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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
 Posted - 23 May 2005 : 15:33:30
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| Although I don't buy source books, I've been hearing alot that Cloak and Dagger details much, if not most of the Manshoon Wars. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 16:47:28
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Faraer (sp?) also posted more about Manshoon last year and I snagged it so it's in my Ed 04 file. :)
Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set should have some info on Manshoon.
Villian's Lorebook
The 2 campaign box sets
Hall of Heroes
Various novels and short stories mostly written by Ed |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 17:17:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Faraer (sp?) also posted more about Manshoon last year and I snagged it so it's in my Ed 04 file. :)
I'm am almost finished reading through your '04 file, and let me just say thanks for compiling that!
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set should have some info on Manshoon.
Villian's Lorebook
The 2 campaign box sets
Hall of Heroes
Various novels and short stories mostly written by Ed
Thanks Kuje, that points me in the right direction. This brings up new questions, are the Manshoon Wars covered in the novels at all? I've read Shandril's Saga, Shadows of the Avatar, and the short story from Realms of Infamy, what other novels/short stories feature Manshoon in a significant role? |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 17:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I'm am almost finished reading through your '04 file, and let me just say thanks for compiling that!
Thanks Kuje, that points me in the right direction. This brings up new questions, are the Manshoon Wars covered in the novels at all? I've read Shandril's Saga, Shadows of the Avatar, and the short story from Realms of Infamy, what other novels/short stories feature Manshoon in a significant role?
Thanks! I'm working on turning it into a hosted HTML file for Alaundo for Candlekeep as well. It'll be split into 3 months each for 4 HTML files.
No, there's no novel on the Manshoon Wars. Cloak & Dagger is the only source as was said above. I believe Ed is the only one that has writen about Manshoon in his novels. There are probably other novels that include him which was why I said various short stories and novels. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 23 May 2005 17:26:48 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 21:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I'm am almost finished reading through your '04 file, and let me just say thanks for compiling that!
Thanks Kuje, that points me in the right direction. This brings up new questions, are the Manshoon Wars covered in the novels at all? I've read Shandril's Saga, Shadows of the Avatar, and the short story from Realms of Infamy, what other novels/short stories feature Manshoon in a significant role?
Thanks! I'm working on turning it into a hosted HTML file for Alaundo for Candlekeep as well. It'll be split into 3 months each for 4 HTML files.
No, there's no novel on the Manshoon Wars. Cloak & Dagger is the only source as was said above. I believe Ed is the only one that has writen about Manshoon in his novels. There are probably other novels that include him which was why I said various short stories and novels. :)
Well, then it seems as if Cloak and Dagger is the major piece of Manshoon lore that I've been missing. That makes sense since I finally got a copy of C&D but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 21:07:48
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Where can I gain access to your files, Kuje? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 21:20:43
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If you haven't picked it up already, Lords of Darkness (a FR sourcebook) deals fairly extensively with the Manshoon who's managed to sequester himself in Westgate. The most interesting part is that the Night King isn't just a Manshoon clone, but a Manshoon clone turned vampire.
Happy hunting!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 21:26:42
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Where can I gain access to your files, Kuje?
Ed's 04 and 05 files? See my sig. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 05:35:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If you haven't picked it up already, Lords of Darkness (a FR sourcebook) deals fairly extensively with the Manshoon who's managed to sequester himself in Westgate. The most interesting part is that the Night King isn't just a Manshoon clone, but a Manshoon clone turned vampire.
Happy hunting!
Cheers
Thanks, I picked that up when it came out, but I apparently didn't study it adequately. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 10:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Where can I gain access to your files, Kuje?
Ed's 04 and 05 files? See my sig. :)
Thanks. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:21:33
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According to the New FR Campaign setting only 3 clones have survived the Manshoon Wars:
- Vampire Lord in Westgate (what a stupid vampire to try to make a Manshoon Clone a Vampire Slave...)
- One, who has fled into the Undermuntain and has some dealing with Halaster
- One who has gone back to the black Network, but (for some very unclear reason) didn't assume leadership.
It's a real pity, that many events were never mentioned in any books or novels anywhere else then C&D and FR CS. It would have been interesting to get more informations about the Manshoon wars, which surely has shaken the Realms. The same with the (rather strange) return of Bane...
Also according to C&D Baatezu replaced some high ranking Zhentarim. They would't want to serve Fzoul, would they? After reading C&D I assumed, that the Baatezu would be the real power behind the Zhentarim and Fzoul is more the puppet ruler (like the former Lord Chess in Zhentil Keep) Did that actually change or are the Devils still in high ranking positions in the Black Network?
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'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Iliphar1Also according to C&D Baatezu replaced some high ranking Zhentarim. They would't want to serve Fzoul, would they? After reading C&D I assumed, that the Baatezu would be the real power behind the Zhentarim and Fzoul is more the puppet ruler (like the former Lord Chess in Zhentil Keep) Did that actually change or are the Devils still in high ranking positions in the Black Network?
I believe they were killed off either in the FRCS or Lords of Darkness. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:57:29
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| Then there was my theory that none of the clones were actually Manshoon . . . but the last time I voiced that theory I was warned of the . . . ahem, onmipresent eyes of a certain wizard. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Iliphar1
According to the New FR Campaign setting only 3 clones have survived the Manshoon Wars:
- Vampire Lord in Westgate (what a stupid vampire to try to make a Manshoon Clone a Vampire Slave...)
- One, who has fled into the Undermuntain and has some dealing with Halaster
- One who has gone back to the black Network, but (for some very unclear reason) didn't assume leadership.
It's a real pity, that many events were never mentioned in any books or novels anywhere else then C&D and FR CS. It would have been interesting to get more informations about the Manshoon wars, which surely has shaken the Realms. The same with the (rather strange) return of Bane...
Also according to C&D Baatezu replaced some high ranking Zhentarim. They would't want to serve Fzoul, would they? After reading C&D I assumed, that the Baatezu would be the real power behind the Zhentarim and Fzoul is more the puppet ruler (like the former Lord Chess in Zhentil Keep) Did that actually change or are the Devils still in high ranking positions in the Black Network?
Lord Orgauth, a pit fiend who impersonated a Zhentish lord, was part of the plot (with Fzoul) to kill Manshoon. He was later slain by Scyllua Darkhope.
Personally, I think that the Manshoon Wars are one of the many places that WotC dropped the ball when they unleashed 3E on us. They had a wonderful development that could have stirred things up for years, and they instead chose to slam the door closed on it. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:26:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Personally, I think that the Manshoon Wars are one of the many places that WotC dropped the ball when they unleashed 3E on us. They had a wonderful development that could have stirred things up for years, and they instead chose to slam the door closed on it.
I couldn't agree more. This entire aspect of Manshoon's history was something that could have become the basis for many unique and interesting, as well as, long term plots across the continent.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:46:45
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A large and bearded bird hath told me that a glimpse (just a GLIMPSE) of Manshoon's doings may be fictionally available in 2006, somehow and somewhere . . .
love to all,
THO the Terrible Tease |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:53:57
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THO, you are a naughty hipskirts . . .  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:55:25
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Oooh! Now that is some teasing news .
Tell me Lady Hooded One... If we feed this large and bearded bird some exotic seeds, do you think he can be coaxed into revealing more...?  
I'm kidding of course, but, you never know...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 14:58:18
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I take it that the reason I haven't found anything on the Manshoon Wars (other than the page it got in Cloak and Dagger) is because there isn't anything. It appears my frustration at the lack of Manshoon lore is shared, perhaps our frustration will be alleviated (slightly) from what the Dear Lady Hooded has shared with us.
One more question... I understand that there were many Manshoon scenes cut from Spellfire when it was first released, do you know if they were restored in the new extended version? I read Ed's post that said that much of the Malaugrym plot had been restored, but I don't remember anything about Manshoon. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 03:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
One more question... I understand that there were many Manshoon scenes cut from Spellfire when it was first released, do you know if they were restored in the new extended version? I read Ed's post that said that much of the Malaugrym plot had been restored, but I don't remember anything about Manshoon.
I wouldn't know since I have yet to read my copy of the re-released novel of Spellfire.
Given what Ed said about the Malaugrym though, I suppose we can assume that some of the other removed Manshoon scenes were replaced. We can assume that is, until a scribe who has actually read the revised book can either confirm or deny this... .
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 20:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A large and bearded bird hath told me that a glimpse (just a GLIMPSE) of Manshoon's doings may be fictionally available in 2006, somehow and somewhere . . .
love to all,
THO the Terrible Tease
That's great news. I totally agree with Wooly. I always saw the Manshoon war scenario as this gaping, vacant spot that hasn't been filled yet. The return of Bane should have also been done up in a novel or three. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 23:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A large and bearded bird hath told me that a glimpse (just a GLIMPSE) of Manshoon's doings may be fictionally available in 2006, somehow and somewhere . . .
love to all,
THO the Terrible Tease
That's great news. I totally agree with Wooly. I always saw the Manshoon war scenario as this gaping, vacant spot that hasn't been filled yet. The return of Bane should have also been done up in a novel or three.
Yup. The Harper Schism was another great thing they should have played up, but instead kicked to the curb with 3E. Things like that are part of the reason I say 3E was "inflicted" on us.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 10:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A large and bearded bird hath told me that a glimpse (just a GLIMPSE) of Manshoon's doings may be fictionally available in 2006, somehow and somewhere . . .
love to all,
THO the Terrible Tease
My father is an amateur ornitologist so he would definitely want to see that bird. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Defender
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 13:41:59
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| Among the Lords of the Zhentarim, it is widely known there are three lords which include Manshoon. Is Manshoon greater than The other two lords? Will there be a day where Manshoon gains control of the whole Zhentarim with control of all three Zhentarim fortresses? |
Justice is swift and will strike when you least expect it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 14:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Defender
Is Manshoon greater than The other two lords?
For the most part, Manshoon's power in the Zhentarim is based upon the singular fact that Fzoul allows him a certain level of autonomy within the Black Network. As such, I wouldn't say that Manshoon's power is greater than either of the other two or three lords -- Fzoul Chembryl, Scyllua Darkhope, and Kandar Milinal.
Fzoul is the actual head of the Zhentarim, as well as the Chosen of Bane. This in itself grants him a significant amount of power both in mortal matters, as well as those of the divine. With Bane as THE power in Zhentil Keep, the final authority of the Black Network would appear to be within the purview of Fzoul.
Scyllua on the other hand is the Castellan of Zhentil Keep, as well as the High Captain of the city's armies. In addition, she also handles a considerable amount of the city's administration since Fzoul is often busy with church business. She answers to Fzoul. Again, her overall power, while great, is limited by the fact that she must also answer to the Chosen of Bane.
Kandar Milinal is the power in the Citadel of the Raven. His devotion to Bane is matched only by his drive to purge Darkhold of the last of its Cyricist hangers-on. Of course, this drive to purge Darkhold might blind him to the goings on in the Citadel, and as such, his role as Lord may eventually come into question...
Manshoon, while allowed some freedoms, must still ultimately report to Fzoul. So, there would seem to be at least some limit to his overall power within the Black Network. I'd say he'd occupy a position between Scyllua and Kandar.
And of course, he's made grabs for ultimate power in the Zhentarim before, each time with mixed results. He's hatched some rather expansive plans and plots in the past. Time will only tell which of these plans or plots finally thrust him into a higher position within the organisation.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 09:33:14
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| Greetings everyone. It is well known that manshoon, High Lord of Zhentil Keep has stasis clones spawning up each time he dies. Currently there is one undead Manshoon posing as the Faceless one in Westgate Nightmasks assassin guid, compared to the original Manshoon, The undead manshoon version is superior but will there be a day where the living manshoon meets the undead manshoon, and will there be a confrontation between the two? Or will the two make a pact/alliance of convenience? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 09:48:30
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An alliance of convenience would be most likely between the living and undead versions of Manshoon as it would serve their plans. First, support for Manshoon in Zhentil Keep is not always stable nor in his favor especially concerning the beholders and the fact that Manshoon often sacrificed Zhentilar soldiers or anyone in the Zhentarim he does not favor, as a meal to the beholders may lower the Zhentilar support for him. So, The living version of Manshoon needs strong stable support to seize the reins of the whole Black Network.
Second, The undead version of Manshoon has many annoyances to deal with while working to see that his dream of a kingdom and empire of vampires with humans as slaves and blood suppliers come true. The undead version of Manshoon has to deal with Harpers, Knights of the Shield and maybe the Red Wizards and the followers of Tyr especially the High Priest of Tyr who often sent clerics, followers, paladins to meddle with the Nightmask plans. So, The undead version of Manshoon would likely appreciate aid from the living manshoon to at least distract the attention of the Nightmasks foes while he finalises his grand plans. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 09:50:49
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| Hmm, very true. It seems that the two versions of Manshoon prefer to make full use of the other before slaying the other should the other pose a threat to their plans. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 22:51:14
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I doubt, that the undead Manshoon would fight with the alive Manshoon because doing so would be a step back into the Manshoon Wars.
A more interesting question: What's happening with the Manshoon in the Undermountain? What are his plans and motivations to ally with Halaster? |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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Manshoon
