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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2005 : 04:50:44
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In my constant quest to mine the nuggets of realmslore that lie in the many FR sources from 1E to 3E, I was re-reading Demihuman Deities last night and came across a reference to humans living in the Yuirwood before the elves came there. It was these humans who first worshipped Relkath, Zandilar, the Simbul, etc.
As of UE, we know that the Yuirwood was colonised by elves in c. -9800 DR, so these humans were there before this date.
I'm just wondering if any of the scribes here had any thoughts on what racial stock they may be, where they came from (or of they were 'native' to the area) and probably more importantly, what happened to them or where they went.
Musings and thoughts most welcome.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 05:09:10
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| Have you checked for info in Spellbound? I recall the area receiving a brief blurb in there, at the least. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 06:37:56
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The reference in Spellbound only mentions that relics from the forest's previous inhabitants can be found deep in the woods. Nothing specific about them is detailed.
Looking through some 3e sources though, I can't even find references to any primitive human groups who may have existed in the area at the time either just before -9800 DR or just after it.
The closest human reference I could find with the limited resources I have available at this very moment seems to indicate the settling of Imaskari tribes around 8350 DR in the area that will become the Raurin Desert.
But I don't think the primitive humans of the Yuirwood were some type of proto-Imaskari. What about a primitive society of pre-Untherite humans...?
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 May 2005 06:43:33 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 08:14:10
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An offshoot of the Turami, perhaps?
Although I like the idea of a bunch of humans led by their chieftain Imaskar stumbling upon ancient sarrukh lore in the Thaymount and then establishing the nation of Imaskar ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 08:50:21
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The Turami case is interesting.
Note this reference from Old Empires -
quote:
As mentioned earlier, a race of tall, slim, sallow-skinned humans known as the Mulan fled the destruction of their parent civilization in Raurin and settled around the Alamber Sea and the Wizard's Reach. The Mulan cleared their land of demihumans, humanoids, and the native humans, the dark-skinned Turami. Many of the latter were taken in by Mulhorand, where they were responsible for most of the great achievements of that culture.
I'm not sure on the year this event occured though. I can't check for timeline references at the moment.
If however the timeframe does allow it, then some of the fleeing Turami might have made their way to the Yuirwood.
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 May 2005 08:54:48 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 08:58:48
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Actually, I don't think that does work. I recall now that the kingdom of Raurin was destroyed around the late -2400's. That still leaves around seven and a half thousand years of history between the two periods.
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 May 2005 08:59:34 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 09:33:15
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It looks like I'll have to create a whole new human racial group - which actually makes sense. Eric's work in RoF notes the Nar and the Raumvirans but all their 'history' begins in -1900 DR or so according to UE. They exist in the area before this (with the Rashemi as interlopers in -5000 DR) it appears. Hmm, what could I name them? Suggestions anyone?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 09:40:27
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I was thinking about the possibility of outlining a new racial group just for this primitive group of Yuirwood humans. Although, I don't usually like stretching source material that far unless it is absolutely necessary.
You're right though. Since we've learned relatively little about these humans since the details in Demihuman Deities, it is a fair assumption to suggest that they have had no further impact - besides leaving the ancient relics in the wood - upon the developing realms of the region.
Since they will now no longer be specifically derived from any pre-existing racial group in the area, you're free to name them however you wish. I don't have any particular suggestions as such, but I would recommend that you try to keep the relative "flavor" of racial groups names for the UE for this new group.
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 May 2005 09:44:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 11:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't have any particular suggestions as such, but I would recommend that you try to keep the relative "flavor" of racial groups names for the UE for this new group.
I guess "Hamsterians" is out, then?  |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 14:28:12
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A tribe of Imasaki could be interesting
We know that the humans who lived in the yuirwood where religious which if they where Imaski would have put them out of step with the rulers of the Imaski empire. Perhaps the Yuirwood gods where the origional Imaski Pantheon gods but where dropped when the Imaski became "civilizaed" and founded their empire. Now lets say that some Imaski didnt like the Imaski empires persecution of the Divine and they returned to the Yuirwood. Maybe these same Imaski taught or helped create the portal sites that allowed the Star elves to migrate to their demi plane.
Ok so where are these Imaski now?
Maybe they managed to find their way to Deep Imaski or the tribes died out |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 14:37:49
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quote:
I guess "Hamsterians" is out, then?
Well, that all depends.
Does the "Woolyians", or perhaps maybe, the "Rupertians" sound any better?
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 May 2005 14:40:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 14:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
A tribe of Imasaki could be interesting
Yes, but how did the Imaskari come to be in the Yuirwood in the first place?
The first recorded presence of any Imaskari tribes on Faerun was around -8350 DR. By that time, the green elves had already settled in the Yuirwood following the Crown Wars.
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 May 2005 14:44:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 17:51:34
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| I'm away from my books, but this just occurred to me... Isn't the Yuirwood another of those places where there's a bunch of portals scattered around? Perhaps the early humans there could have been a small group that came thru a portal and decided to settle in this strange new world... |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 17:53:38
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Sarrukh kept human slaves. Perhaps they were originally abandonned or escaped Sarrukh slaves. They could have been transplanted there and abandonned or could have escaped and fled to the Yuirwood to hide.
Whether they were transplanted or refugees they could have come from any racial stock anywhere the Sarrukh had a presence. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 18:03:15
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| Another issue that's raised by this is what happened with these "hamsterians" once the elves arrived. Perhaps the history of half-elven tribes in the Yuirwood is far longer than current realmslore have revealed? |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 21:29:28
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| Where can I find information about deep Imaskar and the Imaskari in general? I know next to nothing about them. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 21:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Where can I find information about deep Imaskar and the Imaskari in general? I know next to nothing about them.
Deep Imaskari are in Underdark and there's one in Lady of Poison by Bruce R. Cordell.
As for the Imaskari, Lost Empires should have some I think? And the Desert of Desolation 1e material. :) |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 21:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm just wondering if any of the scribes here had any thoughts on what racial stock they may be, where they came from (or of they were 'native' to the area) and probably more importantly, what happened to them or where they went.
As of yet no concrete musing on the racial stock, but as to what happened to them, I would think that their racial stock probably makes up most of the non-elven part in the half-elves of the Yuirwood.
The 'indigenous' humans intermingled with the newly arrived elves, as these tribal hunter/gatherers lived along similar ethical and moral codes the elves did. Over time, through intermarriages both original races mixed to such an extent that hardly anymore trace of the 'pure' blood remains and the half-elf descendants are the resulting predominant race. |
Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 05 May 2005 21:38:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:29:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm away from my books, but this just occurred to me... Isn't the Yuirwood another of those places where there's a bunch of portals scattered around? Perhaps the early humans there could have been a small group that came thru a portal and decided to settle in this strange new world...
That idea is probably the easiest suggestion for the origin of the human racial group. But, the fact that the star elves themselves are recent visitors might make the Yuirwood look more like some kind of "planar hotel" for travellers from other worlds...
Escaped human slaves of the Sarrukh is an interesting possbility. The Sarrukh established Okoth in southern Mulhorand around -35000 DR. If these primitive humans managed to flee Okoth several thousand years later and then gradually evolved a community of their own among the Yuirwood, that still leaves a relatively large number of years to explain what happened between then, and when they abandoned the wood.
Perhaps a significant number of the Yuirwood humans left through a portal to another world. Although I'm a little hesitant to support that idea for the reasons I stated above about frequent planar travel in the Yuirwood.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:35:07
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What I'm thinking guys is that humans pre-date the elves by a considerable margin in the Bloodstone, Impiltur, Thesk, Narfell and Great Dale lands. Likely they were primitive tribal groupings (think stone age) that were enslaved in turn by the sarrukh and then by the ... wait for it ... giants. I'm planning to have a few giant kingdoms in the region as well as a gnoll one and a few others (hobgoblins et. al.).
The humans in the Yuirwood may have been escapees from either the sarrukh or the giants (I have to check my dates here) and as to what happened to them - well, they likely died off (disease, predators, natural disaster).
I'm a bit loathe to use the portal 'escape route' as we used it to get Illuskans to Rashemen and Dambrath in recent times and it's getting as bad as bringing back flying Netherese cities or 'missing' elven sub-races.
These early humans eventually formed the Raumviran and Nar racial stocks that fought in the Mulhorand-Unther wars and the Orcgate Wars. As for a name, I'm leaning toward the Ashan or the Shanath (both derived from Ashanath).
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
What I'm thinking guys is that humans pre-date the elves by a considerable margin in the Bloodstone, Impiltur, Thesk, Narfell and Great Dale lands. Likely they were primitive tribal groupings (think stone age) that were enslaved in turn by the sarrukh and then by the ... wait for it ... giants. I'm planning to have a few giant kingdoms in the region as well as a gnoll one and a few others (hobgoblins et. al.).
Hmmm... A expansion from the north does seem interesting. And the inclusion of giant masters adds a new element to the mix. Where might you place the few giant kingdoms?
quote:
The humans in the Yuirwood may have been escapees from either the sarrukh or the giants (I have to check my dates here) and as to what happened to them - well, they likely died off (disease, predators, natural disaster).
The reign of the giants came to an end around -25000 DR. Positioning the giants as the original masters of the primitive human slaves cuts at least 10,000 years of the historical time. If they were escaped slaves from the Colossal Kingdom, they likely fled south during -24000 DR.
quote:
I'm a bit loathe to use the portal 'escape route' as we used it to get Illuskans to Rashemen and Dambrath in recent times and it's getting as bad as bringing back flying Netherese cities or 'missing' elven sub-races.
That's what I was getting at. It 'cheapens' both planar travel in general, and the Yuirwood in particular.
quote:
These early humans eventually formed the Raumviran and Nar racial stocks that fought in the Mulhorand-Unther wars and the Orcgate Wars. As for a name, I'm leaning toward the Ashan or the Shanath (both derived from Ashanath).
I prefer the Ashan, but that's just me  .
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 06:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm... A expansion from the north does seem interesting. And the inclusion of giant masters adds a new element to the mix. Where might you place the few giant kingdoms?
Well, I was thinking mostly in terms of hill giants, frost giants and cloud giants. The former would control the peaks in and around Thesk (Dragonjaw etc.), the frosty ones would control the mountains bordering Thay, Rashemen and up north into the region around Sossal while the cloud giants would control the Earthspurs and mountains around the Bloodstone lands.
Of course, there is a pretty big gap between -24000 DR and the coming of the elves in -9800 DR, so I'm tempted to say that the giant kingdoms in the region persisted for longer than -24000 DR as a regional phenomenon but died out by say -15000 DR as cohesive realms etc. What caused the end of the Time of Giants? Well, it could have been a huge rebellion by their 'cattle' (humans) or conflict with some powerful dragons (a big red in the mountains and a green in the Lethyr forest) or a few things that just haven't popped into my head yet ... I'll keep brainstorming and thank you all for the input.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 06 May 2005 06:50:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 08:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Did you at least decide on the racial group's name?
I'll go with Ashan to keep you happy, Sage.
If it ever gets 'canonised' you can always say you decided on the name.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 08:56:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
These early humans eventually formed the Raumviran and Nar racial stocks that fought in the Mulhorand-Unther wars and the Orcgate Wars. As for a name, I'm leaning toward the Ashan or the Shanath (both derived from Ashanath).
-- George Krashos
Orcgate wars? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 11:42:59
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Minor skirmish in what is now known as Thay that went on between -1075 DR and -1069 DR after some renegade Mulhorandi wizards opened a gate to a world of orcs, in which the Mulhorandi god Ra died along with the Untheric deities Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu was killed.
It also (indirectly) led to several barbaric people of the region around Ashanath founding their own kingdoms after having been influenced by the Mulan people they though side to side with as mercenaries against the orc horde. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 13:21:59
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Caffeine has yet to settle on my brain, so take this for the sleep-deprived babble it may be...
Old idea to play with--What if some Netherese saw the Fall coming and fled with a floating city or two back in time rather than into a different dimension? Some snafu causes the cities to quickly or slowly crash after re-entry in the distant past, and their crashed remnants make up a large chunk of the Thaymount.
Since they've sort of rendered the area inhospitable for a while, some flee south and west and form Imaskar. Others go north and are the humans that were in the Yuirwood.
Wacky, sure, but it's something I might try if I were running a Realms game these days. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 14:18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Did you at least decide on the racial group's name?
I'll go with Ashan to keep you happy, Sage.
If it ever gets 'canonised' you can always say you decided on the name.
-- George Krashos
You're too kind Krash .
quote:
Some snafu causes the cities to quickly or slowly crash after re-entry in the distant past, and their crashed remnants make up a large chunk of the Thaymount.
That's an interesting hook. And it just begs to be further explored in a campaign.
Thanks Steven .
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 17:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Caffeine has yet to settle on my brain, so take this for the sleep-deprived babble it may be...
Old idea to play with--What if some Netherese saw the Fall coming and fled with a floating city or two back in time rather than into a different dimension? Some snafu causes the cities to quickly or slowly crash after re-entry in the distant past, and their crashed remnants make up a large chunk of the Thaymount.
Since they've sort of rendered the area inhospitable for a while, some flee south and west and form Imaskar. Others go north and are the humans that were in the Yuirwood.
Wacky, sure, but it's something I might try if I were running a Realms game these days.
That's an interesting idea... I'm going to have to ponder that one...  |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 17:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Minor skirmish in what is now known as Thay that went on between -1075 DR and -1069 DR after some renegade Mulhorandi wizards opened a gate to a world of orcs, in which the Mulhorandi god Ra died along with the Untheric deities Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu was killed.
It also (indirectly) led to several barbaric people of the region around Ashanath founding their own kingdoms after having been influenced by the Mulan people they though side to side with as mercenaries against the orc horde.
Man, those untheric gods dropped like flies. How come? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 05:51:45
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Minor skirmish in what is now known as Thay that went on between -1075 DR and -1069 DR after some renegade Mulhorandi wizards opened a gate to a world of orcs, in which the Mulhorandi god Ra died along with the Untheric deities Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu was killed.
It also (indirectly) led to several barbaric people of the region around Ashanath founding their own kingdoms after having been influenced by the Mulan people they though side to side with as mercenaries against the orc horde.
Man, those untheric gods dropped like flies. How come?
They didn't eat enough vegetables. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Humans in the Yuirwood
