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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:58:31
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Alright, I know this will be a dumb statement to any of my fellow scribes well versed in the lore of the religeon of the Vigilant One, but one of my players has a cleric of Helm. I know that in general clerics of Helm are known as Watchers.
What other titles might a cleric accumulate. Faiths and Pantheons mentions that the church has a military hierachy and everyone knows their ranks in the church, but what would the official ranks be?
Also, I know that I saw the term Watchknight in Icewind Dale (the PC game) but I could have sworn that I saw it in printed lore as well, but I cannot find the reference in my sources (FRA, original FR grey box, 2e box set, FRCS, or Faiths and Pantheons). Does that pertain to a particular order of Helm's faithful, or was it a term much like Watcher, used as a generic address?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 04:22:20
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Lord-General
Steeleye
Knight Commander
High Knight of the Order of the Vigilant Eyes
" After the Time of Troubles, the church established more universal titles of rank yet many members of the clergy retain older, personal or variant titles with the blessings of Helm. "
I would need to dig more for rank and file, however the quote would appear to indicate would follow customs of standard milatary and chuch orders where the religion is the strongest.
I would guess Knight of ,foo> the losest fighter order , (not counting trainees) and Priest/ess for those of the reliious order. Of course allowing something like Knight Prist of the order of The TRUE and Trusted.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 04:31:25
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Where did you find those quotes Kentinal, I would love to peruse the source myself. Thanks for listing them! I would imagine that Hight Knight of the Order would be a fill in the blank type depending on the particular order that the cleric ended up in.
My player is thinking of picking up a few levels of paladin and perhaps becoming a member of the Vigilant Eyes of the Deity. I was just wondering what rank he might hold if he takes the "Initiate of Helm" feat, which would seem to indicate that he has acheived some degree of rank in the church.
Also, the monk in the campaign is also a worshiper of Helm, and has essentially become the cleric's bodyguard. I would assume that she would be a member of the Everwatch Knights, as she hired out as a body guard from the church before she ended up with the party, although a monk knight might seem a bit confusing, it seemed to fit with the backstory. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 08:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Alright, I know this will be a dumb statement to any of my fellow scribes well versed in the lore of the religeon of the Vigilant One, but one of my players has a cleric of Helm. I know that in general clerics of Helm are known as Watchers.
What other titles might a cleric accumulate. Faiths and Pantheons mentions that the church has a military hierachy and everyone knows their ranks in the church, but what would the official ranks be?
Also, I know that I saw the term Watchknight in Icewind Dale (the PC game) but I could have sworn that I saw it in printed lore as well, but I cannot find the reference in my sources (FRA, original FR grey box, 2e box set, FRCS, or Faiths and Pantheons). Does that pertain to a particular order of Helm's faithful, or was it a term much like Watcher, used as a generic address?
There's a 'Reverend Watcher' of Helm, Tonorak Winthrax, of the House of the Guardian in Iljak. In addition, a 'Dark Watcher' is what the faithful of Helm consider to be a traitor to the faith.
As for the actual titles though, the 2e tome Faiths & Avatars, has the complete listing which are (in ascending order of rank): Novice, Adept, Trusty, Alert, Watchknight, Guardian, Overblade, High Watcher, and Senior Steeleye (which is a title applied only to members of the senior Helmite clergy).
I'm assuming that 'Reverend Watcher' is an informal title applicable only to the House of the Guardian, or is perhaps an adaptation of the more traditional 'High Watcher' title. 'Dark Watcher' seems official though, since it comes from Ed.
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Edited by - The Sage on 18 Jun 2005 08:06:51 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 17:07:18
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| I also included the titles that the NPC's have in my NPC file, at least for clerics. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 17:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Where did you find those quotes Kentinal, I would love to peruse the source myself. Thanks for listing them! I would imagine that Hight Knight of the Order would be a fill in the blank type depending on the particular order that the cleric ended up in.
http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/deities/helm.shtml there was not much else there on titles, IIRC entire page is 10k.
Yes I would indeed picture Order having different names
Knights of Silver Woods
and so on, some orders might have regional names, some might be of equipment.
Knights of the Holy Sword
and so on, not sure if the webpage is fully canon though it appears to fit your seach. I am sure that my proposed orders are not canon, but perhaps I got lucky. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 02:20:04
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| Ever since I have "returned" to the Realms after my hiatus, I have heard a resounding chorus appriasing me of the fact that the worst thing that I could have missed in 2nd Edition products was Faiths and Avatars, and once again I seem to be presented with evidence to support this. That particular tome has remained elusive to me. But thank you for your information, now I at least know where Watchknight comes from, and I also know I was validated in my suspicion that it was not a title that a 4th level cleric of Helm would have aquired. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 02:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
and so on, not sure if the webpage is fully canon though it appears to fit your seach. I am sure that my proposed orders are not canon, but perhaps I got lucky.
Most of the source material seems to match the basic interpretation of what has been written about Helm's clergy in both F&A and F&P.
Although, this site appears to be a derivative of the FR so some of the information is likely fan-generated.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 02:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Ever since I have "returned" to the Realms after my hiatus, I have heard a resounding chorus appriasing me of the fact that the worst thing that I could have missed in 2nd Edition products was Faiths and Avatars, and once again I seem to be presented with evidence to support this. That particular tome has remained elusive to me. But thank you for your information, now I at least know where Watchknight comes from, and I also know I was validated in my suspicion that it was not a title that a 4th level cleric of Helm would have aquired.
You'd certainly do yourself credit to try and track this tome down. A lot of scribes here, myself included, consider F&A part of the great triad of FR god books -- along with Power & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities.
You could try Noble Knight for a copy of F&A. Kuje put me onto them a while back, and I've been extremely happy with both the service and level of professionalism that the team there have demonstrated time and again on my purchases.
Here's the link:- http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetailSearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_2241_A_InventoryID_E_-1296312903_A_ProductLineID_E__A_ManufacturerID_E__A_CategoryID_E__A_GenreID_E_
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Edited by - The Sage on 19 Jun 2005 02:38:29 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 02:43:13
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| You guys have been great, thanks for the info. Its really funny, when Glen first told me that he was going to run a cleric of Helm I wondered why specifically Helm, but the more research I have been doing (so that I can do justice to the church he belongs to, the NPCs, etc.) the more interesting the church of Helm gets. DMing can definately be rewarding, lol. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 06:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You'd certainly do yourself credit to try and track this tome down. A lot of scribes here, myself included, consider F&A part of the great triad of FR god books -- along with Power & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities.
I myself swear by those books -- Faiths & Pantheons is but a pale shadow of its three predecessors. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 12:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I myself swear by those books -- Faiths & Pantheons is but a pale shadow of its three predecessors.
Indeed, even a PDF copy of those three tomes is better than a book copy of F&P. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 16:06:45
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| This all looks really good."Never betray trust. That is the way of the vigilant one". Helm was the first FR god that I fell for. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 13:09:51
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There is also a Vigilant Master in the North (Sundabar?). Some of the titles within Helm's clergy seem to be 'unique' and 'unofficial', at least among High Priests.
In one of our campaigns, a paladin/cleric of Helm chose the 'honorary' title of 'Glorious Guardian' (in addition to his High Watcher-status ;)
There must be many Vigilant Knights or Watchful Masters, for example, around the Realms  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 14:13:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Some of the titles within Helm's clergy seem to be 'unique' and 'unofficial', at least among High Priests.
Indeed. As I said about the 'Reverend Watcher' title earlier. It's probably a standard technique among most clergies of many deities.
For example, while the Helmite church listing in F&A is considered to be a part of the faithful's method of organisation, those titles are likely just a basic standard. Helmite temples in other regions across the Realms may be influenced by some various cultural influences when referring to members of their church, reflecting how the unique environment these temples have grown up in have influenced the church itself.
The title of 'Reverend Watcher' may be a popular title for High Helmites of the clergies in Chondath, but may not be used or even recognised in Helmite temples elsewhere.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 14:49:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Originally posted by Asgetrion
Indeed. As I said about the 'Reverend Watcher' title earlier. It's probably a standard technique among most clergies of many deities.
For example, while the Helmite church listing in F&A is considered to be a part of the faithful's method of organisation, those titles are likely just a basic standard. Helmite temples in other regions across the Realms may be influenced by some various cultural influences when referring to members of their church, reflecting how the unique environment these temples have grown up in have influenced the church itself.
The title of 'Reverend Watcher' may be a popular title for High Helmites of the clergies in Chondath, but may not be used or even recognised in Helmite temples elsewhere.
Aye. There are many examples of such 'unofficial' preistly titles in Realmslore - FR Adventures, F&A, etcetera. I don't think there even were many listed high priests with an 'official' title in either of those aforementioned books?
I think this is the same as with military ranks in different nations. In addition to the cultural influences, I would like to mention that definitely each high priest's personality will certainly influence what title he/she will adopt ("Yes, Lord Phaermon's title was High Watcher, but I have chosen to be called Vigilant Guardian"). Then there is what I like to call the 'cult/aspect factor'
This factor was also reflected in 'The Priesthoods of the Realms'-accessory (I don't remember if it was called that ;) where different kinds of priests represented the different aspects of the faiths.
For example : in one of our campaigns we had a Halruaan native cleric of Lathander, who told the other PCs that Lathander is called 'Father Sky' in some parts of the South, and his worshipped aspect is more warlike than what is venetrated in the North. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 14:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
This factor was also reflected in 'The Priesthoods of the Realms'-accessory (I don't remember if it was called that ;) where different kinds of priests represented the different aspects of the faiths.
That's the 2e Warriors and Priests of the Realms tome.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 15:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
This factor was also reflected in 'The Priesthoods of the Realms'-accessory (I don't remember if it was called that ;) where different kinds of priests represented the different aspects of the faiths.
That's the 2e Warriors and Priests of the Realms tome.
Thanks, Sage. I am away from my books, so I only remembered the content, not the title
How do you feel about using different "aspects" of the same deity in campaigns? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2005 : 02:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
How do you feel about using different "aspects" of the same deity in campaigns?
I've always liked the idea, as it reflects the differing cultural biases and beliefs of each and every community in the Realms that a deity is worshipped in.
Take the Akadi/Teylas relationship for example. Among the Tuigan, Akadi is worshipped as Teylas, the lord of storms. Obviously here, we see another example of this cultural religious shift which results in an alternate interpretation for a pre-existing power. Although Akadi didn't actually fragment into Teylas, the Tuigan interpretation of Akadi as Teylas has resulted in a completely new basis for the elemental power who is, at least to the Tuigan, regarded as a god.
This in itself supports that view that as the human populations diversified across Faerun, the basic pantheon was re-evaluated according to the local environments the various human groups find themselves in and the cultural groups that come together as a result of the scattering.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 14:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Take the Akadi/Teylas relationship for example. Among the Tuigan, Akadi is worshipped as Teylas, the lord of storms. Obviously here, we see another example of this cultural religious shift which results in an alternate interpretation for a pre-existing power. Although Akadi didn't actually fragment into Teylas, the Tuigan interpretation of Akadi as Teylas has resulted in a completely new basis for the elemental power who is, at least to the Tuigan, regarded as a god.
When I read the 'Horselords'-novel, I got the impression that the author had meant Teylas to be a Tuigan aspect/interpretation of Talos (note the similarity in their names and portfolios).But Akadi/Teylas works just as fine.
quote:
This in itself supports that view that as the human populations diversified across Faerun, the basic pantheon was re-evaluated according to the local environments the various human groups find themselves in and the cultural groups that come together as a result of the scattering.
My eyes really opened up after I read the 'Faiths & Avatars' and 'Warriors and Priests of the Realms'. I realized that same deities might have different kinds of priests, depending on the nature/demeanor of individual priests and also on the local culture.
Another good example is Lathander, whose worship in the Old Empires is a bit different from the rest of Faerun.
I still consider 'F&A' to be "THE God Book of the Realms", since most of its content was imported into 'Faiths and Pantheons' - except 'Other manifestations' and unique avatar abilities, which couldn't be accomplished with Salient Divine Abilities |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 14:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
When I read the 'Horselords'-novel, I got the impression that the author had meant Teylas to be a Tuigan aspect/interpretation of Talos (note the similarity in their names and portfolios).But Akadi/Teylas works just as fine.
When I read Horselords I'd considered much the same during the earlier portions of the novel. However, in the 2e The Horde boxed set, we learn of the connection between Akadi and Teylas.
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Edited by - The Sage on 22 Jun 2005 14:34:52 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 17:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
When I read the 'Horselords'-novel, I got the impression that the author had meant Teylas to be a Tuigan aspect/interpretation of Talos (note the similarity in their names and portfolios).But Akadi/Teylas works just as fine.
When I read Horselords I'd considered much the same during the earlier portions of the novel. However, in the 2e The Horde boxed set, we learn of the connection between Akadi and Teylas.
I don't have the 'Horde' boxed set, so I only read of this connection in F&A. Funny that Talos hasn't intervened in this, since he seems to be quite aggressive about his portfolio and influence (and expanding them, if only possible). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 02:30:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I don't have the 'Horde' boxed set, so I only read of this connection in F&A.
The Horde boxed set is available for free download at WotC:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
quote:
Funny that Talos hasn't intervened in this, since he seems to be quite aggressive about his portfolio and influence (and expanding them, if only possible).
It could be that the people of the Taan hold little interest for him. It may also be that Talos has realised that expanding his faith into the Hordelands may do more actual harm than any real good. After all, the Tuigan take their relationship to Teylas very seriously. If Talos were to interfere in that divine connection that the Tuigan believe is sacred, it may serve to sour any future relationships between Talos and the Tuigan.
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Edited by - The Sage on 24 Jun 2005 02:32:34 |
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Titles and Ranks of Helm's Priests
