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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 22:35:22
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I'm asking this question since it came up in a debate on the Boards that Must Not be Named.
Those of you that started with 3/3.5e's lore for FR do you never use any of the old lore from 1e and 2e? If so why not? And if you do only use 3/3.5e's lore do you realize how much you are missing out on? I'm curious about why someone would only stick to 3/3.5e's FR lore and not use the old material. There's so much Realmslore from the older editions that has never been updated or expanded on in 3/3.5e.
This just boggles me that someone would just stick to using the 3/3.5e lore and never want to reference the other older lore.
Edit: I'm not talking about rules here, I'm talking about Realmslore. :)
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 01 Jun 2005 23:42:56
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 22:49:04
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Well it is clear that some that visit these halls will not acept prior edition lore. Though most appear willing to acept prior until/if imported /converted to 3.x. Not sure how many are new to the game of either position.
BTW I perfer the 1st Edition lore concerning Lolth, oh why could she not stay a 66 hit point demon *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 22:56:58
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I think there is a good reason for sticking to 3E lore...
Look at the amount of lore and products available for 1E and 2E. I've been collecting for years, and because of money issues, it's going to be a while before I can have all of the 1E and 2E stuff.
Plus, whether or not you've got the funds to obtain everything and can find it, there is also the issue of reading it all. There have been hundreds of maps and thousands of pages printed -- certainly a daunting amount for the newcomer.
I can understand why some would not want to obtain stuff from 1E and 2E. I can't understand not wanting to use older lore, but I can understand not trying to collect it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 23:06:04
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True I get that but if someone referenced the lore that you don't have and said this is how it is and the new lore doesn't say anything about this event or church or deity, why in all the gods would you continue to argue about it?
It just boggles me that someone would continue to discuss FR from only a 3/3.5e perspective. That's like saying, "I refuse to acknowledge anything that happened earlier then 1990."
So I was looking for personal replies from those who do not use the old material for lore. Why don't you? FR lore is FR lore no matter what edition it's from. Especially if the 3/3.5e lore hasn't touched on something from the old lore. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 01 Jun 2005 23:43:33 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 23:51:23
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I'll speculate. (Here, rather than on the wizards.com thread, where I'm hoping more people will post who feel as Kuje describes. Hush, Kuje, and let them speak there.)
To a lot of new players, the pre-3E sources are a big, complex, intimidating unknown. It's easy to gravitate to the books that are on store shelves, in print, supported by the website. Your friends may be more likely to have the same books. Wizards of the Coast's policy is that the newest sources supercede older sources in cases of conflict such as deliberate or inadvertent retcons: this is inevitable but also plays to their short-term financial interest, and you do see people overreacting by assuming that pre-3E facts are far more liable to be overwritten than they are. The novel-selling method of advancing the timeline also fosters a passive attitude to the Realms in which 1374 is now and other times are past and gone. Look at the eagerness some people have, also, to call currently unsupported games or settings 'dead'. It's daft, but it's a directly implied consumerist idea.
Or they may want neatly packaged information and not have to do too much research for their game.
It may be useful sometimes to talk about '2E sourcebooks', but doing that can give the impression that the '2Eness' -- either an undesirable or an unknown quantity to many 3E players -- is an inherent property of those books that, effectively, corrupts them, labels them as other. In fact, as we know, Realmslore is Realmslore, and it's largely accidental, peripheral, irrelevant that the books published from 1989 to 1999 are in conjunction with 2nd edition AD&D.
And people are not necessarily looking for Realmslore -- information about the secondary world called the Forgotten Realms. They may be looking for 'flavored' game-rule information, or some mix in which the rules are heavily valued.
They may not like ebooks. (I think this is irrational, too, since most of the people who protest they don't like reading on computers read equal amounts of text on websites.)
All about minds putting things in boxes. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 23:54:47
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I myself don't see a problem with using 1E or 2E Realmslore. The old stuff is still canon, and personally I think that most of the Realmslore I get comes from old sourcebooks like The North and Lands of Intrigue. In fact, the old 1E and 2E stuff gives a lot of good info that can be used in your campaigns, as they've never been updated in 3E/3.5E so you can play around with those without consequences.
Kuje, if you don't mind me asking, the people you are debating with at the Boards that Must Not be Named; are they just not using that material or are they saying that the stuff before 3E are all moot? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 00:09:37
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| I stopped gaming before 3E/3.5 ever came out.So 1E/2E realmslore is really all I know.I get most of my info from here.Which I want to thank all of my fellow scribes.The reason for this is basically I'm not going to spend the cash on lore books and supplements when I am not gaming anymore.I'd rather purchase the novels,and come here,and read up on some lore. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 00:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101Kuje, if you don't mind me asking, the people you are debating with at the Boards that Must Not be Named; are they just not using that material or are they saying that the stuff before 3E are all moot?
The one poster is saying both. :)
And to Faraer: I'm letting them talk. I'm just giving a few comments back. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Jun 2005 03:13:01 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 00:24:08
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Well, as someone that bought the old grey box and dearly cherished his Waterdeep and the North sourcebook, I have to say that while I really love the newer edition of the rules (have kids, then try to teach them 1 or 2e, its not impossible, but 3.5 is much easier!), the older lore is the foundation of how I think of the setting.
I love Waterdeep, and in fact this current campaign that I am running the the first one in a long time not set there, but I would never run a Waterdeep campaign without FR1 and the City of Splendors boxed set, or Volo's Guide to Waterdeep (my favorite sourcebook of any kind in any edition ever).
Similarly, I love running my Mistledale campaign using the old Dalelands and Volo's Guide to the Dalelands. As many of my fellow scribes have illustrated to me in discussions on the region, there is so much depth that you have no idea about if you only look at the entry in the FRCS. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 00:24:29
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Kuje, that's kind of ignorant of that person, isn't it? I mean, that's like saying, "I was never taught of history before the 1900's so that means anything before that never happened or existed."
Not using the 1E and 2E stuff is one thing, but to say all that don't exist? Wow... then I guess someone better tell all those guys that bought sourcebooks in the 80's that they wasted their money. Lol. So does this also mean that to this person, the Avatar series events never existed because the novel was written back in 2E and all those other old novels too? Haha...
I myself never played 1E or 2E, but I downloaded all the free sourcebooks and adventures that WotC has because they provide me with a lot of information I never knew. For example, Zelphar Arsun being killed by the Twisted Rune. I had been trying to find out who had killed him for a long time and if it wasn't one of the members here informing me that the info I was searching for was in the 2E Lands of Intrigue, I would've never found out. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 00:28:01
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kuje, that's kind of ignorant of that person, isn't it? I mean, that's like saying, "I was never taught of history before the 1900's so that means anything before that never happened or existed."
Not using the 1E and 2E stuff is one thing, but to say all that don't exist? Wow... then I guess someone better tell all those guys that bought sourcebooks in the 80's that they wasted their money. Lol. So does this also mean that to this person, the Avatar series events never existed because the novel was written back in 2E and all those other old novels too? Haha...
That is why I posted two threads about this. It boggled my mind that someone who started with 3/3.5e would say that the old lore is useless to him and he'd hardly ever reference it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Jun 2005 00:32:08 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 02:52:56
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I'm not going to say too much on this, because I've found Kuje is echoing alot of what I have just been thinking as I read through this scroll. As such, I'll just add that the Realmslore exists for a reason -- whether it is the previous material or the currently existing source information. Not everything that has been mentioned and detailed in 1e and 2e has been fully brought into the 3e FR source material. And so, those that choose to ignore such previously published tomes, are only hampering their opportunity to fully appreciate the vast wealth of material and extensive history that makes the Realms what it is today.
I know I still get a buzz of excitement when I open an older 1e or 2e FR tome. There's still secrets to plunder and lore to learn... and I wouldn't have it any other way...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 13:30:51
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I´m echoing the minds of my fellow scribes. To use the new rules is a thing (understandable, to say). But ignore the old lore? Pure nonsense. The Realmslore is engraved in the history of our "game lifes" by the hard work of so many good (and normal, and bad  ) writers, in the unstopable quill of Ed from the Greenwood, and a incredible quantity of good names: Elaine Cunningham, Kate Novack, Jeff Grub, Steven Schend, Eric L Boyd and many many many more good people that spend a very and hard time to give us the stuff of our dreams.
To someone came now and say that all that was done it´s now a "waste of time"?!?!? Man, to things (and people) like that I say a big NO! (sorry for the shout).
If I will use the new Waterdeep book in my 6 old years Waterdeep campaign? Of course! If I will use, too, my lovely old box City of Splendors? And the scrolls of Ed in the "Realmslore website" articles? And the good work from the scribes here from the Candlekeep? Of course, too!  It´s clear as the gleaming pools of Eldath, that Realmslore is Realmslore, and the lore is beyond the rules, systems, and all! |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 13:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Forgot about another source for RPG books. The Local Library, alot of Libraries carry RPG books.
And a great many don't. In the past few years, I've been near three different library systems and had access to countless others. None had any RPG books. Thus, I think it all depends on location and of course the purchasing authority for each library system. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 17:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Forgot about another source for RPG books. The Local Library, alot of Libraries carry RPG books.
And a great many don't. In the past few years, I've been near three different library systems and had access to countless others. None had any RPG books. Thus, I think it all depends on location and of course the purchasing authority for each library system.
Some libraries here have dragon magasine and many FR books. But there are not any RPG books around. I`m not amazed at this because the guys in charge of esbo,vanda and helsinki (I live in esbo) are out to mount as many library-heads above the open fire as possible. They are constantly cutting down the resources of the libraries here. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 17:07:20
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I've never seen an RPG book at a library unless someone carried it in with them.
On a related note, my first D&D acquisition was the 1E DMG -- the librarian at my school sold it to me for $6. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 22:38:32
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I've never seen an RPG or D&D sourcebook in a public library in my life. Not even at the Vancouver Public Library in Downtown, a 5 story tall building packed with books.
In fact, even huge chain bookstores like Indigo here in Canada rarely carries them. You have to order online and have them ship them over. The only time I ever saw D&D sourcebooks for sale in a store was this one little store in a ghetto part of downtown where they sell comics and stuff... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 01:20:37
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
In fact, even huge chain bookstores like Indigo here in Canada rarely carries them. You have to order online and have them ship them over.
And to top it off, they probably arrive in a brown paper sack... |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 01:39:07
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| Hey Wooly that was the very first RPG book that we us a group bought...I too have never seen any RPG books at any library.Though they did sell them at hobby shops in my town. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:06:53
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Wait.... you mean there's newer stuff than 2E?!?!  
I suppose it's bound to happen, after all; I do it in reverse. There's plenty of 3.xE Realmslore I look at and say "Um, no, not in my campaigns." But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened in someone else's campaign, so I need to keep it in the back of my mind.
But, to treat it as if it (the 2E material) never existed? Talk about closing opportunities, or even the old DM-misdirection trick (e.g. using 2E Realmslore knowing the players are reading 3.xE that might just be different ).
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Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I've never seen an RPG or D&D sourcebook in a public library in my life. Not even at the Vancouver Public Library in Downtown, a 5 story tall building packed with books.
In fact, even huge chain bookstores like Indigo here in Canada rarely carries them. You have to order online and have them ship them over. The only time I ever saw D&D sourcebooks for sale in a store was this one little store in a ghetto part of downtown where they sell comics and stuff...
Hmm I know a couple of the players in my group have checked out 3E D&D, D20 Star Wars, and Shadowrun RPG books from one of the local libraries in the Denver Metro area.
And my 1st Edition DMG was from a High School Library, in Merced California. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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Edited by - warlockco on 03 Jun 2005 02:12:53 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never seen an RPG book at a library unless someone carried it in with them.
Around the time I was eight, or was it when I was nine... my school library carried at least two copies each of the 1e PHB and the DMG. Eventually, they even acquired the 2e Monstrous Manual.
Strangely, and I think I've said this here before, the library at the university I'm presently studying at, has all three core rulebooks available for loan, and they are the updated 3.5e tomes.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 04:22:14
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
In fact, even huge chain bookstores like Indigo here in Canada rarely carries them. You have to order online and have them ship them over. The only time I ever saw D&D sourcebooks for sale in a store was this one little store in a ghetto part of downtown where they sell comics and stuff...
Over the last few years, there has been exactly 1 time when i have found an Indigo/Chapters/Coles without WotC sourcebooks-and that was after i'd grabbed the last two of theirs. Are you checking the right sections(Games and WotC fantasy)?
That just strikes me as really odd. |
Edited by - Arivia on 03 Jun 2005 04:40:00 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 18:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I've never seen an RPG or D&D sourcebook in a public library in my life. Not even at the Vancouver Public Library in Downtown, a 5 story tall building packed with books.
In fact, even huge chain bookstores like Indigo here in Canada rarely carries them. You have to order online and have them ship them over. The only time I ever saw D&D sourcebooks for sale in a store was this one little store in a ghetto part of downtown where they sell comics and stuff...
Strange... I live in northern Finland (Oulu), and our city library has all the core books for 3e & 3.5e, Dragonlance 3.5e setting, Gurps-rule books, RuneQuest, Harnmaster, Rolemaster etc. Perhaps about two hundred books, all in all. Local gamers just seem to borrow all the D&D books |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 18:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I've never seen an RPG or D&D sourcebook in a public library in my life. Not even at the Vancouver Public Library in Downtown, a 5 story tall building packed with books.
In fact, even huge chain bookstores like Indigo here in Canada rarely carries them. You have to order online and have them ship them over. The only time I ever saw D&D sourcebooks for sale in a store was this one little store in a ghetto part of downtown where they sell comics and stuff...
Strange... I live in northern Finland (Oulu), and our city library has all the core books for 3e & 3.5e, Dragonlance 3.5e setting, Gurps-rule books, RuneQuest, Harnmaster, Rolemaster etc. Perhaps about two hundred books, all in all. Local gamers just seem to borrow all the D&D books
I can`t believe it........ |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 23:09:33
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| I think some of the newer gamers just find it difficult to acquire 1e and 2e material. 3e and 3.5e are just so much easier to find, since most large book stores have them for sale. |
"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 08:13:56
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I have the answer for you Kuje, and it's a sad one. It's all about money and willingness to search. Almost all of the 2ed and earlier tomes are out of print (well, the ones with more fluff than crunch anyway) and with every minute they get older, they get more expensive. Not to mention that most people that are interrested in such tomes buy them whenever they get the opportunity to, which leaves 3.X newbies with nothing but the new material. Even online you can't find everything you're looking for without a desperate struggle and even if you do find something, it's likely not free. I've spent nearly $50 on just .pdf files. That's a little sad, don't you think? (the fact that the downloadable files have cost so much, not the fact that I actually downloaded them ). Also, being the only person in my D&D group that cares a whit about realmslore, they'll think "Why bother looking it up?" You have these four or five pages in the new books that "sum up" everything important you'll need to know, right?  Say, for instance, my group wants to run a campaign into Cormanthor. They'll pick up both the PGtF and the FRCS (forget Ancient Empires, I seemed to be the only one remotely interested in that) and think they know everything. Forget that theres the entire 2ed Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves to look at. ::sigh:: Truly sad indeed. |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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LordAnki
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 18:22:24
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| Well I know that I play only 3/3.5 Edition FR games but if I'm just reading up on things then I will check everything that I can get ahold of. Elves of Evermeet, Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, and Demihuman Deities. Those are great things that go great for everything. I want to get my hands on some 2nd edition PHB so I can play a cavelier and I can't wait until Wizard's puts all the 2nd ed stuff online for download/sale. I'll gladly pay 4 dollars for a book that use to cost more than that and the only thing that is stopping you from taking the book with you is if you have a pda or a laptop. There is a great amount of information that is better in 2nd ed FR. |
Tip of the Month: don't drink the dirty water. You know what i'm talking about if you know what i mean. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 19:08:13
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quote:
Originally posted by LordAnki
Well I know that I play only 3/3.5 Edition FR games but if I'm just reading up on things then I will check everything that I can get ahold of. Elves of Evermeet, Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, and Demihuman Deities. Those are great things that go great for everything. I want to get my hands on some 2nd edition PHB so I can play a cavelier and I can't wait until Wizard's puts all the 2nd ed stuff online for download/sale. I'll gladly pay 4 dollars for a book that use to cost more than that and the only thing that is stopping you from taking the book with you is if you have a pda or a laptop. There is a great amount of information that is better in 2nd ed FR.
I'd have to double-check, but I'm fairly certain that the cavalier was not in the 2E PHB. It had been cut from 1E, and I think the Complete Fighter's Handbook brought it back as a kit (kits in 2E were kinda like class-specific templates). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Realmslore
