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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2005 : 00:00:55
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...i didnīt want to lead that scroll (FR's Prime Material Plane - Opinions) off topic, so i started a new one...
the following statement got me thinking:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Uh... But they can't be in the phlogiston. The Flow is planarly isolated -- you can not access any other planes while in the Flow, not even extra-dimensional spaces, nor can you teleport to or from the Flow.
i just remembered the odd fact that the imaskari somehow succeeded in barring the gods of the mulhorandi and untheric pantheon to enter the realms.
is it true that we still donīt know how they did that? my knowledge about that is spotty, so itīs entirely possible that i simply havenīt found the explanation...
anyway, i was just playing with the theory that the planarly isolated flow might have something to do with the imaskari creating "gods-barring" planar borders around toril...
any thoughts?
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Edited by - tauster on 06 May 2005 00:01:50
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 00:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
...i didnīt want to lead that scroll (FR's Prime Material Plane - Opinions) off topic, so i started a new one...
the following statement got me thinking:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Uh... But they can't be in the phlogiston. The Flow is planarly isolated -- you can not access any other planes while in the Flow, not even extra-dimensional spaces, nor can you teleport to or from the Flow.
i just remembered the odd fact that the imaskari somehow succeeded in barring the gods of the mulhorandi and untheric pantheon to enter the realms.
is it true that we still donīt know how they did that? my knowledge about that is spotty, so itīs entirely possible that i simply havenīt found the explanation...
anyway, i was just playing with the theory that the planarly isolated flow might have something to do with the imaskari creating "gods-barring" planar borders around toril...
any thoughts?
I think they simply prevented any planar openings from forming in Realmspace.
"Planarly isolated" was my choice of words, but maybe it's a bit confusing, in this circumstance. See, in the Spelljammer setting, all the other D&D settings (except Ravenloft) exist in separate solar systems, and the solar systems are each contained in their own crystal sphere. The spheres themselves float in the phlogiston. It's kind of like a "non-space" that exists outside of regular space -- like hyperspace, maybe.
Since the phlogiston cannot exist inside a crystal sphere, and has absolutely no connections to any planes, it's rather unlikely that it had anything to do with the Imaskari barrier. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 00:29:40
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| I'd say they just managed to find a way to seal off FR's Crystal Sphere.... Actually I believe that is what it says in 2e material. :) Yup, on page 94 of Powers & Pantheons. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 May 2005 00:32:03 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:04:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, in the Spelljammer setting, all the other D&D settings (except Ravenloft) exist in separate solar systems, and the solar systems are each contained in their own crystal sphere.
The fact that Ravenloft now exists in a complete plane (perhaps a Material one) could certainly allow for the possibility of SJ travel... certainly moreso now than in the days of 2e.
Of course, it just becomes a question of whether the Dark Powers would aloow frequent planar/SJ access. And they don't.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 02:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, in the Spelljammer setting, all the other D&D settings (except Ravenloft) exist in separate solar systems, and the solar systems are each contained in their own crystal sphere.
The fact that Ravenloft now exists in a complete plane (perhaps a Material one) could certainly allow for the possibility of SJ travel... certainly moreso now than in the days of 2e.
Of course, it just becomes a question of whether the Dark Powers would aloow frequent planar/SJ access. And they don't.
The Mists can reach into wildspace, though. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 04:06:06
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Only at the behest of the Dark Powers, now. The 3e material makes this more than apparent. Although Wildspace is not exclusively mentioned, the Mists have always long been suspected to be the tool of the Dark Powers, and it is they (or it?) who have the "final" word on where and when the Mists can reach.
In 2e however... well, we're pretty much familiar on that already  .
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 10:10:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think they simply prevented any planar openings from forming in Realmspace.
...sounds to me like they manipulated the crystal sphere of realmspace. because we donīt have any canon sources, and will probably never again have canon sources compatible with the 2e cosmology: what would you (i.e. the scribes of candlekeep) think how they did it? i am looking for a "plausible" way (i.e. one the players will buy without too much suspension of disbelief) the imaskari accomplished a feat that only a certain emperor vulkaran from vodonispace accomplished before (or after?).
quote:
"Planarly isolated" was my choice of words, but maybe it's a bit confusing, in this circumstance.
i know that phrase is not "canonical", and i donīt find it confusing. on the contray, i think itīs rather accurate.
quote:
See, in the Spelljammer setting, all the other D&D settings (except Ravenloft) exist in separate solar systems, and the solar systems are each contained in their own crystal sphere. The spheres themselves float in the phlogiston. It's kind of like a "non-space" that exists outside of regular space -- like hyperspace, maybe.
i know the 2e cosmology quite well, especially how spelljamming works. i was just looking for a "working" link/combination between those two game elements.
quote:
Since the phlogiston cannot exist inside a crystal sphere, and has absolutely no connections to any planes, it's rather unlikely that it had anything to do with the Imaskari barrier.
hmmm... it is possible to build constructions on the exterior of crystal spheres: i canīt remember where i read it (it might as well have been fan fiction), but there are at least two examples of artifacts on exterior spherewalls:
a) one sphere had huge pyramids on the outside; iirc they were the only known portals through itīs walls, but i could be wrong.
b) huge, no - colossal - statues walking on the spheres outer side.
iīve searched my sj archives up and down but canīt find the corresponding files.  since i donīt really care wether something is canon or not (as long as itīs well written and fits my plans, i will gladly take it over in my game), lets assume it was noncanon.
what about(1) the following scenario?
the imaskari erected artifacts on the sperewalls exterior - around the whole sphere, to be exact - that prevented portals through the walls and any kind of planar portals from working. after the fall of the imaskari, the gods from the mulhorandi and untheric pantheon as well as members of pantheons unrelated to that "incident" commissioned some of their followers to strip realmspaceīs exterior of the blasphemous artifacts, without telling them what these things (huge buildings, towers, whatever...) are or do - because never should mortals again be able to constrict the gods in any way. several small fleets of spelljammering ships were sent out and its devout crews disassembled the strange buildings, wondering what it was but without knowing for sure. wild speculations abounded, and can still be found in old texts dating from that time. (2)
after decades (or centuries?) the campaign was over, and all sites were razed. ...at least, the faithful thought they had destroyed all. several gods thought it wise to keep some the imaskariīs artifacts. they either masked them from the disassembler crews or hid them somewhere else. perhaps one day they could be useful against a divine rival, one could never know (even if one happens to be a god)... 
now it has nothing to do with the flow anymore, at least not directly. the "barrier-devices" are still in the flow because the sphereīs exterior is surrounded by phlogiston, which might have been intended by the imaskari. i think it makes more sense than placing them on the crystal sphereīs interior, because of itīs "planarly isolating" property.
thoughts?
(1)i.e.: please shoot holes in my scenario, for my players are experts in that particular discipline - even without extensive knowledge about canon
(2) what kind of speculations? it would be nice to let the players find texts about "the great demolition" or something like that, strongly distorted through repeated re-interpretation and translation over time. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 11:23:02
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The idea of blocking off the sphere by using structures doesn't work for me. You'd have to destroy a planet or two to have enough raw material to do that.
And it's been a while since I went thru my SJ stuff, but I'm not recalling any references to things being built directly on the sphere itself.
How about, instead, a spell cast as a collaborative effort by a whole lot of casters that redirected any attempted planar openings? |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 11:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The idea of blocking off the sphere by using structures doesn't work for me. You'd have to destroy a planet or two to have enough raw material to do that.
the strucures housed some kind of arcane devices, their only purpose was to protect these artifacts. should have stated that one more clearly.
quote:
And it's been a while since I went thru my SJ stuff, but I'm not recalling any references to things being built directly on the sphere itself.
as i said, it might as well have been fan fiction (probably either from the realms list or spelljammer.org). when coming up with new ideas, i donīt really care about what is canon and what not. that was partly the reason to open a new scroll, for kuje wanted to discuss on a strict canon-level.
quote:
How about, instead, a spell cast as a collaborative effort by a whole lot of casters that redirected any attempted planar openings?
sounds plausible to me. but i think that a spell of such epic proportions should require some visible material component, say... a sphere-covering network of arcane foki (enchanted gems, set in complicated arcane contraptions), and buildings housing each of them, on the sphereīs exterior?  |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 00:00:49
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Proctiv, an archwizard of Netheril, created an 11th level spell Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere (p.11 Netheril:Encyclopedia Arcana). This spell only prevented spelljamming traffic through a crystal sphere, not planar travel or teleportation.
Perhaps the Imaskari developed a variant spell; preventing the prayers of worshipers from exiting the sphere and reaching their deities. Of course that kind of spell would arguably be more powerful than Proctiv's 11th level spell. And it would block all worshipers, not just the prayers of the Mulan... but all worshipers everywhere on Toril and Realmspace. So that doesn't really work. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 01:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Realmslore
Proctiv, an archwizard of Netheril, created an 11th level spell Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere (p.11 Netheril:Encyclopedia Arcana). This spell only prevented spelljamming traffic through a crystal sphere, not planar travel or teleportation.
Perhaps the Imaskari developed a variant spell; preventing the prayers of worshipers from exiting the sphere and reaching their deities. Of course that kind of spell would arguably be more powerful than Proctiv's 11th level spell. And it would block all worshipers, not just the prayers of the Mulan... but all worshipers everywhere on Toril and Realmspace. So that doesn't really work.
Perhaps the way it worked was by blocking prayers to deities who weren't already present in the Realms, and/or who weren't tied to the Realms? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 02:13:44
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I don't particularly like the idea of preventing prayers from reaching a deity... however, perhaps the Imaskari's modified spell simply redirected the energy that would have been collected from the prayers by the power. This faith energy was then used instead to create and reinforce a planar seal that closed the sphere off from the rest of the multiverse.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 02:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't particularly like the idea of preventing prayers from reaching a deity... however, perhaps the Imaskari's modified spell simply redirected the energy that would have been collected from the prayers by the power. This faith energy was then used instead to create and reinforce a planar seal that closed the sphere off from the rest of the multiverse.
Well the info from Powers & Pantheons makes it sound like the sealing was that strong since only AO heard the prayers of the new displaced people and then he summoned Ptah. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 05:34:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't particularly like the idea of preventing prayers from reaching a deity... however, perhaps the Imaskari's modified spell simply redirected the energy that would have been collected from the prayers by the power. This faith energy was then used instead to create and reinforce a planar seal that closed the sphere off from the rest of the multiverse.
Well... Look at the rules for spelljamming priests. If you reached a sphere where your deity was not venerated, you either a)didn't get any spells higher than 2nd level, b)found a deity that was willing to substitute and/or an equivalent deity, or c)you cast a spell that basically told your god where you were.
So we already know that gods are powerless in spheres where they're not worshipped. It's not too much a stretch to go from there and make them unable to hear what's going on in a sphere. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 06:05:35
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| if the gods are powerless in certain spheres where they are not worshipped, can they still enter and leave the sphere at will without being trapped? Then concerning Ao, am I right to say that he also has power in the spheres where the other gods have no power as Ao never had much dealings with various denizens of the Realms. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 06:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't particularly like the idea of preventing prayers from reaching a deity... however, perhaps the Imaskari's modified spell simply redirected the energy that would have been collected from the prayers by the power. This faith energy was then used instead to create and reinforce a planar seal that closed the sphere off from the rest of the multiverse.
Well... Look at the rules for spelljamming priests. If you reached a sphere where your deity was not venerated, you either a)didn't get any spells higher than 2nd level, b)found a deity that was willing to substitute and/or an equivalent deity, or c)you cast a spell that basically told your god where you were.
So we already know that gods are powerless in spheres where they're not worshipped. It's not too much a stretch to go from there and make them unable to hear what's going on in a sphere.
Yes, I realise that. In fact, it was one of the few elements of SJ that I did not use for the significant amount of time that I ran successful SJ campaigns... simply because I had devised a system of my own that was crucial to the series of adventures I ran at the time.
I was merely stating that I did not like the idea of such inaccess to prayers from mortals. I see divine prayer as something that cannot be wholly affected or restricted regardless, however, I do reflect reduced divine spell access to clerics in spheres where their gods are not specifically represented. Prayer in any of my campaigns is more than just "faith energy"... it is also an ideal as well as a component of reality itself.
In such a case, only another power could truly affect the prayers reaching another power.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 18:59:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
if the gods are powerless in certain spheres where they are not worshipped, can they still enter and leave the sphere at will without being trapped? Then concerning Ao, am I right to say that he also has power in the spheres where the other gods have no power as Ao never had much dealings with various denizens of the Realms.
I'd say that unless a deity had worshippers in a sphere, if they for some reason entered a sphere, they would not have any power until they were back to their home sphere -- or at most, would be something like an avatar, at best.
The Ao question is a tricky one... I'd say that in other spheres he would still be quite powerful, but he'd not have his overgod status or be able to do too much. |
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a quick planar question...
