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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 29 May 2005 : 08:46:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Which is why Richs ruling falls flat on its arse (insidently is Rich also over ruling the 3.5 Monster manual as well as it states that Planetouched are humans)
The Tiefling/Aasimar and Genasi where designed for humans ie they reflect a an Outsider/Human blending when it comes to there stats.
What does a Dwarven Tielfling get for Ability bonus?
Does it get a +2 Con -4 Cha +2 Dex +2?
What about all the Dwarves Racial abilities like +2 Poison, +1 Attack role against orcs, +4 dodge bonus against Giants etc
Now lets make it even more complicate what happans if its a Halfling Tiefling? Tiefling are Medium, Halflings are small and they gain special bonus from that and other racial sources
Planetouched are designed as RACES not TEMPLATES and they cant just be slapped over any race and say its Planetouched with out a great deal of reworking and confusion
That's right. They are thier own race descended from a humanoid and a half-fiend. Because of this they have thier own stat mods no matter what thier parent's are. Do you see half-elves having different stat mods depending on which subrace thier elven parent might have been?
A tiefling that is descended from a dwarf and a half-fiend get's the same mods as a normal standard tiefling or the mods of the variant tiefling that is specific to dwarves, like the Fey'ri are sometimes to gold elves. A tiefling descended from a halfling and a half-fiend would still have the same stats as a normal tiefling or the stats of the variant tiefling that is specific to halfings, just like the Fey'ri. It doesn't matter what it's mortal ancestor is because by the time a planetouched is born it's 2nd or 100th generation and its mortal blood is diluted enough that it makes it its own race.
Even in Planescape, where tieflings, assimar, and genasi where introduced said this. Those races had basic stat mods that was the same across the board no matter what humanoid they are descended from.
FR material always overwrites core material for the FR setting as well. This is why drow in FR have different skin tones then the skin tones found in 1/2/3/3.5e except for that one FR book called Underdark.
And we are highjacking this thread. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 29 May 2005 08:58:40 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 09:08:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
That's right. They are thier own race descended from a humanoid and a half-fiend. Because of this they have thier own stat mods no matter what thier parent's are. Do you see half-elves having different stat mods depending on which subrace thier elven parent might have been?
A tiefling that is descended from a dwarf and a half-fiend get's the same mods as a normal standard tiefling or the mods of the variant tiefling that is specific to dwarves, like the Fey'ri are sometimes to gold elves. A tiefling descended from a halfling and a half-fiend would still have the same stats as a normal tiefling or the stats of the variant tiefling that is specific to halfings, just like the Fey'ri.
Even in Planescape, where tieflings, assimar, and genasi were introduced said this. Those races had basic stat mods that was the same across the board no matter what humanoid they are descended from.
FR material always overwrites core material for the FR setting as well. This is why drow in FR have different skin tones then the skin tones found in 1/2/3/3.5e except for that one FR book called Underdark.
And we are highjacking this thread. :)
A Tiefling descended from a Dwarf/Halfling and Human are not the same thing
A Tiefling is not designed to be applied to other races. The Tiefling gets a +2 Int +2 Dex -2 Cha and get an ECL of 1 this fine if your dealing with a Human as they get No stat bonus at creation and the race is more or less compatable with Tieflings ie no skill bonus etc and the same size
What your saying makes no sense when you apply it to other races
Let us assume that a Halfling and a Half fiend Halfling Breed
Both the Halfling and the Half Fiend Halfling are Size small
Why on earth would they would give birth to a Medium size Tiefling? It makes absolutley no sense. The ruling makes as much sense as someone saying that the PHB Half Elf race is what you get when a Human breeds with anything ie a Dwarf/Gnome/Halfling/Elf etc
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 12:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Something else I wouldnt mind seeing is non human planetouched theres mention of some in the FRC but there not stated out.
One I wouldnt mind seeing is a Drow/Planetouched (What you get when a Drageloth breeds with a drow)
Not possible. As we're told on page 8 of Champions of Ruin:
"Draegloths are genderless, sexless creatures incapable of procreation."
........  I guess WOTC forgot to tell James Wyatt (COSQ has a FEMALE Drageloth called Flenser)
Not all Half-Fiend Drow are Draegloths, after all Draegloths are created via a special ritual.
Be interesting to see if Quenthal's agreement bears fruit 
It won`t. Pharaun left the sucker trapped in nevermelting magic ice.
That was a different Demon, and he was destroyed. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 17:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DargothA Tiefling descended from a Dwarf/Halfling and Human are not the same thing
A Tiefling is not designed to be applied to other races. The Tiefling gets a +2 Int +2 Dex -2 Cha and get an ECL of 1 this fine if your dealing with a Human as they get No stat bonus at creation and the race is more or less compatable with Tieflings ie no skill bonus etc and the same size
What your saying makes no sense when you apply it to other races
Let us assume that a Halfling and a Half fiend Halfling Breed
Both the Halfling and the Half Fiend Halfling are Size small
Why on earth would they would give birth to a Medium size Tiefling? It makes absolutley no sense. The ruling makes as much sense as someone saying that the PHB Half Elf race is what you get when a Human breeds with anything ie a Dwarf/Gnome/Halfling/Elf etc
According to all 2e lore and the Player's Guide they are the same thing and it is designed to apply to all humanoids.
I gave you the reason why it is the way it is. You're looking at this from a stat point of view and I'm looking at this as a offspring of two beings. So what if they two were small sized? Who says that the fiendish blood doesn't make the child medium sized? Sure it might kill it's mother but it's descended from a fiend! It has evil blood in it's veins.
No that's not what the PHB says since there are half-dwarves. Do you see half-elves getting different stat mods based on which subrace of elves they are descended from? No they have one stat mod and that's it.
A half-fiend is still a race even though it's a template now in 3e and like I said it also depends on what generation the tiefling is since tieflings are 2nd to some other # you want to use generation offspring.
But take it up with Rich then because this is what he's said and this is how it stands. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 29 May 2005 17:37:57 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 18:09:50
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I just see the stats for planetouched as mechanics to approximate some effect in a gaming situation.
The rules can't accomodate creating separate stats for every, single combination of planetouched and terrestrial race. Perhaps you could argue that planetouched should have been crafted as templates that you apply to a race, that might have worked better.
However, the planetouched were created as playable races, and yes the assumption seems to be that the base terrestrial stock is human, which certainly does seem to lose some of the flavor of having a genasi elf or a tiefling halfling.
My solution is to not let oneself get hung up by the game mechanics of it. If you are creating a genasi gnome for instance, then you should certainly make your case to your DM that for flavor reasons you would like to sub-out some of the racial characteristics that are obviously human for some that are more gnomish in flavor. I can't see a DM having a problem with that. I certainly wouldn't anyway.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 02:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My solution is to not let oneself get hung up by the game mechanics of it. If you are creating a genasi gnome for instance, then you should certainly make your case to your DM that for flavor reasons you would like to sub-out some of the racial characteristics that are obviously human for some that are more gnomish in flavor. I can't see a DM having a problem with that. I certainly wouldn't anyway.
And I would agree.
As I've said so many times on these boards, if there's a creative and flavorful justification for why an element should exist in the Realms, then rules and mechanics should not stand in the way of using that particular element to enhance the story/adventure in an campaign. It's an option I've always allowed my players as DM, and I don't see myself changing any time soon.
In fact, that reference from RoF that I mentioned earlier -
quote:
In fact, I recall something in the tome being written about the origins of the various planetouched being as different as the forms of planetouched themselves.
That would seem to provide a convenient base for any DM to use for the creative origin of any type of planetouched.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 15:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
According to all 2e lore and the Player's Guide they are the same thing and it is designed to apply to all humanoids.
I gave you the reason why it is the way it is. You're looking at this from a stat point of view and I'm looking at this as a offspring of two beings. So what if they two were small sized? Who says that the fiendish blood doesn't make the child medium sized? Sure it might kill it's mother but it's descended from a fiend! It has evil blood in it's veins.
No that's not what the PHB says since there are half-dwarves. Do you see half-elves getting different stat mods based on which subrace of elves they are descended from? No they have one stat mod and that's it.
A half-fiend is still a race even though it's a template now in 3e and like I said it also depends on what generation the tiefling is since tieflings are 2nd to some other # you want to use generation offspring.
But take it up with Rich then because this is what he's said and this is how it stands. :)
Well I guess where just going to have to agree to disagree, it wasnt the first time and I doubt it will be the last.
I suggest we give Tom his thread back after our mini flame war, hopefully Tom hasnt been sent screaming into the hills 
(Although given where Tom works he should be used to them)  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 30 May 2005 15:27:34 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 19:14:23
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Whew, go away for a few days and you can miss a lot.
Uhm, regarding the planetouched and draegoloth gender issues, which I don't wish to reignite, I've always viewed planetouched as a reference with an outsider or elemental ancestor close enough in their family lineage that they still manifest special qualities. I view tieflings and aasimar as being of primarily human stock, and with the other official examples of planetouched allow for almoast limitless permutations depending on the primary mortal race and type of outsider/elemental. As for draegloth gender, I think we can agree that such a mating, particularly with the chaotic genomes of demons, can allow for innumerable permutations. Since we can be born with gender-oriented physical birth defects (both sets of genitals for example), who to say what happens when a demon gets involved beyond "yuck." All that said, I think we will continue to see new varieties of planetouched, and I for one am all for it. I like the specific over the generic in this case, but I don't anticipate adding any to Bestiary II.
Regarding the ogrillons and having the same height bonuses of a half-giant, in fact, I've included a couple regional/racial feats to do just that. I considered making it a part of their basic write-up, but as of the moment, still like the variability more.
Regarding lythari. I don't feel strongly about reworking them. Their differences with true lycanthropes are fairly minor and easily summarized in a paragraph that would modify typical werewolves -- not realy curse, only two forms, always elves, etc. -- as has already been done in this thread.
And lastly regarding flaming, this thread, and my job.... If this thread is defined as flaming, whew, we've got a ways nastier to go IMHO. This was pretty tame and I found the discussion interesting as far as it went. Work can be pretty intense, but I'm not often in the thick of things if I can help it. ;-) |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 19:25:22
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| That`s one of the things I like so much about these forums, Tom. Even while having an argument people here tend to be rather polite(unlike some other forums I know.......) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 04:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
And lastly regarding flaming, this thread, and my job.... If this thread is defined as flaming, whew, we've got a ways nastier to go IMHO. This was pretty tame and I found the discussion interesting as far as it went. Work can be pretty intense, but I'm not often in the thick of things if I can help it. ;-)
I just find it amazing that are you able to get as much done as you do.
Keep up the great work Tom!! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 21:47:05
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I was just persuing old threads (looking for one in particular) when I stumbled across this one...
Tom, any progress or updates on Volume 2 of the Bestiary? |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:39:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I was just persuing old threads (looking for one in particular) when I stumbled across this one...
Tom, any progress or updates on Volume 2 of the Bestiary?
Wow it has been awhile since anything has been mentioned on this.
Aye I second Wooly's thoughts.
Tom, any word of your progress? |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 04:38:55
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| I would like to "third" Wooly & Warlocko's thoughts. I've no desire to rush great art, but am eager to see the finished work. If cheering you on Tom like they do at a marathon will help ease your path down that final stretch, then just visualize us slapping a gatorade in your hand while the crowd roars "Tom! Tom! Tom!" and cheers you to the finish line. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 13:17:13
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And put this humble dwarf in the choir for Tom! I´m eager, too, to see the new work of Tom, and I consider the first volume of the Bestiary one of the most useful books to Dms...
So, cheers up to Tom! |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
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Thysl
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 17:21:00
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Ditto! I love the first one and use it often, time for another!!
Thysl |
There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 23:24:39
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| Sorry guys. I ended up just changing jobs, but going through a fairly exhaustive search for a month or so prior. In any case, I'm way behind and haven't cracked the file in some time. My goal is for the end of next month now, but I may have to say end of the year. I want to try and get 102 monsters for the file and I have around 80+ completed or close to completed and about 15 just started. Thanks for your patience and your anticipation and my apologies for not living up to my own deadlines. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 01:50:15
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Sorry guys. I ended up just changing jobs, but going through a fairly exhaustive search for a month or so prior. In any case, I'm way behind and haven't cracked the file in some time. My goal is for the end of next month now, but I may have to say end of the year. I want to try and get 102 monsters for the file and I have around 80+ completed or close to completed and about 15 just started. Thanks for your patience and your anticipation and my apologies for not living up to my own deadlines.
We understand completely Tom, as some of us have also had to endure such trials from time to time .
Still, it good to hear things are now picking up. I look forward to your efforts on this .
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2005 : 12:57:34
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And mine are the desires of Warlocko, The Sage and Wooly. I, too, am buried under a pile of unfinished works in all the areas of life.... I think that a little more time will be helpful, so I´m considering cloning or lichdom...
Good luck and best wishes in your new job, Tom! We here at the Keep desire only the best for all the authors and designers of our loved Realms.
Cheers up!
Chosen of Moradin, listening Nightwish and preparing a great "run for the beholdeeer! next game session. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
992 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 20:41:34
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| In a word, abysmal. I don't want to keep making date promises I'm not keeping or excuses, they're the same as before. Also, now that Dragon Magazine seems to be catching up with old submissions, I'm going to wait a bit longer to see on getting it done. I'm considering scaling back a bit and only having fewer monsters than the 102 I originally planned on having. Sorry guys and gals. It'll happen. I just don't know when. Again, my apologies. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 21:24:32
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| Hey, there's no need to apologize! You're doing this for us, so we'll wait. Maybe not patiently, but we'll wait. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2006 : 01:34:45
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Yeah, don't sweat it Tom. I'm looking forward to it, but no pressure.
Although, if you want someone to crack the whip, I bet lovely lady Hooded One would volunteer. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 2
