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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 23:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Iliphar1
I doubt, that the undead Manshoon would fight with the alive Manshoon because doing so would be a step back into the Manshoon Wars.
A more interesting question: What's happening with the Manshoon in the Undermountain? What are his plans and motivations to ally with Halaster?
All we know is the unofficial lore of Steven Schend:
quote:
Why the hell is Halaster allowing a Manshoon clone to live with him? And why doesn't the clone go beserk and try to kill everything in the Undermountain?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>ahem<
Halaster sends greetings and a note: "For the same reason I once delivered a gibbering mouther unto a fellow mage's bed chambers--variety."
Manshoon's note and answer to your query: "Reasons twofold--I am far too well-mannered to go berserk, and I have better things to do than kill the pets of my host, as infinite and oft-regenerative as they are."
Geez, I'm beginning to remember why I stopped writing in the Realms--the random notes dropping out of thin air around me....
Steven
who thinks it's a very good thing the Manshoon of Undermountain isn't interested in establishing a Zhentish trade route through Skullport....but he wonders what he's up to in talks with various and sundry slavers, illithids, and githyanki..... >:)
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jun 2005 23:19:51 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 02:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Steven
who thinks it's a very good thing the Manshoon of Undermountain isn't interested in establishing a Zhentish trade route through Skullport....but he wonders what he's up to in talks with various and sundry slavers, illithids, and githyanki..... >:)
Hehe... I ran a quick side trip, in my regular Waterdeep campain, through Undermountain to explore this exact situation after Steven originally posted it.
It didn't amount to much, since the PCs didn't delve far enough to discover what Manshoon was up to (they didn't even know that he was there), so I would have liked to have detailed his activities further had the opportunity arose.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 02:41:34
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Remember the clever words of Richard Lee Byers, at last year's GenCon Indy FR seminar: "In my father's house, there are many Manshoons."
In other words, there are MORE Manshoons than 3e lore currently admits (as Ed will reveal in the fullness of time). And I'd say he's far more powerful than Fzoul, because he has fall-back plans and caches and plans set in motion far beyond Fzoul's capacity to anticipate. He may have suffered a personal setback within the Zhentarim, temporarily, but (to quote Ed of the Greenwood, hereafter):
"He's MUCH more cunning and better prepared than Fzoul has ever been. Fzoul always plays the "Hi, God of the Moment, I'm Yours!" card, and that's like juggling a flaming sword: no matter how good you are, sooner or later you're going to get badly cut and burned. My money is always on Manshoon - - and remember, I created Fzoul, Manshoon, and the Zhentarim, but haven't really had the chance to properly tell any of their stories, yet. Just fragments."
To this I can add: don't miss the Best of Eddie book, for a few glimpses more . . .
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 08 Jun 2005 02:42:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 05:47:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Remember the clever words of Richard Lee Byers, at last year's GenCon Indy FR seminar: "In my father's house, there are many Manshoons."
In other words, there are MORE Manshoons than 3e lore currently admits (as Ed will reveal in the fullness of time). And I'd say he's far more powerful than Fzoul, because he has fall-back plans and caches and plans set in motion far beyond Fzoul's capacity to anticipate. He may have suffered a personal setback within the Zhentarim, temporarily, but (to quote Ed of the Greenwood, hereafter):
"He's MUCH more cunning and better prepared than Fzoul has ever been. Fzoul always plays the "Hi, God of the Moment, I'm Yours!" card, and that's like juggling a flaming sword: no matter how good you are, sooner or later you're going to get badly cut and burned. My money is always on Manshoon - - and remember, I created Fzoul, Manshoon, and the Zhentarim, but haven't really had the chance to properly tell any of their stories, yet. Just fragments."
To this I can add: don't miss the Best of Eddie book, for a few glimpses more . . .
love,
THO
Man, I could have used those words when I was arguing with someone who decided that since Manshoon had died a few times and Fzoul hadn't, then Fzoul was obviously more powerful and more intelligent than Manshoon...
I'd love to see more on the other Manshoons, the ones that 3E basically kicked to the curb. I've said more than once that I thought that the Manshoon Wars were a wonderful development, and that WotC dropped the ball by dropping them rather than running with them (ditto for the Harper Schism)... |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 06:26:11
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| Greetings, I am not that familiar about the Manshoon Wars, can anyone please tell me what the Manshoon Wars are all about? And how did Manshoon end up in Undermountain? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 07:25:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
To this I can add: don't miss the Best of Eddie book, for a few glimpses more . . .
love,
THO
Oooh! I loved hearing that. Now, I can only imagine...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 07:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Greetings, I am not that familiar about the Manshoon Wars, can anyone please tell me what the Manshoon Wars are all about? And how did Manshoon end up in Undermountain?
The Manshoon Wars are detailed in the Cloak and Dagger supplement.
C&D states that at some point, all of Manshoon's stasis clones suddenly awoke all at the same time (it is not actually known how this happened, but C&D offers some intriguing possibilities), becoming active on Faerun and in Realmspace. These clones quickly grew determined to eradicate any and all other Manshoon clones who had also been actived, and during their efforts, showed little overall concern for anyone else who was caught in their paths of pursuit. Manshoon himself, the original Manshoon, was left with very little, after several powerful allies turned their backs on him.
Basically, Steven Schend intended to generate a specific religious focus for the Zhentarim through the Manshoon Wars. This was why they originally became worshippers of Xvim. In addition, Steven wanted to make Manshoon an unknown element within the general plot running through the Realmslore. Each "Manshoon" would be discreetly dropped into future FR accessories, giving DMs wider choices with regard to how to plan and play the overall effects and results, of Manshoon and his clones, upon the Realms. That is why we originally learned that there were so many (at least forty) clones now scouting around Faerun looking to make places for themselves.
Along with many scribes here, both Wooly and I have stated many times, that WotC really failed to grasp how exciting such a plot would have became had it been allowed to grow and expand as the Realms material was published. But, it was lost, along with some other Realmslore aspects during the change-over to 3e.
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Edited by - The Sage on 08 Jun 2005 07:45:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 11:31:11
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To add a bit more to the Sage's answer: When Manshoon was killed, 40 clones woke up and started causing problems. A lot of them killed each other, and some left Realmspace altogether.
Officially, 3 Manshoons remain. One is the one with the Zhents. One is a vampire crimelord in Westgate. And one is hanging with Halaster in Undermountain. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 14:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of them killed each other, and some left Realmspace altogether.
Yes... There's that one brief sentence in one of my DL tomes that describes a human not unlike Manshoon at the head of a traders guild based on Avernus. There aren't any specific details mentioned, but it does say that this human recently fled a Prime world to avoid a growing threat to his identity.
Make of that what you will...
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Edited by - The Sage on 08 Jun 2005 14:23:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 17:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of them killed each other, and some left Realmspace altogether.
Yes... There's that one brief sentence in one of my DL tomes that describes a human not unlike Manshoon at the head of a traders guild based on Avernus. There aren't any specific details mentioned, but it does say that this human recently fled a Prime world to avoid a growing threat to his identity.
Make of that what you will...
That does sound like Manshoon, and I do seem to recall a line in C&D saying that some had left via the planes...
A bit more lore for those unfamiliar with the Manshoon Wars: the clones have an overwhelming compulsion to kill each other any time they get too close to each other -- I think the safe zone is five miles. Outside of that zone, they can control that urge.
Also, it's only "living Manshoon clones" that are affected. If one becomes something other than a living Manshoon clone, then he is freed of the "slay the other clones!" compulsion. Permanent polymorphs and becoming undead will get around the compulsion, and so will changing genders -- one poster on the WotC forums had a female Manshoon (courtesy of the Ranma-esque girdle of masculinity/femininity) he used as an NPC.
Some suggestions from previous discussions involved clones settling in areas where they'd not have to worry about encountering other clones. Obviously, skipping planes or spelljamming away would work. So would going to one of the other continents, like Kara-Tur or Maztica. Picking out-of-the-way areas would work, too. Picking rather exotic locales -- like, the bottom of the Sea of Fallen Stars -- would also do the trick. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 03:56:01
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| I hope we will get to a see a novel featuring Manshoon. That would be interesting. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 05:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I hope we will get to a see a novel featuring Manshoon. That would be interesting.
Well, he does have some appearances in Shandril's Saga... But as for there being a novel devoted to the wizardly cockroach (), a lot of people have mentioned wanting one, and that seems to be as far as its gotten. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 06:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I hope we will get to a see a novel featuring Manshoon. That would be interesting.
Well, he does have some appearances in Shandril's Saga... But as for there being a novel devoted to the wizardly cockroach (), a lot of people have mentioned wanting one, and that seems to be as far as its gotten.
Manshoon also features in the short story "So High a Price", from the Realms of Infamy anthology, where his mad grab for the ultimate power in Zhentil Keep is thwarted by a polymorphed Elminster.
The story is also reprinted in the to-be-released "Best of Ed Greenwood" anthology.
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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Jun 2005 06:12:46 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 10:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I hope we will get to a see a novel featuring Manshoon. That would be interesting.
Well, maybe a novel telling of the rise of Manshoon to power will be more interesting, I often wondered how did Manshoon came about and how did he came to be a great mage. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 11:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I hope we will get to a see a novel featuring Manshoon. That would be interesting.
Well, maybe a novel telling of the rise of Manshoon to power will be more interesting, I often wondered how did Manshoon came about and how did he came to be a great mage.
Well, I think a novel depicting the Vampiric Manshoon and his insidious plans on Faerun will be a more interesting read. Well, it would be nice to see how the faiths of faerun will react to this new threat. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 16:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I hope we will get to a see a novel featuring Manshoon. That would be interesting.
Well, maybe a novel telling of the rise of Manshoon to power will be more interesting, I often wondered how did Manshoon came about and how did he came to be a great mage.
Yeah that would be good. The only source on this is the out-of-print Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 02:35:54
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Indeed, Ruins of Zhentil Keep has some details on the rise of Manshoon.
Also, check out his entry in the Villains' Lorebook available for free download on the WotC website.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 03:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed, Ruins of Zhentil Keep has some details on the rise of Manshoon.
Also, check out his entry in the Villains' Lorebook available for free download on the WotC website.
Lucky for me, I have the actual book :) Good lore there and great lore in Ruins of Zhentil Keep. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 11:30:45
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| Pardon, would anyone mind sharing some information about Manshoon rise to power and how he became a great mage? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 14:35:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Pardon, would anyone mind sharing some information about Manshoon rise to power and how he became a great mage?
That's a considerable amount of lore to post, so what I suggest is, that you download the Villain's Lorebook from WotC and read up on Manshoon's entry as I said earlier. That covers the basics of Manshoon's past.
Here's the direct link to the PDF download:- http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9552.zip
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 02:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Pardon, would anyone mind sharing some information about Manshoon rise to power and how he became a great mage?
That's a considerable amount of lore to post, so what I suggest is, that you download the Villain's Lorebook from WotC and read up on Manshoon's entry as I said earlier. That covers the basics of Manshoon's past.
Here's the direct link to the PDF download:- http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9552.zip
Thank you, The Sage, for the direct link. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 02:49:57
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Not a problem .
If you don't feel like downloading the entire 9+MB file just for the information on Manshoon (although it does contain factual and statistical details on most of the other villains of 2e FR), I could summarise the most important aspects of his history here if you like?
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 03:26:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not a problem .
If you don't feel like downloading the entire 9+MB file just for the information on Manshoon (although it does contain factual and statistical details on most of the other villains of 2e FR), I could summarise the most important aspects of his history here if you like?
Ah, your offer is certainly welcome but I certainly do not wish to trouble you but still your offer is greatly appreciated by me. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 13:56:03
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I was less surprised to learn that a clone had found sanctuary with Halaster, than I was to learn that one had found sanctuary with THE SIMBUL. Now *that* took some serious balls on Mr. Clone's part!
"Hello Alassra. You might remember me? I'm Manshoon, the former head of the Zhentarim. You know, the guy who has tried to kill your lover Elminster half a dozen or more times? Sorry about that. Anyway, I was wondering if you could use an apprentice ..."
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 10:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by RevJest
I was less surprised to learn that a clone had found sanctuary with Halaster, than I was to learn that one had found sanctuary with THE SIMBUL. Now *that* took some serious balls on Mr. Clone's part!
"Hello Alassra. You might remember me? I'm Manshoon, the former head of the Zhentarim. You know, the guy who has tried to kill your lover Elminster half a dozen or more times? Sorry about that. Anyway, I was wondering if you could use an apprentice ..."
Pardon, did this really happened? I mean how did Manshoon clone came to meet up with mad Halaster in the Undermountain or meet up with the Simbul? If this really happened, it would be no doubt an interesting encounter that should be recorded down by the scribes here. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 11:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by RevJest
I was less surprised to learn that a clone had found sanctuary with Halaster, than I was to learn that one had found sanctuary with THE SIMBUL. Now *that* took some serious balls on Mr. Clone's part!
"Hello Alassra. You might remember me? I'm Manshoon, the former head of the Zhentarim. You know, the guy who has tried to kill your lover Elminster half a dozen or more times? Sorry about that. Anyway, I was wondering if you could use an apprentice ..."
Pardon, did this really happened? I mean how did Manshoon clone came to meet up with mad Halaster in the Undermountain or meet up with the Simbul? If this really happened, it would be no doubt an interesting encounter that should be recorded down by the scribes here.
Well, we don't know if it played out exactly like that, but we do know that a Manshoon clone sought sanctuary with the Simbul. It's listed in Cloak & Dagger. Many of the Manshoon clones sought sanctuary with mages of note. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rivalen
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 11:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by RevJest
I was less surprised to learn that a clone had found sanctuary with Halaster, than I was to learn that one had found sanctuary with THE SIMBUL. Now *that* took some serious balls on Mr. Clone's part!
"Hello Alassra. You might remember me? I'm Manshoon, the former head of the Zhentarim. You know, the guy who has tried to kill your lover Elminster half a dozen or more times? Sorry about that. Anyway, I was wondering if you could use an apprentice ..."
Pardon, did this really happened? I mean how did Manshoon clone came to meet up with mad Halaster in the Undermountain or meet up with the Simbul? If this really happened, it would be no doubt an interesting encounter that should be recorded down by the scribes here.
Well, we don't know if it played out exactly like that, but we do know that a Manshoon clone sought sanctuary with the Simbul. It's listed in Cloak & Dagger. Many of the Manshoon clones sought sanctuary with mages of note.
I guess the Simbul threw manshoon clone out of her palace. Odd that manshoon will seek such a dangerous place to hide. He might be better off hiding in Shade Enclave or with the Red Wizards. |
Fight to win, but donlt fight too long or for glorious tales. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 12:39:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rivalen
I guess the Simbul threw manshoon clone out of her palace. Odd that manshoon will seek such a dangerous place to hide. He might be better off hiding in Shade Enclave or with the Red Wizards.
We don't really know that... She could've been helping him hide until he could find another place to go, Mystra may have commanded her to take him in for a while, Manshoon could've gone there just long enough to ponder his next move and then left, or she could have helped him become something other than a living Manshoon clone, so he'd be free of the compulsion.
All we know is that a Manshoon clone hung out with the Simbul, and that he's not there now. Anything else is speculation. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 16:44:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rivalen
I guess the Simbul threw manshoon clone out of her palace. Odd that manshoon will seek such a dangerous place to hide. He might be better off hiding in Shade Enclave or with the Red Wizards.
We don't really know that... She could've been helping him hide until he could find another place to go, Mystra may have commanded her to take him in for a while, Manshoon could've gone there just long enough to ponder his next move and then left, or she could have helped him become something other than a living Manshoon clone, so he'd be free of the compulsion.
All we know is that a Manshoon clone hung out with the Simbul, and that he's not there now. Anything else is speculation.
It would make sense for Mystra to do something like that. I believe it was in Elminster's Daughter that Mystra basically told the Simbul to stop killing the Red Wizards. It's good to see the current Mystra focusing on magic itself, remaining more neutral than she was upon her ascension. It looks as if the last mortal emotions of Midnight are finally being cast aside. |
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Manshoon
