the small trash can -- you can use this to delete posts.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 02:25:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't (wasn't) Tilverton considered by most Cormyreans to be something like a distant holding -- kinda like the US and Guam? As I recall, Tilverton is too recent an acquisition and too distant a holding to be part of what Cormyreans think of when they think of their kingdom.
At the time of printing of the 2e setting, Tilverton is still mentioned as being a recent Cormyrean "acquisition". It was partly the reason why the Dalelands at the time were growing suspicious of Azoun's intentions for the region.
And as I recall, Tilverton isn't even mentioned in the Old Grey Box.
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 14:56:02
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Esteemed Scholar of the family Rodentia,
I understand that perhaps Cormyr as a whole is perhaps somewhat lackluster in it's care for Tilverton. But consider this, if someone obliterated a major city in another nation, or even a border town in your own country, don't you think there would be a hue and cry?
The whole frigging city *poof* gone. This means revised trade routes, revised logistics for the armed forces in the field. This means revised harvests and revinues as well as loss of the levies from the town for the Kingdom. This means that whatever goods produced by that area/town are going to be priced more dear as they will be in shorter supply.
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Edited by - Forge on 30 Jun 2005 18:46:08 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 17:29:56
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I agree with Forge.
Also, even if Tilverton isn't that "important" to Cormyr and the rest of the Realms, surely an army of Purple Dragons and 10000 Heartland Alliance mercenaries fighting against the Shade Enclave should draw more than enough attention. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 18:22:38
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| In a country where there aren`t many big cities(like Cormyr) it sure as hell has a lot of effect. Here in Finland for example we don`t have many cities with large populations, so if for example Rovaniemi or Vasa were to be wiped off the map it would be a really hard blow. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 00:14:25
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My point is that people tend to be less concerned with major events when the event doesn't happen anywhere near them, and/or when they aren't directly affected.
Are Cormyreans going to care that a Cormyrean town got nuked? Yes, they are. But are they going to care as much as they would if Marsember got nuked? No, not by a long shot. Tilverton is distant, and not overly important to the kingdom. Thus, their reaction to its loss will be muted.
I think that the loss of a bunch of Purple Dragons would have more of an impact than the loss of the town. Not everyone knows someone from Tilverton, but everyone knows a Purple Dragon or several. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 01:21:11
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| Unless Suzail, Capital City of Cormyr happened to be "Tilverton" which will likely demoralize the whole country and plunge the Kingdom into a power vacuum, I don't think the Cormyreans are likely to be so hard hit by the loss of Tilverton. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 01:27:58
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Well folks, if you recall, the fall of Tilverton was one of several factors that I mentioned that would shake up Cormyr and cause them to withdraw to recoup and regroup.
Honestly though, Tilverton is NOT that far from Cormyr, and is about the same distance from Shadowdale as from Suzail. To boot it's a strong vantage point to hold for any force hoping to assault into the Anauroch, a last bastion of resupply. It's also a good likely trade route between The Dales and Cormyr, the 2 strongest forces opposing Shade at that point. (Or at least the most prominent threats.) |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 01:39:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Well folks, if you recall, the fall of Tilverton was one of several factors that I mentioned that would shake up Cormyr and cause them to withdraw to recoup and regroup.
Honestly though, Tilverton is NOT that far from Cormyr, and is about the same distance from Shadowdale as from Suzail. To boot it's a strong vantage point to hold for any force hoping to assault into the Anauroch, a last bastion of resupply. It's also a good likely trade route between The Dales and Cormyr, the 2 strongest forces opposing Shade at that point. (Or at least the most prominent threats.)
So Tilverton as a strategic point is lost...well, smart move by the Shadovar to eliminate a strategic threat. So I guess any new assaults against the Shadovar must be conducted through the Dalelands. But still, Anauorch is as treacherous as the Shadovar with many hidden threats as well besides the Shadovar, this I am sure the Shadovar are aware of the threats beneath and on the sands of Anauroch. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 01 Jul 2005 01:39:52 |
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Carion Hunter
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 01:43:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I agree with Forge.
Also, even if Tilverton isn't that "important" to Cormyr and the rest of the Realms, surely an army of Purple Dragons and 10000 Heartland Alliance mercenaries fighting against the Shade Enclave should draw more than enough attention.
Pardon my asking, I know the Shadovar has at least a 3000 strong military but it seemed unlikely that they would sent all 3000 to fight at Tilverton. So how many Shadovar troops were present in Tilverton at that time of the battle? |
Wanna throw me out? You gotta think thrice about that. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 03:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point is that people tend to be less concerned with major events when the event doesn't happen anywhere near them, and/or when they aren't directly affected.
Are Cormyreans going to care that a Cormyrean town got nuked? Yes, they are. But are they going to care as much as they would if Marsember got nuked? No, not by a long shot. Tilverton is distant, and not overly important to the kingdom. Thus, their reaction to its loss will be muted.
I think that the loss of a bunch of Purple Dragons would have more of an impact than the loss of the town. Not everyone knows someone from Tilverton, but everyone knows a Purple Dragon or several.
All good points.
As an additional consideration though, I'd just like to add the factor of communication in a "fantasy" kingdom. No doubt by the time most of the people in Cormyr heard about the destruction of Tilverton, the event itself had already occured several days before. So while some people may be initially shocked by the disaster, distant, as well as time, work hand in hand to lessen the "overall" scale and impact of the devastation.
Naturally this trend would also be influenced by how far a region in Cormyr is from Tilverton. Towns and cities immediately surrounding what was once Tilverton will have heard about, or even seen it occur, the attack just after it had happened -- thus, their feelings and opinions on the matter will be strong indeed.
In comparison, Cormyrean assets in the Storm Horns probably offer nothing more than a passing prayer for the souls of those innocents caught in the attack on Tilverton. It is not they these Cormyreans don't care or empathise with the poor inhabitants of Tilverton, it is rather that the Cormyreans active in the Storm Horns have other more immediate things on their minds that must concern them. For example, Zhentish aggression from Darkhold and/or monstrous creatures filtering through the region looking to lay waste to the Forest Kingdom's assest in the Storm Horns.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 03:57:18
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As a belated response to Wooly's coment, if Marsember had been "nuked" the crown might have considered it a mixed blessing, lol.
As far as the force that the Shadovar sent, do we know that the entire force was actual Shades, or did they use some of their slave forces? I can't remember much except for Vangey and Galeron fighting Rivalen and the "matter/anti-matter moment" with the weave light artifact. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 07:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Carion Hunter
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I agree with Forge.
Also, even if Tilverton isn't that "important" to Cormyr and the rest of the Realms, surely an army of Purple Dragons and 10000 Heartland Alliance mercenaries fighting against the Shade Enclave should draw more than enough attention.
Pardon my asking, I know the Shadovar has at least a 3000 strong military but it seemed unlikely that they would sent all 3000 to fight at Tilverton. So how many Shadovar troops were present in Tilverton at that time of the battle?
I don't think the army that the Shadovar sent was too large, as their main goal was to capture Galaeron and just disrupt the Heartland Alliance. They were using a stealthy approach and using the shadows to their advantage. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 09:26:24
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perhaps there´s another aspect that should be considered when trying to appraise cormyrean mentality about tilverton:
tilverton is (compared with cormyrs ancient history) a very young "acquisition"; it was occupied only a few years ago. before that, iirc (don´t have fr adventures in front of me), it was just a muddy village of sheperds, a small market town with not even a number of stone buildings worth mentioning.
then, cormyr takes over and builds a city wall, new streets, declares that new houses have to be built with stone, establishes a proper administration, city guards and so on. and after a few years, the former town of cattle-breeders develops into a real city.
i imagine cormyreans must have been very proud of that accomplishment ("look what we´ve done: in only a blink of an eye, we´ve grown this muddy place into a proper town!"). i think to most cormyreans, tilverton is an example of how capable their country is.
a few long sighted people (nobles, war wizards, merchants, purple dragon commanders...) might see it as the first step to extending true authority over the stonelands, and even as a lure to entice the near dales into joining the forest kingdom or as a bridgehead for future military advanced into that dales.
in short: tilverton could be far from being "this distant spot somewhere on our border". |
Edited by - tauster on 01 Jul 2005 09:29:12 |
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Tilverton
