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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2023 : 20:04:58
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Great Reader Ayrik! Welcome!
No sweat at all. I was replying back to Master Rupert about my discussion with Ed personally regarding the Emerald Enclave being evil and having a very high deathcount, that was ultimately confirmed by Ed. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Oops. I just noticed this is a necro scroll.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2023 : 23:15:43
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Okay, fine, I will concede they've had quite the bodycount over a large span of time.
This still does not prove your original point. You've cited the bodycount as proof that "they delight in murdering entire towns".
You have proven neither murder, nor delight in it, nor even the slaughter of entire towns.
And seriously, this was three freaking years ago. Let it go, man. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2023 : 02:22:45
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Master Rupert,
Great to hear from you! :)
quote:
This still does not prove your original point. You've cited the bodycount as proof that "they delight in murdering entire towns".
I must say, my sarcastic point in that regard is ill-suited to the point I was making overall. In light of my earnest efforts to show the Emerald Enclave for who they really are, morally/ethically, to have a sarcastic and colloquial term statement (they delight in murdering towns) doesn't help. I agree there is nothing to demonstrate the enjoyment of the murdering they have committed.
quote:
Okay, fine, I will concede they've had quite the bodycount over a large span of time.
Fair enough.
quote:
You have proven neither murder, nor delight in it, nor even the slaughter of entire towns.
As to murder, let's take a look at that definition:
quote:
Murder occurs when one human being unlawfully kills another human being.
- https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder
Let's now look at the definition of killing:
quote:
killed; killing; kills
Synonyms of kill
transitive verb
1a: to deprive of life
b: (1): to slaughter (an animal) for food
(2): to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering
Juxtaposing those two different word's definitions against one another speaks to the intent.
What was the intent of cleansing an entire town?
Why did the Emerald Enclave show up with wizards to push the Turmish wizard into the volcano to his doom, when all he was attempting to do was prevent the end of his civilizations?
What was the reason that, "...they've had quite the bodycount over a large span of time?"
That seems like a lot of justification that must be necessary to make all of those instances of ending lives only killing and not murdering.
Thoughts on that?
quote:
And seriously, this was three freaking years ago. Let it go, man.
I consider this to have been a fantastic argument that had some great points made throughout, and loved your input on it all throughout Master Rupert! :)
It's why I love necro-scrolls so much: a truly good argument knows no age! Ask any philosopher studying Plato, Socrates, and others! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2023 : 03:31:45
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You've not proven murder or unlawfulness, and as I said years ago, this "cleansing an entire town" thing that you keep harping on is entirely without context -- we don't know what happened there. Maybe it was murder, maybe it was self-defense. We don't know.
(Also, I note that you're upgrading the place from a startup community to a town.)
So my thoughts are as they were before: until you present evidence backing your assertions, there's no point in discussing it. Especially years later. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2023 : 23:16:37
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Master Rupert! Good afternoon!
I bring fair tidings from the vaunted halls of Ed Greenwood's glorious lore library, as he responded to my questions as a follow up! :) I will have my original questions quoted, then Ed's response after that. Enjoy! :)
quote:
You've not proven murder or unlawfulness, and as I said years ago, this "cleansing an entire town" thing that you keep harping on is entirely without context -- we don't know what happened there. Maybe it was murder, maybe it was self-defense. We don't know.
My question #1 for clarification:
quote:
I'm hoping to get a better understanding of what exactly was happening in some Emerald Enclave situations regarding text from the Vilhon Reach accessory. It was written that,
"That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."(Vilhon Reach, p.17)"
What kind of violence and ruthlessness beyond what I could find in the Vilhon Reach accessory led to the Emerald Enclaves activities being as legendary as the plagues of the Reach?
Ed's response to question #1:
quote:
“What kind of violence and ruthlessness beyond what I could find in the Vilhon Reach accessory led to the Emerald Enclaves activities being as legendary as the plagues of the Reach?”
Certain Enclave operatives taking the time to interrogate neighbours of foes, as well as the foes themselves, to thoroughly learn family trees so they could travel around the Realms and wipe out every last relative, to make certain no feuds nor vengeance-seekers might pop up in the future.
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every last relative???!!! LOL Ummmm...........unless you're going to argue that every member of the entire family tree had a "justifiable reason" for being "killed", then I think you're on pretty shaky ground here Master Rupert. ;) I would love to read your rebuttal against what Ed wrote though. :)
My question #2 for clarification:
quote:
"That last part seems to implicate the Enclave in choices of ending lives not only upon their viewpoints, but to control other viewpoints by implicitly threatening any future individuals seeking to prevent catastrophic explosions of Mt. Kolimnis. Is that the case?"
Ed's response to question #2
quote:
It is. It’s a classic case of “don’t oppose us, we understand things and you don’t; if you did understand you’d not thwart or criticize us, but you’re not of us and therefore not worthy of an explanation, so trust us—and if you don’t, die.”
My question #3 for clarification
quote:
"My reading of this initially was that "cleansing" was chosen to indicate a complete wipe out or annihilation of the population of said startup community. Is that the case? If so, was it justified by the Enclave and seen as nothing more than murder by most others, or something else?"
Ed's response to questions #3
quote:
Yes, complete extermination. Seen as justified by the Enclave, but murder by most others.
______________________
Let's take a looksy down the line here...........:
1) Murder, check. Oh, except by the Emerald Enclave, who........committed the murder. I forget, do people when they've committed murder get to simply declare that it was killing and not murder, and walk away? Generally speaking, no, no they don't.
2) Cleansings of the town = wholesale extermination = murder. Don't take my word for it, let's double check what Ed said, "Yes, complete extermination. Seen as justified by the Enclave, but murder by most others."
As to your point regarding the upgrading of the startup community to a town, legitimately my bad, and I thank you for the correction. Being concise matters, as definitions matter, and you were of course, right to point it out: thank you. It was a colloquial reference, but it shouldn't have been.
Good to see I wasn't crazy at least.......... Especially years later. ;)
Best regards, and I fervently look forward to your response regarding Ed's clarifications. :) :) :)
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 00:51:11
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1) Okay, I'll concede that hunting down family members of foes would be murder. But that's still a far cry from your assertions of tens of thousands of murders, joyfully committed.
2) Gosh, a bunch of druids threatening people to keep them from causing widespread death and destruction by blowing up a volcano? How sinister!  You'd think a murderous bunch of druids would be all for that -- maybe they're not so murderous?
3) Seen by murder by others doesn't mean it was murder. We still don't have the circumstances of the situation, but it's logical to assume that if the Enclave felt they needed to wipe out a small community, obviously that community was some sort of threat and wasn't backing down from what they were doing.
And it's not at all uncommon for the friends and loved ones of a slain person to feel that person was murdered, even if the slain person was the aggressor and the killer was acting in self-defense.
So yeah, we've got some murders, but nothing on the scale that you've been painting. You're still acting on limited information and projecting your own opinions onto it, and you're still making a point of digging up and following up on a years-old argument that I've said REPEATEDLY that I want no part of.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, NEVER bring this up again unless you get something more than assumptions to back up your unsupported conclusions. I was done with this years ago.  |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 01:17:09
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Master Rupert,
Good to hear from you! Thanks for the quick response! :)
quote:
Okay, I'll concede that hunting down family members of foes would be murder. But that's still a far cry from your assertions of tens of thousands of murders, joyfully committed.
Conveniently leaving out all family members in the entire family tree as well as the neigbour's of said people, is a lot of people. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but not your facts. :)
quote:
2) Gosh, a bunch of druids threatening people to keep them from causing widespread death and destruction by blowing up a volcano? How sinister! You'd think a murderous bunch of druids would be all for that -- maybe they're not so murderous?
That's a misrepresentation, intended or not, of the facts. The druids were not threatening people to keep them from causing widespread death and destruction BY blowing up a volcano, they were going to LET the volcano blow up, against the efforts of the wizard. What Ed clarified was that the druids threatened people to not get involved in things they didn't understand. In taking that choice upon themselves, and murdering Danirro, they became the judge, jury and executioner of a man who was simply trying to stop a Mt. Kolimnis from blowing up.
quote:
3) Seen by murder by others doesn't mean it was murder. We still don't have the circumstances of the situation, but it's logical to assume that if the Enclave felt they needed to wipe out a small community, obviously that community was some sort of threat and wasn't backing down from what they were doing.
LOL........ok Master Rupert. Sure, some people might not see it that way but what Ed said specifically was, "murder by MOST people."
Hmmm...........let's see what that definition means, shall we? :)
Definition of most:
most
adjective
#712;m#333;st
Synonyms of most
1: greatest in quantity, extent, or degree the most ability
2: the majority of most people
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most
Hmmm.......the greatest in quantity, or the majority of most people. Wow, the majority of most people. Huh. That's a lot. Looks like that would be a negative ghost rider, the pattern is full. ;)
quote:
And it's not at all uncommon for the friends and loved ones of a slain person to feel that person was murdered, even if the slain person was the aggressor and the killer was acting in self-defense.
Asked and answered counsel! ;)
quote:
So yeah, we've got some murders, but nothing on the scale that you've been painting. You're still acting on limited information and projecting your own opinions onto it, and you're still making a point of digging up and following up on a years-old argument that I've said REPEATEDLY that I want no part of.
Some? Let's look at that definition, shall we? :)
Definition of some:
some
adjective
#712;s#601;m for sense 2 without stress
Synonyms of some
1: being an unknown, undetermined, or unspecified unit or thing some person knocked
2a: being one, a part, or an unspecified number of something (such as a class or group) named or implied some gems are hard
b: being of an unspecified amount or number give me some water have some apples
Hmmm...........it's odd.... when I juxtapose most versus some, it seems that one says the majority of most people, and the other says, some unspecified amount, yet Ed just said most. I think it is pretty clear there. :)
Asked and answered counsel! ;)
quote:
Please, for the love of all that is holy, NEVER bring this up again unless you get something more than assumptions to back up your unsupported conclusions. I was done with this years ago.
Master Rupert, I can see the revelations from Ed have facilitated some degree of umbrage as they have unveiled my being starkly correct in these aforementioned situations.
Though I stand profoundly correct, as if the Binder himself were speaking into my ear, I shall ensure that on this topic alone, I will consider the matter settled ala Ed by his lore conveyances today. :) I'll make sure we can do some deep dives going forward though on some of those other lore questions we've been confronted with that remain fully unsettled. :)
Best regards Master Rupert!
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 01:21:57
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| Yes, yes, you're right. You're quite a genius. It's truly astounding how smart and more knowledgeable you are than all the other scribes here on Candlekeep. Why, we should rename this CPT keep! Congratulations! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 05:02:54
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Great Reader Ravenheart,
A pleasant evening to you! Thanks for relying.
quote:
Yes, yes, you're right. You're quite a genius. It's truly astounding how smart and more knowledgeable you are than all the other scribes here on Candlekeep. Why, we should rename this CPT keep! Congratulations
Oh gods above... while I appreciate the thoughtful comment: moderate intellect guy here, at best, and I'm just trying not to self abuse too much here.
I only felt it right to come on back and simply convey what I discovered by good fortune.
Wrapping up a solid three year debate is a rare and wonderful thing, regardless of the outcome.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 05:38:24
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Master Azar,
A good evening to you!
quote:
He is back.
Yes, after a hiatus, I have returned. All manner of insanity work-wise, and life-wise over the last few years, as of course, everyone had I am certain of it.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 18:11:36
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| Many are the addled who, not realizing their state, prattle until all accept what they say out of sheer terror at facing yet another unrelenting barrage of obtuse "wisdom/knowledge" centered upon a fragile ego which can't be wrong lest they be forced to face their true reality. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 18:44:33
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Great Reader Darden,
It's great to see you replying in this scroll. I hope the day is treating you well!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 19:46:07
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| Does it go "he who speaks most and last has said least most often" or some other way? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 20:09:19
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Great Reader Darden,
You know, I've heard that quote, but I can't place who said it. I'll have to go research that! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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controversy
