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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2005 : 00:15:01
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Something else I wouldnt mind seeing is non human planetouched theres mention of some in the FRC but there not stated out.
One I wouldnt mind seeing is a Drow/Planetouched (What you get when a Drageloth breeds with a drow)
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 01:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Something else I wouldnt mind seeing is non human planetouched theres mention of some in the FRC but there not stated out.
One I wouldnt mind seeing is a Drow/Planetouched (What you get when a Drageloth breeds with a drow)
Not possible. As we're told on page 8 of Champions of Ruin:
"Draegloths are genderless, sexless creatures incapable of procreation." |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 01:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Something else I wouldnt mind seeing is non human planetouched theres mention of some in the FRC but there not stated out.
One I wouldnt mind seeing is a Drow/Planetouched (What you get when a Drageloth breeds with a drow)
Not possible. As we're told on page 8 of Champions of Ruin:
"Draegloths are genderless, sexless creatures incapable of procreation."
Yep, Champions of Ruin changed it to where they can't reproduce. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 04:44:44
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| Wait . . . Jeggred was genderless? The last two books of WOTSQ suddenly make even less sense . . . |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 05:37:45
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Well then, perhaps you could look at Jeggred as a unique case. Something that was not a product of the norm.
Game rules are rules, but they don't always have to square with what is written in the novels.
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 05:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well then, perhaps you could look at Jeggred as a unique case. Something that was not a product of the norm.
Game rules are rules, but they don't always have to square with what is written in the novels.
True, but I just ignore the genderless part, and let them have gender, just they are sterile is all 
While a "normal" half-fiend drow would be fertile. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 06:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
How about a non-lycanthropic variant of the Lythari?
That's actually an excellent idea... The lythari weren't intro'ed as lycanthropes, so it was irksome to see them lumped in with that lot.
Couldn't agree more Wooly, and I rather like werewolves at least after reading Dave Gross's parts of the Sembia series (as well as Mistress of the Night, which he co-authored). |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 06:42:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
How about a non-lycanthropic variant of the Lythari?
That's actually an excellent idea... The lythari weren't intro'ed as lycanthropes, so it was irksome to see them lumped in with that lot.
Couldn't agree more Wooly, and I rather like werewolves at least after reading Dave Gross's parts of the Sembia series (as well as Mistress of the Night, which he co-authored).
I thought they were "lycanthropic" in the old lore, just only elves could contract the curse from them, and as a general rule, they almost never bite other elves. Or am I getting the new stuff mixed up with the old stuff? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 07:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
How about a non-lycanthropic variant of the Lythari?
That's actually an excellent idea... The lythari weren't intro'ed as lycanthropes, so it was irksome to see them lumped in with that lot.
Couldn't agree more Wooly, and I rather like werewolves at least after reading Dave Gross's parts of the Sembia series (as well as Mistress of the Night, which he co-authored).
I thought they were "lycanthropic" in the old lore, just only elves could contract the curse from them, and as a general rule, they almost never bite other elves. Or am I getting the new stuff mixed up with the old stuff?
It wasn't a curse. It could be passed on to an elf in a ritual, but only if both elf and lythari were willing. Otherwise, lythari reproduce just like any other race.
Lythari had some of the immunities of lycanthropes, but not other features. They had the immunity to everything but silver, but they lacked the hybrid (Crinos) form that werewolves have. And no worries about secondary effects from a lythari bite -- it'll hurt and you'll bleed, but you'll not be needing a serious shave on the next full moon, as you would with a werewolf bite.
Lythari are more like a slightly enhanced kind of elven shapeshifter than anything else. They can only shift to one other form -- a wolf -- but they've got some added protections, too. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 08:14:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
How about a non-lycanthropic variant of the Lythari?
That's actually an excellent idea... The lythari weren't intro'ed as lycanthropes, so it was irksome to see them lumped in with that lot.
Couldn't agree more Wooly, and I rather like werewolves at least after reading Dave Gross's parts of the Sembia series (as well as Mistress of the Night, which he co-authored).
I thought they were "lycanthropic" in the old lore, just only elves could contract the curse from them, and as a general rule, they almost never bite other elves. Or am I getting the new stuff mixed up with the old stuff?
It wasn't a curse. It could be passed on to an elf in a ritual, but only if both elf and lythari were willing. Otherwise, lythari reproduce just like any other race.
Lythari had some of the immunities of lycanthropes, but not other features. They had the immunity to everything but silver, but they lacked the hybrid (Crinos) form that werewolves have. And no worries about secondary effects from a lythari bite -- it'll hurt and you'll bleed, but you'll not be needing a serious shave on the next full moon, as you would with a werewolf bite.
Lythari are more like a slightly enhanced kind of elven shapeshifter than anything else. They can only shift to one other form -- a wolf -- but they've got some added protections, too.
Thanks Wooly, thought I had mixed up, but wasn't sure. Lythari aren't one of my strengths, Drow on the other hand.... |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 09:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Something else I wouldnt mind seeing is non human planetouched theres mention of some in the FRC but there not stated out.
One I wouldnt mind seeing is a Drow/Planetouched (What you get when a Drageloth breeds with a drow)
Not possible. As we're told on page 8 of Champions of Ruin:
"Draegloths are genderless, sexless creatures incapable of procreation."
........  I guess WOTC forgot to tell James Wyatt (COSQ has a FEMALE Drageloth called Flenser) |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 18:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Something else I wouldnt mind seeing is non human planetouched theres mention of some in the FRC but there not stated out.
One I wouldnt mind seeing is a Drow/Planetouched (What you get when a Drageloth breeds with a drow)
Not possible. As we're told on page 8 of Champions of Ruin:
"Draegloths are genderless, sexless creatures incapable of procreation."
........ I guess WOTC forgot to tell James Wyatt (COSQ has a FEMALE Drageloth called Flenser)
Not all Half-Fiend Drow are Draegloths, after all Draegloths are created via a special ritual.
Be interesting to see if Quenthal's agreement bears fruit  |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 18:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Something else I wouldnt mind seeing is non human planetouched theres mention of some in the FRC but there not stated out.
One I wouldnt mind seeing is a Drow/Planetouched (What you get when a Drageloth breeds with a drow)
Not possible. As we're told on page 8 of Champions of Ruin:
"Draegloths are genderless, sexless creatures incapable of procreation."
........ I guess WOTC forgot to tell James Wyatt (COSQ has a FEMALE Drageloth called Flenser)
Not all Half-Fiend Drow are Draegloths, after all Draegloths are created via a special ritual.
Be interesting to see if Quenthal's agreement bears fruit
It won`t. Pharaun left the sucker trapped in nevermelting magic ice. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 19:04:39
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| I think, in this case, I have to try to find the middle ground, which in my mind would be that Dregloths are sterile, but not neccisarily genderless. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 00:58:55
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Perhaps they should WOTC should dump the Planetouch as a race and use and rewrite the Half templates.
A cool thing (although potentially complicated) to do might be to turn creating an Half/Planetouched into a smorgus board where the player picks and chooses from their Outisder parent (or grand Parents) abilities.
You add up all the Outsiders abilities and assign each an "ECL Weight" the player may then choose half of the parents abilities. So if the Outsider has 8 abilities then the Half spawn may choose 4 of those powers now if the player playing the Half spawn chooses the most power 4 of its parents powers then he will have a higher ECL then say another player who chooses the same outsider but chooses 4 of the less powerful abilities. A Planetouched creature would only be able to choose 2 of its Half spawn parents abilities when the planetouched is created.
What do you guys think?
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Emperor Sigismund
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Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Perhaps they should WOTC should dump the Planetouch as a race and use and rewrite the Half templates.
A cool thing (although potentially complicated) to do might be to turn creating an Half/Planetouched into a smorgus board where the player picks and chooses from their Outisder parent (or grand Parents) abilities.
You add up all the Outsiders abilities and assign each an "ECL Weight" the player may then choose half of the parents abilities. So if the Outsider has 8 abilities then the Half spawn may choose 4 of those powers now if the player playing the Half spawn chooses the most power 4 of its parents powers then he will have a higher ECL then say another player who chooses the same outsider but chooses 4 of the less powerful abilities. A Planetouched creature would only be able to choose 2 of its Half spawn parents abilities when the planetouched is created.
What do you guys think?
I dunno... I like some of the planetouched races as they already are, particularly the fey'ri and the various breeds of genasi. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:30:18
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You could still have a Fey'ri you'd just build the current Fey'ris components from the list same with Genasi
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 02:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
You could still have a Fey'ri you'd just build the current Fey'ris components from the list same with Genasi
But why? Again, I have zero problems with them as they are already written. I see no need to rebuild something that's already built satisfactorily. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 03:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
You could still have a Fey'ri you'd just build the current Fey'ris components from the list same with Genasi
But why? Again, I have zero problems with them as they are already written. I see no need to rebuild something that's already built satisfactorily.
I have to agree with Wooly. In addition, the planetouched of 3e are a wonderful conversion from the previous 2e material, so I could never truly appreciate any reason for altering them as they are now.
My only real current gripe about such racial characteristics is for the cambions in 3e, which I still feel have lost some of that 2e charm thatmade them popular.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 04:43:57
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Because most of the Planetouched are only for those descended from Humans and outsiders
With the few exceptions theres nothing for all the other rares |
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Emperor Sigismund
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 05:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Because most of the Planetouched are only for those descended from Humans and outsiders
With the few exceptions theres nothing for all the other rares
I've had this arguement with you before and the planetouched are descended from any humanoid. :) Some just are made from a specific race but standard tieflings, genasi, and aasimar can be descended from any and all humanoids. The Player's Guide further clarified this and so did Rich. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 06:00:00
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I'm not sure where you learned that Dargoth.
As Kuje just stated, there's pretty much a planetouched variant for most humanoid races now. In addition to the reference from PGtF, Races of Faerun also touches (no pun intended  ) on the particulars for the origins of planetouched. In fact, I recall something in the tome being written about the origins of the various planetouched being as different as the forms of planetouched themselves.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 06:28:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not sure where you learned that Dargoth.
As Kuje just stated, there's pretty much a planetouched variant for most humanoid races now. In addition to the reference from PGtF, Races of Faerun also touches (no pun intended ) on the particulars for the origins of planetouched. In fact, I recall something in the tome being written about the origins of the various planetouched being as different as the forms of planetouched themselves.
To be far to Dargoth the 3/3.5 MM's and other generic material and the early FR material does say that most of the standard planetouch are descended from humans and not humanoids but as I said above the Player's Guide added a planetouched subtype. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 06:32:33
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Umm if your read the Planetouched Chapter of ROF it repeatedly says that they are a mix of outsider and HUMAN blood
Aasimar: "Aasimars are the descendant of humans and some Good outsider..."
Air Genasi: "Air Genasi are descended from Outsiders native to the elemental plane of air and HUMANS"
Earth Genasi: Are descended from outsiders native to the elemental plane of Earth or earth deities and their servants and humans.... The Shield Dwarves of Earthspurs and the Tobarin family of rock gnomes in the great dale have elemental blood..... neither would be a true genasi but something quite different
Fire Genasi: "A large family of Fire GenasiLIKE halflings was known to live in Unther..."
Tieflings: "Tieflings are the distant descendants of a HUMAN and some evil outsiders"
Water Genasi: ..Water genasi are often abandoned by their human parents.." Aquatic elves tell of a lost line of sea elf planetouched descened from minions of Deep Sashelas BUT THESE ARE NOT TRUE WATER GENASI
ROF repeatedly says that the planetoched are HUMAN only, it also makes frequent mention of other races that contain outsider blood but they are NOT Tieflings/Aasimars/Genasi
Fey'ri and Tannurucks are the only exceptions
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 07:26:40
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| Yes but the Player's Guide overwrites that with the planetouched subtype. :) And so has Rich with the reply he said to both of us last year when the book came out. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 29 May 2005 07:27:54 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 07:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Yes but the Player's Guide overwrites that with the planetouched subtype. :) And so has Rich with the reply he said to both of us last year when the book came out.
So its basicly another case of "If theres a piece of published Realmslore thats inconvient, just ignore it and pretend it was never there.... |
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Emperor Sigismund
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 07:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Yes but the Player's Guide overwrites that with the planetouched subtype. :) And so has Rich with the reply he said to both of us last year when the book came out.
Not to throw more fuel on this fire, but the only reference I can find to a "planetouched" subtype appears in the variant rules appendix, in the entry for lesser planetouched. As such, it's not really applicable to the discussion. Even if it were, the "planetouched" subtype is to the humanoid is analagous to what the native subtype is to the outsider; it doesn't have anything at all to do with the ancestry of the creature. To extend this short description to argue that the planetouched races represent all humanoid-outsider combinations is a somewhat fallacious argument*. There are several planetouched races out there that aren't human, like they fey'ri, tanarukk, and the Fiend Folio's maeluth (dwarf-devil) and wispling (halfling-demon); the existence of racially-specific planetouched races suggests that each racial combination should have its unique set of abilities, and the "baseline" (FRCS) planetouched should really be safely assumed as human.
*It is actually counter-intuitive: you only add the planetouched subtype to the humanoid type, without adding the racial subtypes, like elf or orc, that you would also add if you were dealing with an elven or orcish planetouched. The PGtF "lesser planetouched" goes from Outsider (native) to Humanoid (planetouched), not to Humanoid (elf, planetouched), or anything else (note that when PGtF was published, the idea of a "human" subtype wasn't yet conceived). It's a direct change, and one which assumes that you're moving from the mainline FRCS, which itself assumes that your planetouched character is a human planetouched. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 08:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Yes but the Player's Guide overwrites that with the planetouched subtype. :) And so has Rich with the reply he said to both of us last year when the book came out.
So its basicly another case of "If theres a piece of published Realmslore thats inconvient, just ignore it and pretend it was never there....
I wouldn't say that. It is still your game after all. You can choose which ever interpretation you prefer, just so long as you remember the differences between the older material and that which was published in PGtF and stated by Rich.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 08:17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen ThalNot to throw more fuel on this fire, but the only reference I can find to a "planetouched" subtype appears in the variant rules appendix, in the entry for lesser planetouched. As such, it's not really applicable to the discussion. Even if it were, the "planetouched" subtype is to the humanoid is analagous to what the native subtype is to the outsider; it doesn't have anything at all to do with the ancestry of the creature. To extend this short description to argue that the planetouched races represent all humanoid-outsider combinations is a somewhat fallacious argument*. There are several planetouched races out there that aren't human, like they fey'ri, tanarukk, and the Fiend Folio's maeluth (dwarf-devil) and wispling (halfling-demon); the existence of racially-specific planetouched races suggests that each racial combination should have its unique set of abilities, and the "baseline" (FRCS) planetouched should really be safely assumed as human.
It is applicable because that is what Rich Baker told us to use last year when that book came out. Standard tieflings, and other plane touched, are the offspring of any humanoid races and a half-fiend, a creature of the elemental planes, or a uppoer planar but some tieflings and planetouched, like the Fey'ri, are also descended from elves which are also humanoids and a half-fiend.
Page 28 of last year's ask the game designer thread, On 3/24/04, Rich said "OK, I think I see.
Each planetouched race is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what the humanoid genealogy is--you're a planetouched, and it doesn't matter if you have dwarf, or elf, or human, or orc, or whatever in your family tree.
However, there are a couple of exceptions to that rule. Fey'ri are clearly descended from elves and demons. Durzagons are clearly descended from duergar and devils. The existence of the fey'ri and durzagons doesn't imply that *every* humanoid race creates a planetouched derivative with unique characteristics--it simply means that some distinct racial types with tiefling-like derivations are possible. Some elf-demon heritages will result in "standard" tieflings, others (sun elves and succubi, I suppose, removed by a generation or two) will result in fey'ri.
It's really a question of "flavor" text surrounding the race. The racial qualities and rules are spelled out pretty precisely for all these guys." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 29 May 2005 08:54:40 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 08:39:05
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Which is why Richs ruling falls flat on its arse (insidently is Rich also over ruling the 3.5 Monster manual as well as it states that Planetouched are humans)
The Tiefling/Aasimar and Genasi where designed for humans ie they reflect a an Outsider/Human blending when it comes to there stats.
What does a Dwarven Tielfling get for Ability bonus?
Does it get a +2 Con -4 Cha +2 Dex +2?
What about all the Dwarves Racial abilities like +2 Poison, +1 Attack role against orcs, +4 dodge bonus against Giants etc
Now lets make it even more complicate what happans if its a Halfling Tiefling? Tiefling are Medium, Halflings are small and they gain special bonus from that and other racial sources
Planetouched are designed as RACES not TEMPLATES and they cant just be slapped over any race and say its Planetouched with out a great deal of reworking and confusion |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 2
