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Bendal
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
 Posted - 22 May 2005 : 16:24:07
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IMO the 3e rules for calculating experience points based on "encounter level" is way too complicated. Or maybe I'm just not understanding it yet.
For example:
A party of six 3rd level adventurers defeat a band of orcs consisting of:
13 1st level orc warriors
2 3rd level orc rogues
a 4th level orc adept, and
a 4th level orc fighter
The orcs were waiting in ambush, used magic spells and had some magic items (magic weapon and shield, wand, scrolls and potions), and had a trap set up to incapacitate some of the adventurers (which the PC rogue found and disarmed, gaining her some XP's). Nearly all the PC's were disabled in the fight, but they did win and none of them died.
What is the challenge rating of this encounter, and what XP award should the PC's get?
According to pg38 of the DMG, a 1st level orc warrior has a CR of 1/2, and doubling the number of orc warriors increases the CR by two, so 13 1st level orc warriors by themselves is a CR of 6 or so.
But wait! That CR rating is based on a party of four PC's, not six. So, I'll reduce it by 50%, down to a CR of 4. I guess I could require the # of orcs to go up to 4 before adding two CR's, but that would make the CR too low IMO.
Then we add the four higher level orcs. Two 3rd level orc rogues should be a CR 5 encounter by themselves (way too high IMO), as is the CR rating of 6 for the two 4th level orcs.
I'm leaning towards giving this encounter a CR of 6, but how do other DM's calculate XP's for a mixed encounter like this?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 17:13:51
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http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm helps calculate EL and experience points.
This little battle appears to be an EL of about 9, because of high number of foes.
Edit: If the Adept is treated as CR = Level - 1 the encounter level would be 8 |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 22 May 2005 17:38:07 |
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Bendal
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 17:55:15
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Kentinal,
Thank you so much for the link to the XP calculator! The calculations were becoming so complicated that I was starting to wonder if it was even possible to work out the XP amount to award the PC's.
I do disagree with the "overpowering" rating given the encounter by the program. It was a very difficult fight for the PC's and took a large amount of their resources (all their offensive spells and several charges from a wand of cure light wounds), but an overpowering fight IMO is one that they had no chance to win. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 18:07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Bendal
IMO the 3e rules for calculating experience points based on "encounter level" is way too complicated. Or maybe I'm just not understanding it yet.
For example:
A party of six 3rd level adventurers defeat a band of orcs consisting of:
13 1st level orc warriors
2 3rd level orc rogues
a 4th level orc adept, and
a 4th level orc fighter
The orcs were waiting in ambush, used magic spells and had some magic items (magic weapon and shield, wand, scrolls and potions), and had a trap set up to incapacitate some of the adventurers (which the PC rogue found and disarmed, gaining her some XP's). Nearly all the PC's were disabled in the fight, but they did win and none of them died.
What is the challenge rating of this encounter, and what XP award should the PC's get?
According to pg38 of the DMG, a 1st level orc warrior has a CR of 1/2, and doubling the number of orc warriors increases the CR by two, so 13 1st level orc warriors by themselves is a CR of 6 or so.
But wait! That CR rating is based on a party of four PC's, not six. So, I'll reduce it by 50%, down to a CR of 4. I guess I could require the # of orcs to go up to 4 before adding two CR's, but that would make the CR too low IMO.
Then we add the four higher level orcs. Two 3rd level orc rogues should be a CR 5 encounter by themselves (way too high IMO), as is the CR rating of 6 for the two 4th level orcs.
I'm leaning towards giving this encounter a CR of 6, but how do other DM's calculate XP's for a mixed encounter like this?
You're completely off-target and confusing EL with CR.
EL is Encounter Level-the level at which a party of four adventurers should be able to take on the encounter.
In comparison, CR is the Challenge Rating of a single monster, when a party of four adventurers should be able to take on that monster.
CR is what you use for experience calculation, *not* EL.
Each of the orc warriors(13) has a CR of 1/2.
Each of the orc rogues(2) has a CR of 3.
The orc adept has a CR of 3.
The orc fighter has a CR of 4.
Now, cross correlate each of those CRs with the party level on Table 2-6, and you'll end up with the following:
Orc warrior: 150 xp(300/2=150)
Orc rogue: 900 xp
Orc adept: 900 xp
Orc fighter: 1,200 xp
Now, you need to take the quantities of the monsters into consideration, so:
total experience=150(13)+900(2)+900+1200
total experience=5850
Now, you have 6 party members, so divide the total experience by 6 to get an award of 975 experience to each member of the party. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 18:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Bendal
Kentinal,
Thank you so much for the link to the XP calculator! The calculations were becoming so complicated that I was starting to wonder if it was even possible to work out the XP amount to award the PC's.
Well a spreadsheet could have been used as well, this tool though isquicker. Oh it is not mine, just one thing I found to be useful. There are other calculators out there as well including one that deals with higher then 20 levels, http://bssteph.irtonline.org/gaming/dnd/dnd_exp_calc.html , however this one does not calculate the encounter level or expected treasure.
quote:
I do disagree with the "overpowering" rating given the encounter by the program. It was a very difficult fight for the PC's and took a large amount of their resources (all their offensive spells and several charges from a wand of cure light wounds), but an overpowering fight IMO is one that they had no chance to win.
The calculator have one more level of difficulty, Unbeatable, Over powering means that the battle will consume much of party resources (perhaps a few PC deaths, but can be won. Also one should remember this is a number cruncher. The tactics employed, the actual party resources, the dice rolls all can effect the actual difficulty a party will have. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 18:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
The orc fighter has a CR of 4.
Now, cross correlate each of those CRs with the party level on Table 2-6, and you'll end up with the following:
Orc warrior: 150 xp(300/2=150)
Orc rogue: 900 xp
Orc adept: 900 xp
Orc fighter: 1,200 xp
Now, you need to take the quantities of the monsters into consideration, so:
total experience=150(13)+900(2)+900+1200
total experience=5850
Now, you have 6 party members, so divide the total experience by 6 to get an award of 975 experience to each member of the party.
Minor detail CR4 for Level 3 PCs is 1,350 not 1,200
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_DMG_XPFinal.asp
Unless this has later been changed.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bendal
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 18:53:46
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Kentinal,
I guess what the computer considers "overpowering" I considered a match between equal strength forces. Obviously the PC's couldn't expect to fight multiple battles like this one before resting, but equally obviously neither could the orcs! Their leader wanted to overwhelm the PC's and used every resource he had at hand in an attempt to do so, and came close to accomplishing it.
Arivia,
I had been trying to use the DMG explanations on XP calculation procedures, and like a lot of other things in that book found it to be very unclear and overly vague. I'd hardly consider my comments "totally off target", considering I was trying to use the CR of the orcs but was having trouble calculating the total from the various levels of opponents in that one battle. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 19:14:42
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There has been often questions concerning the difference between CR and EL so I also do not see the question an odd one.
Also the EL is used as a guide for amount of treasure as opposed to the collective personal wealth of each individual member of the group. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 19:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Minor detail CR4 for Level 3 PCs is 1,350 not 1,200
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_DMG_XPFinal.asp
Unless this has later been changed.
You're right-serves me right for trying to do it all in my head.
quote:
Originally posted by Bendal
Arivia,
I had been trying to use the DMG explanations on XP calculation procedures, and like a lot of other things in that book found it to be very unclear and overly vague. I'd hardly consider my comments "totally off target", considering I was trying to use the CR of the orcs but was having trouble calculating the total from the various levels of opponents in that one battle.
By totally off target, I meant that the amount you were going to arrive at was completely wrong from the actual amount. I'm sorry if I offended you.
And I understand you had problems-I was just trying to help. |
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Bendal
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 19:50:49
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Arivia,
Thanks for going through the calculations using the DMG. Calculating the XP level for one of each opponent level and then multiplying that value by the number of opponents makes sense and was what was messing me up. Your calculations and the program's calculations are close enough together that I'm satisfied that the program is using the DMG process, and it allows me to avoid having to do it myself. |
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XP calculation question
