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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 23:20:44
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| Heh. I'm not much impressed by either Seiveril or his character development. Araevin at least has an emotional scene on the boat, as well as a life-changing decision near the end of the book. Seiveril doesn't really seem to have anything similar to offset the usual stiffness. In any case, the "good stuff" exists in bits and pieces when there should have been more. The fact that I say Araevin is the deepest character really isn't saying that much--it's kind of like saying a frying pan is deeper than a dinner plate. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2005 : 19:05:01
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The character study thread on Catti-brie inspired me to bring back an issue I mentioned earlier: Ilsevele, and this time I'll go at it with a finer knife. She reminds me so, so very strongly of Catti-brie and Danica, who are pulled from the same box of stock type cliches... type, anyway.
On page nine, we get the first mention of her in the following terms:
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In truth, Araevin had found that he had become accustomed to being apart from his betrothed. Despite the months they'd traveled together earlier in the year, they had spent years away from each other during their two decades of engagement.
And this is what I meant when I said, with regard to both books in the trilogy, that Araevin seems to care about the horses he rides more than he cares about Ilsevele. Is this bad writing, or is it -- as Rinonalyrna Fathomlin brought up at one point -- a suggestion that the couple has deluded themselves into thinking that they are in love? If such is the case, why then are the rest of the characters equally stiff in their relationship dynamics? Are they all robots, or are they, too, deluded into thinking that they like their friends and family? But moving on to page 33...
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Araevin turned at the words, and found himself looking on the face of his betrothed, the beautiful Lady Ilsevele Miritar. She was a sun elf like he, but she was much fairer than he was -- in both senses of the word -- with a radiant mane of copper-red hair and green eyes. She wore a tunic of green suede over cream-colored trousers, bloused into high leather boots decorated with tiny gold thread patterns. A slender long sword was sheathed at her hip.
Info-dump. No, really. If I see something like this in a fanfic or something somebody has sent me for editing (yes, people have, strangely enough), I'd have red-lined this told him/her to try and incorporate a character's descriptions into the narrative a lot more gracefully, and that appearance should never be given attention before personality. (Show how the character acts first, then go on about the color of her hair or eyes. Who cares what she's wearing, anyway? Is the fact that her clothing is cream-colored and made of suede relevant to her characterization? To the plot? Is it even an interesting detail? 'Cause the color of someone's clothes strikes me as prosaic as they come. And this is sequel to "perhaps the best-written Realms novel yet." Uhhhm. Okay, it's got good grammar and spelling?) By the way, I'd probably have also e-slapped said author for using "mane" for hair. Well, at least she doesn't have "orbs" for eyes.
But, to stay on the same vein, since this is from Araevin's (limited third-person) perspective -- unless I'm mistaken and it's omniscient third-person, in which case there's a whole 'nother, bigger issue -- am I to take that Araevin is a shallow dolt, contrary to being described as "intelligent", particularly when Maresa's appearance is the first thing described when he meets her again, as well?
Alternatively, is it that the author feels obliged to info-dump characters' appearance everywhere, which to me, makes for clunky and awkward prose that values how pretty someone's eyes are over how interesting he or she is?
On page 37, we have--
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Whether it was the wine, the dancing, or simply the hidden relief of having survived their trials of the past month, they made love for a time.
I'd like to challenge anyone to find a description of two people having sex that's more perfunctory. This reads like they do it out of obligation rather than desire, and while I'm hardly asking for "Dear Penthouse" explicitness, I find myself hard-pressed to think that these two people even remotely enjoy each other in bed. It's like something they do as a part of their schedule. "To-do list: buy grocery, arrange spell comp., shag betrothed b/f she gets v. pissed." And pissed she would likely get, too, since--
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Ilsevele stood too, and said, “I will come with you, then.”
“There is no need. I’m not sure how much you could help, to be honest. I’m not entirely sure what I’m looking for.”
Ilsevele’s eyes narrowed. “I remind you, my beloved, that I know a little bit about magic too. Besides, I have nothing else in particular to do today, and I might like a chance to look around a fine library for my own account, not yours.”
He winced. “I did not mean to imply that you were unable to help me,” he managed. “I would enjoy your company if you wanted to come along.”
Ilsevele crossed her arms. “I find that less than convincing.”
What am I supposed to make of this little exchange?
1) It's good writing, again to hint that their relationship has never been genuine, and is now nearing the point where it falls apart. I'm afraid that I remain unconvinced of this, but hey, it's a possibility.
2) Ilsevele falls into that "strong female character" category where she gets defensive whenever someone, particularly a male, dares suggest that she is less than equal to -- nay, better than -- he is. Complete with arm-crossing reminescent of Robert Jordan's female spoiled brats characters; I wonder if Ilsevele will start tugging her hair and sniffing any time soon?
Either way, she doesn't come across as "fair" (as the narrative describes her). She comes across as an obnoxious little bint who takes offense over the most trivial things imaginable; in other word, a henpecking female dog. Araevin's seeming inclination to not have her along, and then his fast backpedaling to appease her, seems to support this idea.
Page 52:
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She gave him one final sharp glance, and strode stiffly out of the reading room.
This concludes their argument regarding the Nightstar's evil nature and Araevin's insistence on using it with "It's just a tool" logic. While I think Ilsevele's arguments about the risks involved have plenty of merits, the way she expresses them makes her seem intolerably self-righteous.
My point is that, while Araevin seems to perceive her as clever, fair (in character as well as in looks), and so on, she seems to be anything but. It is the same disparity that exists between Catti's actual actions and how she is described, and I can't help but think that Catti and Ilsevele are pulled from the same box of stock type fulfill a very similar role: Designated Love Interest. (Who doesn't exist outside admiring the male romantic interest and behaving like a bossy shrew occasionally to assert her "strong female characterness.") |
Edited by - Winterfox on 21 Dec 2005 19:15:08 |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2005 : 22:34:07
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What if the lack of development is due to the idea that elves don't develop over months. They develop over decades. We're not seeing development because we're not seeing a big enough span of life here.
Just one possible interpretation. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 23 Dec 2005 22:34:34 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2005 : 17:51:45
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| I'm not arguing that it's an invalid interpretation, but my problem with the two books released thus far doesn't stop with the abject lack of character development. It's the fact that the characters feel, to me, incredibly paper-thin, have personalities that aren't all that impressive, and act like people who know they're in a novel (and reluctant to play along, at that, rather like bad actors. Or sockpuppets). That can't be explained by the fact that they're elves. Nor, for that matter, can the disconnect between Ilsevele's actual actions and the way she's described by the author and perceived by other characters. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 24 Dec 2005 17:52:12 |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2006 : 23:59:41
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Did Aeravin learn parts of the nether scrolls?!?!?!?
I just reread the fight scene between Saetheril and Aeravin and after he mentions how the knowledge of Aryvandaar was on golden scrolls that shifted with power..... um i think some highmage definately read the nether scrolls and then Aeravin learned stuff from them from the high mage's memory!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 107 of Volo's Guide to All Things Magical says:
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The key was held by a strange sentinel of the Outlands, known only as the Gatekeeper, who guarded a nexus of gates to a thousand planes and spheres.
I guess then he means Myth Sigil! 
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Originally posted by Foxhelm
I think the Mythral is being used as a leash. If they try to run, Sarya sees this and can force them back to Myth Drannor. Also I think it is implied that the Mythral could be used to make things worse for the devils, demons and 'loths. Like binding of powers or weaking them.
Holding that much power might make the fiends co-operate... for now!
its MYTHAL not mythral... sry but reading your posts with mythral were upsetting me 
btw
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Originally posted by Foxhelm
I would like to mention that it might not be Sarya that are controlling the Fiends perhaps some ARCHevil is controlling them? Perhaps some of the Devils in Myth Dranner have been working under this evil, preparing the way for it's subvertion. Perhaps it links with the Last Mythral mentioned in the Last Chapter of the Book before the Epilogue.
they were yugoloths not devils that attacked myth drannor.
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But what's really absurd is just how easily the daemonfey took over Myth Drannor. So easy, apparently, there were barely more than a few sentences there to describe it. Apparently, the only real trouble came from dispatching a few errant adventuring parties.
Yeah, right. If it were so easy to take over Myth Drannor, how come no one up until now has ever managed to do it before?
umm bc no one had a huge army of demons before?? bc the drow werent aout to be stupid and get slaughtered by the fiends? bc no one wants to deal witha n ancient mythal? bc sarya might have some connection with the city bc house dlardrageth had a compound there! on teh east side (according to cormanthyr!) |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2006 : 04:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
quote:
But what's really absurd is just how easily the daemonfey took over Myth Drannor. So easy, apparently, there were barely more than a few sentences there to describe it. Apparently, the only real trouble came from dispatching a few errant adventuring parties.
Yeah, right. If it were so easy to take over Myth Drannor, how come no one up until now has ever managed to do it before?
umm bc no one had a huge army of demons before?? bc the drow werent aout to be stupid and get slaughtered by the fiends? bc no one wants to deal witha n ancient mythal? bc sarya might have some connection with the city bc house dlardrageth had a compound there! on teh east side (according to cormanthyr!)
None of those are relevant points. The demonic army had already been removed from the equation, when the fey'ri lost Myth Glaurach. The drow had been working for years to make a presence in the city -- they'd not simply step aside for someone else, even if the opposing force was more powerful. And unless Sarya was part of the raising of the mythal, until she got into the city and got Malkizid's instructions, she couldn't effect the mythal. And that mythal had been failing for years, and that hadn't stopped anyone else from flocking to the city after its fall.
Myth Drannor was occupied by phaerimm, baelnorn, baddies from the Lower Planes, dragons, groups of adventurers, at least one insane lich, lingering magical wards and effects, and a whole bunch of other nasty critters and things. There is no way that 1000 fey'ri could casually brush all of that aside, unless they were all seriously high level. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2006 : 05:14:19
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the demon army is exactly the feyri thats what i had meant by that. and yes the drow would have stepped aside bc otherwise they would have been killed! If the baelnorn hadn't done anything about the demon presence in myth drannor for over 5 centuries almost 6 then I don't really think they're going to start doing anything now. Alot of the baddies of the lwoer planes would join the demon army. the others would finally be put to rest. And enough of teh mythal is active to be lethal in some regards which would have deterred previous people from trying to set anything up here (other would be conquerors wouldn't have been able to attempt to alter the mythal.
I dont really believe that the phaerimm were that much of a problem... otherwise how would a normal group of drow or adventures venture into it.
anyhow her domination of the city doesnt have be complete to be as successful. she could occupy some parts and still have control over it.
and i believe her ARMY of feyri was more than 1000 and yes they were high level bc all were versed soldiers as well as spellcasters!
Myth Drannor isn't as unified a force as some would believe. It is full of factions none of which would singly be able to take Sarya out... none of which would band together to fight her and none of which would be stupid enough to face her forces piece-meal.
so i think those are all valid arguments |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2006 : 05:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
the demon army is exactly the feyri thats what i had meant by that. and yes the drow would have stepped aside bc otherwise they would have been killed! If the baelnorn hadn't done anything about the demon presence in myth drannor for over 5 centuries almost 6 then I don't really think they're going to start doing anything now. Alot of the baddies of the lwoer planes would join the demon army. the others would finally be put to rest. And enough of teh mythal is active to be lethal in some regards which would have deterred previous people from trying to set anything up here (other would be conquerors wouldn't have been able to attempt to alter the mythal.
There was only a thousand fey'ri. That's been pretty explicitly stated.
When have the drow ever been known to meekly back down? At the very least, they'd have pulled a fast fade and then went guerilla.
The lower planar baddies would not necessarily go rushing to join the fey'ri. They don't work together -- why would they rush to join someone who's only part demon?
The baelnorn didn't worry with the demons and such all that much before, 'tis true. But the demons were single, isolated entities, despite the fact there was a good number of them. An occupying army of folks who have betrayed their elven blood is an entirely different story.
Yes, the mythal is lethal. And that cuts two ways: if it's so lethal to keep others out, why did it not affect the fey'ri?
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
I dont really believe that the phaerimm were that much of a problem... otherwise how would a normal group of drow or adventures venture into it.
By keeping a low profile, and by not being an occupying army. Occupying armies tend to be rather noticable, particularly when they're in your front yard.
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
anyhow her domination of the city doesnt have be complete to be as successful. she could occupy some parts and still have control over it.
It was pretty much explicitly said that she controlled the entire city.
And either way, even occupying a good chunk of it is a grand accomplishment.
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
and i believe her ARMY of feyri was more than 1000 and yes they were high level bc all were versed soldiers as well as spellcasters!
Nope, it's been stated they were only a thousand strong, roughly. And when I say high level, I mean at least 10th. Sure, she had a lot of soldiers and spellflingers -- but if they were that powerful, they'd have not been routed.
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
Myth Drannor isn't as unified a force as some would believe. It is full of factions none of which would singly be able to take Sarya out... none of which would band together to fight her and none of which would be stupid enough to face her forces piece-meal.
Who said Myth Drannor was unified? When you've got the kind of pure nastiness crawling around that Myth Drannor did, it doesn't matter if it's unified or not. Here you are, trying to battle some angry phaerimmm... A bunch of drow see what's going on, and decide that a nice flanking attack will take out some fey'ri... Then a dragon wakes up, and wants to torch everyone just to shut them up... Then Druth Daern wanders by and fireballs everyone just for the sake of it...
Go stand in a large anthill. Those ants are hardly fighting in a unified manner, but you'll be retreating before they do.
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Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
so i think those are all valid arguments
Nope. If it was so easy to take over the city, why didn't it happen before now? You think that none of the Dalesfolk ever turned their thoughts in that direction? You think the Zhents and Thayans were happy to leave all that magic sitting around for someone else to claim? You think the elves that lived in the surrounding area for centuries shrugged their shoulders and said "Oh, well, the city fell. What's for lunch?"
It's unrealistic to say that various power groups -- some of whom had serious military, magical, and/or monetary resources -- didn't bother to take over the place if it was such a cakewalk that another group could waltz in at a moment's notice. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2006 : 10:41:22
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| For some reason, the scene in The Temtation of Elminster pops to mind, of the adventurers in Myth Drannor, getting ripped to shreds by a seeminly endless supply of fiends . . . I don't think any of the things that have happened are impossible to describe, but I do think that too much of it is becoming . . . "the explanation will be in another book." |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2006 : 19:01:35
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-Drow aren;t going to hastily ambush their halfdemon betters. they are patient and cunning.
-demons have nothing ebtter to do than join her to unleash chaos and evil into teh surrounding lands.
- the zhents and thayans only see the vlue of myth drannor as its hoardes of magic trinkets... so its not worth risking the demons adn elves as well as tehir usual enemies. Sarya however could bend the mythal to her will as well as holding the magic treasures. AND it has a personal connection because of her heritage! her enemies are already teh elves so she has nothing to lose by taking the city. so basically, myth drannor hasn't been taken bc humans are less powerful than her soldiers... and bc the humans dont see as much value in doing so. 1 feyri is vastly more powerful than a group of humans!! so her army of 1000 is the equivalent of a vastly larger group of humans! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2006 : 23:05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
-Drow aren;t going to hastily ambush their halfdemon betters. they are patient and cunning.
Patient and cunning, indeed... Patient and cunning enough to have put up quite a fight and/or otherwise made things difficult. But they didn't -- and that's where the problem lies. And betters? Since when does a drow acknowledge any elven race as being better than drow?
Level adjustment for a drow is +2. Level adjustment for a fey'ri is +2, unless you select specific abilities, which bump it up to +3. That's a minor difference, not a major one. So while some fey'ri are slightly superior to drow, not all of them are.
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
-demons have nothing ebtter to do than join her to unleash chaos and evil into teh surrounding lands.
And the demons knew, on sight, that she was going to unleash them to do that? You're speaking of critters that happily unleash chaos and evil on any creature they see -- which would include fey'ri. Oh, and if they're so into chaos, why are they lining up to join someone who is going to order them around, instead of going it alone?
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
- the zhents and thayans only see the vlue of myth drannor as its hoardes of magic trinkets... so its not worth risking the demons adn elves as well as tehir usual enemies. Sarya however could bend the mythal to her will as well as holding the magic treasures. AND it has a personal connection because of her heritage! her enemies are already teh elves so she has nothing to lose by taking the city. so basically, myth drannor hasn't been taken bc humans are less powerful than her soldiers... and bc the humans dont see as much value in doing so. 1 feyri is vastly more powerful than a group of humans!! so her army of 1000 is the equivalent of a vastly larger group of humans!
Zhents and Thayans are all about the acquisition of power. If taking over Myth Drannor was the cakewalk you seem to think it would be, then both groups would have taken over the city several times over.
Just because someone once lived in Myth Drannor, or is related to someone who did, it doesn't mean they have a personal connection to the mythal -- it doesn't work that way. The only way she could have had a connection with the mythal, prior to entering the city, was if she had helped raise it -- which she didn't. Therefore, there is no personal connection. None. Her heritage is absolutely irrelevant in this particular case.
Nothing to lose by taking the city? Let's see, spending your forces to conquer a city full of baddies, being surrounded by enemies, being tied down in a location that has no real defenses beyond the mythal, and which is relatively well-known... Nothing to lose? She's got everything, including her own life, to lose.
And at most, the average fey'ri will be superior to only three average humans. Three. Not a group. And it's not vastly superior -- a fey'ri can still be taken down by a well-thrown dagger or a carefully aimed arrow.
The average fey'ri only has two real advantages: wings and the fact that most folks have no idea what a fey'ri is. Once the other side learns what the fey'ri are all about, it's only a matter of time until a superior force crushes them.
The fey'ri are not all-powerful. They're either on the same level as drow, or just a single step above. I'm not sure where this perceived massive superiority comes from, but the simple fact -- backed up by cold, hard numbers -- is that it does not exist.
You know what? The fey'ri are one of my favorite races. I love the concept of them, and I think they are a cool race, one that would be fun to play or even more fun to run as villains. I'm not bashing them or dismissing their abilities, here -- I'm being objective, and letting the existing facts tell me that the fey'ri are not dramatically superior to anyone else.
Perhaps we could leave off of this debate? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jan 2006 23:07:40 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 01:09:25
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I think Rich Baker is a good writer. City of Ravens and Condemnation were books that I really enjoyed, and while I have not read it (and can't find it) the worst I have heard about The Shadow Stone is that it was suppose to be a Birthright book originally. And for the most part I enjoyed the first book, and I have read far worse books than this one. That having been said, a couple points come to mind (yeah I know, I was the one a few pages back that was amazed we were still talking about this one). I think, in a way, as big as this story is, its been kind of an overload to tell the whole story and have it make sense. I think Rich may have slipped into his "Game Designer" mode and started writting the story as a sourcebook, mentioning that this this and this happened, and knowing that, for example, Lisa Smedman is writing a book abou Hallistra that might clear up the drow comment, so he doesn't need to explain that here.
And I know some of you aren't happy with them, but I like Flar and Seiveril, and I think they are more interesting, in many ways, than Araevin and his crew. All in all though, I am going to buy the next book. I just think that Rich might be sidestepping anything that might be complicated to explain, and sometimes its glaringly obvious that he is doing it (see my comments about book one re: Mithral Hall dwarves serving under Methrammar). |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 01:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
-Drow aren;t going to hastily ambush their halfdemon betters.
Because drow in general are so humble that they will "recognize" fey'ri as their "betters." Right.
quote:
-demons have nothing ebtter to do than join her to unleash chaos and evil into teh surrounding lands.
Uhm, what? Demons may be chaotic, but they aren't, you know, dumb. And most of them really don't like being used by mortals (unless they think or know they can turn around and kick said mortal's backside later), and Sarya is half-mortal. Her being half-tanar'ri isn't necessarily going to endear her to them any; tanar'ri fight amongst themselves all the time. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 21 Jan 2006 01:22:57 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 04:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
-Drow aren;t going to hastily ambush their halfdemon betters. they are patient and cunning.
Drow never see any mortal higher than them other than themselves except perhaps their patron deities. I don't think the drow would dip their heads to the fey'ri, the drow would rather be scoffing and laughing at them.
quote:
-demons have nothing ebtter to do than join her to unleash chaos and evil into teh surrounding lands.
Demons are chaotic evil by nature, reckless, tireless but not stupid either. Though they enjoy unleashing mayhem and destruction, demons never bow their heads to mortals, not even gods or their own demonlords with full sincerity and reverence. IMO, the demons under Sarya serve her grudgingly not because she is the daughter of a powerful tanar'ri lord(for even tanar'ri lords can be toppled overtime) but because she wields compentent magic that can be painful to them if they don't obey her commands and also they lack the power to fight with her one on one, second, at least they got promises on having some destruction and mayhem to partake which at least served to keep them in line (I don't think a demon would do "peaceful activities" even if forced to do so). Honestly, I say that the demons got better things to do such as fighting the devils and get more "recruits" than bow their heads to a half-demon.
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We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Rory
Seeker
79 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 22:12:50
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Drow did not come to Cormanthor to fight Sarya or a surface elf return. It would make sense for them to stand down and wait until the war is over and then deal with a dilapidated winner, unless they learn that Sarya has the ability to summon a ridiculous amount of demons and devils. In that case the surface elves may learn they have a temporary ally.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 01:10:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Rory
Drow did not come to Cormanthor to fight Sarya or a surface elf return. It would make sense for them to stand down and wait until the war is over and then deal with a dilapidated winner, unless they learn that Sarya has the ability to summon a ridiculous amount of demons and devils. In that case the surface elves may learn they have a temporary ally.
Indeed, it would make sense... But if the drow did things that made sense, they would have stopped killing each other, united, and conquered the Underdark. |
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old man
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 04:55:15
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There were an awful lot of devils in Myth Drannor prior to the fey'ri showing up. Now I know that demon spawn and devils shouldn't get along, that whole endless blood war thing, but with the arch-devil Malkizid(sp?) and Sarya working together wouldn't that make the devil/demon/demonspawn faction a little imposing. He is an arch devil right?
Maybe that's why the drow have been hiding out. Maybe they just need a little time to figure out just what's goin on. Maybe their waiting for the demons and devils to start picking each other off, then they can fight whoever's left? Maybe they're just gonna let the fairy elves do a bunch of fighting, and then pick them off too.
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 06:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by old man
There were an awful lot of devils in Myth Drannor prior to the fey'ri showing up. Now I know that demon spawn and devils shouldn't get along, that whole endless blood war thing, but with the arch-devil Malkizid(sp?) and Sarya working together wouldn't that make the devil/demon/demonspawn faction a little imposing. He is an arch devil right?
Malkezid was an exiled arch-duke of hell, called the Branded King. Malkizid alliance with Sarya is temporaily a alliance of convenience as they both have need of each other abilities, but once they had used each other to the fullest already, they are likely to turn on each other, whereby I am certain Sarya's subordinates would seize the chance if they are allowed to. For now, it is a alliance of convenience.
quote:
Maybe that's why the drow have been hiding out. Maybe they just need a little time to figure out just what's goin on. Maybe their waiting for the demons and devils to start picking each other off, then they can fight whoever's left? Maybe they're just gonna let the fairy elves do a bunch of fighting, and then pick them off too.
The drow would rather conserve their military strength and wait for the outcome, but if the winner in the end proves to be something they cannot handle, I doubt they would willingly take on the winner. For even before the coming of Sarya, Myth Drannor had been occupied by a dazzling host of monsters and cultists with opportunities for the drow to reap, and the drow still had not even attempt to drive the then occupants out. IMO, they would rather take on someone that they can easily put down than somebodu who can make mincemeat out of them. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 15:01:12
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| well seeing as the books have taken only a couple of months then I think it means that these problems might yet come to pass (drow taking sarya down, and fiends betraying fiends) |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 23:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I'm not arguing that it's an invalid interpretation, but my problem with the two books released thus far doesn't stop with the abject lack of character development. It's the fact that the characters feel, to me, incredibly paper-thin, have personalities that aren't all that impressive, and act like people who know they're in a novel (and reluctant to play along, at that, rather like bad actors. Or sockpuppets). That can't be explained by the fact that they're elves. Nor, for that matter, can the disconnect between Ilsevele's actual actions and the way she's described by the author and perceived by other characters.
I agree (and I liked your analysis of Ilsevele by the way ;) ). The human characters in these books come off no less stiff and robotic than the elven ones do, so I'm also not totally convinced that Ilsevele's stiffness comes from the fact that she is an elf. Same goes for--of course--my dear friend Araevin Teshurr. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Feb 2006 23:18:01 |
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dannyfu
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 06:15:14
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in reading these posts i have a quick question relating to rich baker's approach to handling the Returning thus far: it seems to me (again as i have mentioned in my welcoming post i am a new reader to the realms, only about 5 or 6 books under my belt)that the elves possible returning and refounding a kingdom/settlement/whatever, is a BIG deal in the realms from what i have grasped from reading the last mythal books and other elf related realms lore, so are these changes sanctioned by all realms creators/editors/whatever, before a lone author can do something like this? and do you think this will not conclude in the final book, leaving other authors to continue adding their bit to the idea of a Returning? i really enjoyed the first two books, but it seems to me "the final gate" would have to be like 700 pages to wrap it all up nicely. wow, so much for a "quick question" |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 23:58:30
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I am with KnightErrantJR with this one. I can't really get into the characters much, and a lot of background isn't being explained, but with the pacing of the story, it would be difficult to not turn each book into 500+ pages.
I am not sure what Rich Baker does, but he has .... something. As I said, I can't get into the main characters all that well, but I find myself eagerly awaiting the next book. He had me hooked and I think it is one of the better series I've read so far. (I have yet to read the latest trilogy by Lisa Smedman, or several others, too.) I am not sure if it is his pacing, his writing style, or what, but he has me hooked.
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 23:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
I am not sure what Rich Baker does, but he has .... something.
I think he can put together an interesting (if often far-fetched) plot. But the actual characters have no real life to them. As a reader I am left feeling like there is potential, but the author doesn't live up to it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 00:46:24
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What puzzles me is why his characters, in this trilogy, strike me as so robotic. Jack Ravenwild had a lot of zest and entertainment value to him, even if he wasn't exactly a three-dimensional character.
I guess there're too many characters in the Last Mythal novels? Heh. (And, agreed, Rinonalyrna Fathomlin -- there's so much unrealized potential in there.) |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 01:29:24
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| I don't see his characters as robotic...hell, he's not exactly Ed Greenwood |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 13:30:04
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| Well, that's your prerogative, of course. I've stated a multitude of reasons in my previous posts in this thread with regard to why I think the characters in Forsaken Hose and Farthest Reach have about as much life as unbaked dough. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 24 Feb 2006 13:30:40 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 14:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
What puzzles me is why his characters, in this trilogy, strike me as so robotic. Jack Ravenwild had a lot of zest and entertainment value to him, even if he wasn't exactly a three-dimensional character.
I guess there're too many characters in the Last Mythal novels? Heh. (And, agreed, Rinonalyrna Fathomlin -- there's so much unrealized potential in there.)
I felt the same way when I read Promise of the Witch-king, as a matter of fact. I saw numerous possibilities for character depth and interesting personal stories, but the author seemed almost reluctant to live up to that potential.
It made for a much less satisfying reading experience. And such is why I don't think the Last Mythal series is worthy of all the praise it seems to get. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 16:48:46
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| Slight revelation I had today - when Richard keeps pointing out that the air genasi is wearing red leather he's actually foreshadowing that she's going to turn on them! As can be evidenced here |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 24 Feb 2006 16:49:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 17:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Slight revelation I had today - when Richard keeps pointing out that the air genasi is wearing red leather he's actually foreshadowing that she's going to turn on them! As can be evidenced here
That, or she's an ECM (a now-universal Star Trek reference).
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 17:03:25
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I am totally serious when I say that Maresa's red armor must clash terribly with her pale skin and hair.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Farthest Reach (The Last Mythal Book II) Spoilers
