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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2005 : 12:57:16
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As we all know after Karsus casts his 12th level "Karsus instant god spell" Netheril falls and Mystra bans all spells greater than 9th.
Having just reread chapter 9 of Evermeet which covers the creation of Evermeet by the Elven high mages it got me thinking, Did Correleon do something similar to the Elves.
Starleaf sees the following "And even as she watched the tattered Weave began to repair itself - dimmer over much of the world, true but bright and fair upon the island"
During his conversation with Starleaf he says "Within this tree lies the power of High magic a power that even now is fading from the land. In time only on Evermeet will such magic be cast"
Id interupt those 2 quotes to mean that Corellon has just restricted Elven High magic (read Higher than 9th level arcane spells) to Evermeet. Presumably Elven high mages could still cast 10+ level arcane spells on Evermeet but no where else.
Coments?
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 09 May 2005 12:58:09
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 14:39:46
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Having problems posting, lost last post.
Even in 2nd Edition High Magic was somewhat limited to Evermeet. It could only be learned on Evermeet and High Magi could only gain levels when on Evermeet.
There might be a tend to limit the casting of High Magic a little more in 3rd, however I suspect it is more designed to force the Elves to use Epic magic rules and in effect do away with High Magic as something different.
Some of the Epic spells are more powerful then High Magic and we have also seen what used to b 10th (or was it 12t) level spell being now cast as Epic magic. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 17:20:42
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I'd read that as saying that the High Magic part of the Weave was damaged... Or that the damage to the Weave was such that magic was somewhat diluted after that big draw, and only at focal points such as Evermeet does it retain a semblance of its former might.
I don't really see that passage as indicating that Corellon was responsible for limiting High Magic, but I can see how that argument could be made. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 19:22:53
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This situation is confused by the fact that there are two different 2e versions of High Magic. The first, introduced in Elves of Evermeet, was sort of shoe-horned onto the normal 9 levels of magic, and I believe you are correct, could only be cast on Evermeet.
The second, and more complete version, came out in Cormanthyr, and provided a much better version (in my opinion) of High Magic, including what it took to train them (100 years of hard work), and the benefits High Magi gained. In this version, High Magic could be cast anywhere, however, after Mystryl's fall the Weave was damaged. This is one of the reasons elves hate the Neth, because in their fall they severely damaged this uniquely elven magic.
The end result is that, if you cast High Magic anywhere other than Evermeet (where Corellon protected it), you had to roll on the Table Of Bad Things. Among the Bad Things that could happen is: death, permanent loss of all magical ability, stat loss, aging, and insanity. The option of "nothing" didn't even exist until after the ToT, and for 900 years after Netheri's fall, the options started at "caster ages 1d10 years" and got worse very quickly.
So the answer to your question is that High Magic was restricted to Evermeet, in that if you cast it outside of the island you risked some serious consquences. However, the cause of this was Karsus breaking the Weave, not Corellon. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 20:37:53
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| What`s the difference between High magic and "normal" magic? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 21:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
What`s the difference between High magic and "normal" magic?
Under this version I am still trying to figure that out.
It used to be High Magic = Elven Magic 8th level and higher spells (under 2nd Elves had a level limitation that prevented being able to even cast 8th level spells).
"normal" magic is what all non elves and prehaps some elves used to cast arcane magic.
It appears the 3rd Edition is trying to do away with Elven magic and 10th level spells replacing with Epic magic (more powerful then 9th level spells, but not 10th level or higher, however for calculations that require a spell level treat Epic spells as if 10th level).
Confused yet?
Sooner or later perhaps a designer will write something that pulls all of this together in an understandable way. For now I certainly am not sure what they are doing to the magic system. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 22:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It appears the 3rd Edition is trying to do away with Elven magic and 10th level spells replacing with Epic magic (more powerful then 9th level spells, but not 10th level or higher, however for calculations that require a spell level treat Epic spells as if 10th level).
And at least one spell that was 10th level in 2E is now Epic... |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 23:46:14
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[Warning: long post coming]
What is Elven High Magic (EHM)? Boy is that an interesting question. Primarily because the designers keep changing it.
The first time I noticed it (Elves of Evermeet), EHM was a series of rather powerful spells of level 8 or 9 that could only be cast by elves. A "High Mage" was described as any wizard who had exceeded the normal level limit. They could travel anywhere, though had to level up on Evermeet. Any 9th level or high magic spell they cast required a roll on consquences table. I'd like to note that there was a 50% chance of either no effect or 1d4 damage.
Then came Cormanthyr, and eveyrthing changed. It should be noted that the Cormanthyr box essentially did away with level limits, at least for mages (it was also set back in time, which is how the designers got away with it). EHM was now a series of rituals, requiring 1, 3, 5, or more High Mages to cast. The effects were generally more far ranging than the Elves of Evermeet EHM.
To become a High Mage, an elf needed to be a 17th level wizard, 450 years old, and have Con 12, Int 18, and Wis 18 at a bare minimum. THEN they studied for 100+ years to grasp the concepts. However, a main requirement for how many and how powerful rituals could be cast was age (in increments of 25 or 50 years), in addition to high ability scores.
Needless to say, it was an NPC class only.
It was also made clear that this was THE EHM that had been used throughout elven history on Faerun. Effort was made to marry this EHM with the prior EHM, however. It was noted that, over the centuries, "dummed down" version of High Magic rituals had been created that were actual wizard spells (the Rituals, though cast by wizards, were not spells in the normal sense). The "EHM" in Elves of Evermeet consisted of these "debased versions."
Then along came 3e, with its general disregard for everything that came before. I've stopped following 3e closely, so am perhaps not the proper person to pick up this part of the thread, but what I've figured out follows: EHM has suddenly become part of epic magic.
Epic magic was the (successful) attempt to get around Mystra's ban on 10th level spells (a ban, that I would like to note, may or may not have applied to elves, evidence is cloudy). The "Elven High Mage" became a prestige class (in the only time I'll defend PrC's, it pretty much was already in 2e), just like any other (with some specific bonuses on some castings), and "casting EHM" became normal epic magic. There was also some hand-waving along the lines of: "Yes, of course this is what EHM has always been. Trust us. Oh. You don't trust us?" (I'm not going to rant about this, only point out that epic magic didn't exist until after -339 DR, and the elves had been using EHM for, oh, TWELVE THOUSAND years before then.)
Sorry for the length, I hope this clears up (or at least makes clear) the confusion on "Elven High Magic." The short answer to "what is it" is: what book do you want to use? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 01:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd read that as saying that the High Magic part of the Weave was damaged... Or that the damage to the Weave was such that magic was somewhat diluted after that big draw, and only at focal points such as Evermeet does it retain a semblance of its former might.
I don't really see that passage as indicating that Corellon was responsible for limiting High Magic, but I can see how that argument could be made.
I'd probably read it as much the same myself.
However, given the elves greater connection to the Weave, it may simply have been a result of that connection which that allowed the elves to maintain a significant (however limited) ability for High Magic.
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jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 02:09:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Then along came 3e, with its general disregard for everything that came before. I've stopped following 3e closely, so am perhaps not the proper person to pick up this part of the thread, but what I've figured out follows: EHM has suddenly become part of epic magic.
Epic magic was the (successful) attempt to get around Mystra's ban on 10th level spells (a ban, that I would like to note, may or may not have applied to elves, evidence is cloudy). The "Elven High Mage" became a prestige class (in the only time I'll defend PrC's, it pretty much was already in 2e), just like any other (with some specific bonuses on some castings), and "casting EHM" became normal epic magic. There was also some hand-waving along the lines of: "Yes, of course this is what EHM has always been. Trust us. Oh. You don't trust us?" (I'm not going to rant about this, only point out that epic magic didn't exist until after -339 DR, and the elves had been using EHM for, oh, TWELVE THOUSAND years before then.)
Hmm, I'm confused. If elven High Magic was on the decline (as detailed in many recent novels, including the Mythal series, I believe), how is epic magic still unaffected? |
"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 02:24:39
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Just to chime in here and remind everyone why High Magic even exists:
The rules dictated this lore.
1st and 2nd edition D&D suffered from the horrible problem of Level Limits for Demi Humans, as I’m sure you know. Often on the same page, you also had a quick blurb about how elves love magic and are skilled in it’s use.
Instead of someone saying “You know what? Level Limits are dumb” (In 21 years of playing D&D, I’ve never had someone seriously enforce level limits) they simply created a “new” way of allowing Elves to cast higher level spells. Thus, Elven High Magic was born.
And, as far as these things really worked, it functioned, and became part of FR lore, integral to the history of the elves.
However, 3ed removed the level limits, and effectively made Elven High Magic pointless. Oh, sure, they made it into a nifty prestige class…well, okay, into a lackluster and flavorless prestige class, just to keep it around, but it’s nothing at all like it was meant to be, and doesn’t reflect the lore at all.
My solution:
Mystra said no spells above 9th level. So their aren’t any. Sure, you can go to “epic” levels, and be a 22nd level wizard, but no epic castings for you. Sorry. Divine law.
High magic, however, breaks the “rules”. High magic is epic level casting. Only on Evermeet, only by (NPC) elves who have studied and fit the requirements set down by FR lore, etc, etc. (Special cases, like El and Blackstaff, being chosen, are…well, special.)
I really think that 3rd edition FR fails to enforce Mystra’s ancient decree because it will sell more copies of the Epic Level Handbook.
Me? Jaded? Nah. [:p}
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-- C.S. Lewis |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 04:53:14
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No arguments here. Though I do like how high magic gives teeth to the "elves have deep knowledge of magic and can work magic beyond that which we mortal humans can" sentiments. It's got its own flavor, separate from "normal" magic. Part of the reason I like 2e psionics: they had a FEEL all their own.
I also agree that epic magic is essentially trying to get around Mystra's ban. I'm sorry. You want to cast 10th level magic? Go play in the time of the Netherese. That's why they created the Netheril boxed set. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 08:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
There was also some hand-waving along the lines of: "Yes, of course this is what EHM has always been. Trust us. Oh. You don't trust us?" (I'm not going to rant about this, only point out that epic magic didn't exist until after -339 DR, and the elves had been using EHM for, oh, TWELVE THOUSAND years before then.)
Umm, the above isn't quite right. Epic magic certainly did exist prior to -339 DR and the fall of Netheril. Mystra's Ban related to level 10+ spells, not epic magic spells (which are considered to be 10th level spells). The majority of the wizards of Netheril preferred to use level 10+ spells in lieu of epic magic spells. The elves of Faerun preferred epic magic which they termed High Magic. After -339 DR, there was no access to level 10+ spells save in terms of epic magic or metamagicked level 1-9 spells that had been enhanced to higher levels.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 09:17:36
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quote:
Umm, the above isn't quite right. Epic magic certainly did exist prior to -339 DR and the fall of Netheril. Mystra's Ban related to level 10+ spells, not epic magic spells (which are considered to be 10th level spells). The majority of the wizards of Netheril preferred to use level 10+ spells in lieu of epic magic spells. The elves of Faerun preferred epic magic which they termed High Magic. After -339 DR, there was no access to level 10+ spells save in terms of epic magic or metamagicked level 1-9 spells that had been enhanced to higher levels.
-- George Krashos
Yes but from reading the quotes in Evermeet it would seem that the Elves used 10+ levels spells ie like the Netherese, before and during the Sundering |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 14:32:39
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Greetings! Well if we compare the elven high magic to the Netherese magic, which is superior? Or are both equal in terms of power? For I am just wondering.
By the way, since Mystra banned all spells greater than 9th level, does Shar who controls the Shadow Weave permits such spells of above the 9th level to be casted since the ban does not apply to the Shadow Weave and if there are above 9th level spells for the Shadow Weave. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Adarin
Acolyte
30 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 14:40:32
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| Thats a very well...tricky question, Shadovar. I don't think the shadow weave can grant that great power of above the 9th level. Or if so, Telamont Tanthul would had been like Karse or near invincible. |
There will always be parting of ways which is never of your preference. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 16:26:34
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As to Shadow Weave 10th level spells there are two answers.
Game design appears to be as such that no 10th or higher level spells are permitted, use Epic magic rules instead.
Shadow Weave history, the cimimatic effect. Yes 10th level and higher Shadow Weave spells can be learned and cast. However it has been clearly inferred that Shar is not premitting them to be cast at this time to maintain the secercy of the Shadow Weave from Mystra and other deities. Remember the Shadow Weave is a copy of the Weave just hides in shadows of the Weave (where the Weave is presense and operates in dead Weave magic zones). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 18:56:24
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| Like I said, I haven't been paying much attention to 3e, and if I was mistaken, my appologies. What 3e has done to a perfectly good shared world makes me break out in hives, so forgive me if I got some things wrong. I'm sticking with 2e's version of magic. It made *sense*. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 00:32:11
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Wait…so, people can’t cast a 10th level spell…but they can still cast epic magic? Erm…I’m not really sure if that makes any sense at all.
Actually, it doesn’t make sense. If a mage from Netheril suddenly finds themselves unable to cast a prepared 10th level spell…it’s easy enough to just recreate it as an epic magic spell. Actually, given the epic magic rules, a few buddies to cast the spell with you and a place of power, you could make the same 10th level spell much more potent.
Mystra’s ban suddenly seems like more of a detour sign.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 01:00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Mystra’s ban suddenly seems like more of a detour sign.
Well that is impression I get as well, however a new source book might make more sense of this conversion. More or less it does not appear to make any sense at all, considering 10th + spell was turned into an Epic spell. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 11 May 2005 01:01:29 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 01:05:28
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Okay, so I’ll stick with my original idea. Epic magic is Elven High magic, and no body else gets any.
Nothing else makes any sense.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 01:34:52
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Guys, it all makes perfect sense and whether you like 3E or not, it is the way you play the game "officially" now. Sure you can home brew and keep 1E and 2E elements, but in terms of the latest products, their mandate is going to be to bring the Realms well and truly into the 3E firmament. Many times, that's not going to be easy, but it has to be done.
I think epic magic works well for both High Magic and 'normal' high-level spellcasting. The elven focus on community and spells requiring multiple casters allows them great flexibilty with respect to epic magic as well as power levels that most human epic spellcasters are going to have difficulty matching.
No Netherese archwizard is going to get together "a few buddies" and cast a big epic spell - he doesn't have "a few buddies": Netherese society in terms of power over the Art wasn't geared that way. Sure he may have a few apprentices, but that's not likely to be more than 4-5 individuals at the very most. Also, the FR sources and 'canon' make it clear that the greatest FR archwizards were unconcerned with epic magic, abandoned study of it and after the fall, the survivors were in serious catch-up mode. Simply translating your 10+ spells into epic forms isn't as easy as the poster implies.
Similarly, epic magic being the sole preserve of the elves flies in the face of a few anomalous but important FR references that to date were difficult to reconcile. Specifically, these were the references to the 'mythal cities' of Myth Ondath and Myth Lharast that were dedicated to Eldath and Selune respectively: not the most elven of deities. Also, we have Myth Iiscar on the isle of Lantan which to date hasn't revealed any elven presence during its time in the Realms (although it doesn't rule out an earlier elven presence: refugees from Syorpiir or Thearnytaar?).
As for Mystra's Ban being a detour sign, it may appear like that, but you're missing the one, crucial fundamental aspect of epic spells: the fact that it's almost impossible to learn someone else's epic spells and that it's hugely difficult to transcribe them to any medium. Therefore, epic spellcasting is more difficult, onerous, time consuming etc. than simply creating and formulating the old 10+ level spells used in Netheril. There is an XP cost, a research cost which is theoretically higher than 'normal' spell creation and all in all more hassle.
Your 'detour' (if allowed by a DM in the first place - remember, they get to say "Yay" or "Nay" re any proposed new spell, epic or otherwise) might not get you where you want to be.
I'm not saying that epic spellcasting is the panacea for the 2E to 3E transition, especially re High Magic, but it's the only coherent way to move forward. The only other route to take is to create totally separate and different systems of magic use as was done in 2E, but using 3E rules. If that's the way you prefer to go, then more power to you, but don't denigrate WotC for not taking the road that you would have preferred. They've just done it differently to the way you would have, it hasn't been done wrongly or incorrectly.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 01:50:25
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It rather interesting though how Elves casting High magic resembles the Red Wizards of Thay both of whom use other casters to increase the power of there spells.........
Which makes me wonder if the Red Wizards can cast "High Magic" just like the elves |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 02:51:47
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quote:
Guys, it all makes perfect sense and whether you like 3E or not, it is the way you play the game "officially" now. Sure you can home brew and keep 1E and 2E elements, but in terms of the latest products, their mandate is going to be to bring the Realms well and truly into the 3E firmament. Many times, that's not going to be easy, but it has to be done.
And, hopefully, eventually, we will see an official stance on this addressed in a future supplement. However, as it stands, it seems more than a little wonky. Both rules-wise and flavor-wise. And who knows when anything like that will, if ever, be produced. Thus, this conversation. :)
Personally, I find that 3ed is leaps and bounds above 2ed. However, as FR is a world that changes constantly, a living world more or less, large changes in the rule set are going to cause giant complications in the history. (Ex; dwarven wizards, 20th level elves.)
2nd edition was just a series of staples and band-aids slapped onto 1st edition. High magic was the same thing for elven spell casters, and the speculations and potential fixes discussed in this conversation is the same thing.
quote:
No Netherese archwizard is going to get together "a few buddies" and cast a big epic spell - he doesn't have "a few buddies": Netherese society in terms of power over the Art wasn't geared that way. Sure he may have a few apprentices, but that's not likely to be more than 4-5 individuals at the very most. Also, the FR sources and 'canon' make it clear that the greatest FR archwizards were unconcerned with epic magic, abandoned study of it and after the fall, the survivors were in serious catch-up mode. Simply translating your 10+ spells into epic forms isn't as easy as the poster implies.
Bad example on my part, but still, change “Netherese Archwizard” to Fred the epic level mage and it’s roughly the same thing. However, I should probably shut up now, because your next point trumps me all over the place.
quote:
Similarly, epic magic being the sole preserve of the elves flies in the face of a few anomalous but important FR references that to date were difficult to reconcile. Specifically, these were the references to the 'mythal cities' of Myth Ondath and Myth Lharast that were dedicated to Eldath and Selune respectively: not the most elven of deities. Also, we have Myth Iiscar on the isle of Lantan which to date hasn't revealed any elven presence during its time in the Realms (although it doesn't rule out an earlier elven presence: refugees from Syorpiir or Thearnytaar?).
Which totally destroys my “elves only” thing. Which is good, because it really didn’t feel “Fair”.
quote:
As for Mystra's Ban being a detour sign, it may appear like that, but you're missing the one, crucial fundamental aspect of epic spells: the fact that it's almost impossible to learn someone else's epic spells and that it's hugely difficult to transcribe them to any medium. Therefore, epic spellcasting is more difficult, onerous, time consuming etc. than simply creating and formulating the old 10+ level spells used in Netheril. There is an XP cost, a research cost which is theoretically higher than 'normal' spell creation and all in all more hassle.
Good point. The lack of transferability of epic level spells from one caster to another makes them significantly less powerful. I will point out that Fred the epic mage could still spend a number of years casting a spell that would drop Mount Waterdeep on top of Suzail and still get around the ban on 10th level magic. (Or he could try; I imagine that this is one of the reasons Mystra’s chosen are actually adventurers, rather than just really powerful farmers or scribes. ) There still is the potential for huge effects that are just as devastating or world altering as any 12th level spell. But, again, good point; I could see Mystra allowing great research into powerful effects, but not making them able to be passed around like a Magic Missile spell.
quote:
I'm not saying that epic spellcasting is the panacea for the 2E to 3E transition, especially re High Magic, but it's the only coherent way to move forward. The only other route to take is to create totally separate and different systems of magic use as was done in 2E, but using 3E rules. If that's the way you prefer to go, then more power to you, but don't denigrate WotC for not taking the road that you would have preferred. They've just done it differently to the way you would have, it hasn't been done wrongly or incorrectly.
I have to disagree with you here; it’s not the only coherent way to move forward; it’s the only way to move forward using existing material. Material designed for the core game, not necessarily the Realms. It doesn’t always mesh up. And, personally, I think they dropped the ball on this one. It happens, that’s why we have house rules and other changes that we make to existing settings.
Just to make things clear: I don’t think WoTC is evil or anything. I like the products they put out, even though I disagree with some of the material. I adapt FR stuff to fit the world better, and I adapt their core stuff to fit into FR (Notably, the “Complete” series and the “Races” series.) I think that making a solid, coherent rules set is a good thing, and building off of it is even better. I still view everything as a suggestion though.
I don’t think anyone is saying that WoTC sucks, just that we don’t agree with the path they took.
Totally off topic here, but where can I find the stuff on Myth Ondath and Myth Lharast? Until this post, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of them before.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 03:34:06
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Sorry for the double post.
Bah, I seem to be missing another chunk of knowledge here:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
After -339 DR, there was no access to level 10+ spells save in terms of epic magic or metamagicked level 1-9 spells that had been enhanced to higher levels.
So, just so I’m clear; you can still cast spells that have been altered by a metamagic feat that take them above 9th level? For example, A Wall of Iron used with the Quicken Spell feat (which would be 10th level) is okay?
If so, I think I’m being to harsh on what Mystra’s ban really means.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 06:31:21
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Yes, you can modify lower level spells above 9th level and that's just fine (provided you have the appropriate spell slots, of course). It's just the "base" level 10+ spells that are prohibited.
And I don't know if everyone is bitter about 3e, I just know I am. It's not that I've never played it, or haven't weighed it, and there are some things about it (skills, and, within reason, the ability to increase stats) that I like more than 2e. However, I absolutely hate how 3e in general has run roughshod over perfectly good and internally consistent lore for no apparent reason. Part of this seems to come from a desire to let PC's be everything and everything. I can kinda understand this, I have been a player, after all, but it has been taken to the extreme. Epic magic is not the only thing to come out of this "drive," but it's one I tend to stick on more often.
As far as I'm concerned, you can do whatever you like in your campaign, and I'll do what I like in mine. I've become quite proficient at turning PrC's back into kits, after all. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 08:21:30
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Myth Lharast is looked at in the "Lands of Intrigue" 2E boxed set and is located in Amn. There is some minor references to it in "Lost Empires of Faerun" IIRC.
Myth Ondath is noted in the "Cormanthyr" accessory and "Volo's Guide to All Things Magical". A part of the elven realm of Rystall Wood (Border Forest/Moonsea region) it became Ondathel, the City of Peace and then Myth Ondath. The transition from an elven settlement to a city of diferent races as yet hasn't been properly addressed in extant realmslore. It was destroyed by the artifact known as the Gatekeeper's Crystal - see VGtATM.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 08:22:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
So, just so I’m clear; you can still cast spells that have been altered by a metamagic feat that take them above 9th level? For example, A Wall of Iron used with the Quicken Spell feat (which would be 10th level) is okay?
If so, I think I’m being to harsh on what Mystra’s ban really means.
You got it. If you read the Mystra's Ban text in LEoF, written by Eric Boyd, this becomes clearer.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2005 : 08:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Myth Lharast is looked at in the "Lands of Intrigue" 2E boxed set and is located in Amn. There is some minor references to it in "Lost Empires of Faerun" IIRC.
Myth Ondath is noted in the "Cormanthyr" accessory and "Volo's Guide to All Things Magical". A part of the elven realm of Rystall Wood (Border Forest/Moonsea region) it became Ondathel, the City of Peace and then Myth Ondath. The transition from an elven settlement to a city of diferent races as yet hasn't been properly addressed in extant realmslore. It was destroyed by the artifact known as the Gatekeeper's Crystal - see VGtATM.
-- George Krashos
Ah thanks, I have read them, the names just slipped through the swiss cheese of my brain.
And I (stupidly) loaned out my LEoF before I really had a chance to read it. Now they’re on vacation with it. -_-
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Corelllon + Evermeet and Mystra + Netherese
