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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 04 May 2005 : 15:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But if the worlds are thousands of light years apart, then spelljamming between worlds would take so long that no one would do it (as in, generations to reach another world). At interplanetary speed, a spelljammer doesn't even come close to light speed.
Further, if the settings are each on their own, infinite Prime, then it's simply impossible to spelljam between them.
I really hate to say it, but I don't see how spelljamming can exist in the new cosmology. By their own statements, other than the worlds within the setting's own system, there's nothing else out there.
I think this reflects just how poorly thought out the new cosmology idea was.
Again I agree but this is how WOTC changed them. :( |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 15:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
The problem with Ed's quote about the crystal sphere surrounding the prime material plane of the realms does not work with 3/3.5 rules because the prime materials are supposed to be infinite. If there is a sphere around them then they can be measured and are no longer infinite.
I personally know nothing of spelljaming, I'm just using logic from what is posted here. The true answer is probably the sphere's no longer exist in 3rd edition because of the cosmology overhaul.
Excatly. How can something that is covered in a sphere be infinite. :) Ah well.
IF and that's a BIG IF, I was using the new planes I'd just throw some really big portals that enter the other seperate and different Prime Materials. :)
Also WOTC screwed FR's sphere/prime even more because they removed the Plane of Radiance, so the portals to that plane no longer exist and then FR's stars no longer exist. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 15:57:03
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| As an aside, and Alaundo will probably whip me for this, Hackmaster has a spelljammer book being put out soon. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 17:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
As an aside, and Alaundo will probably whip me for this, Hackmaster has a spelljammer book being put out soon. :)
Really? Tell me more...
I don't think that having spheres limits the Prime, if you decide that the spheres are just separate sections of one infinite Prime. Just because I put a fence around my yard doesn't mean that my yard is no longer part of the same ground as your yard. Of course, this goes against the idea that every setting is its own Prime...
As for ship-sized, interplanar gates... I don't like that idea. Why? Because it gets away from spelljamming and goes back to what spelljamming was created, in part, to get around: planar travel. Why bother to spelljam at all, if you could just create one of these gates on the world you're originating from?
This is why they shouldn't make arbitrary changes without seriously thinking them thru!  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 May 2005 17:45:52 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 17:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think that having spheres limits the Prime, if you decide that the spheres are just separate sections of one infinite Prime. Just because I put a fence around my yard doesn't mean that my yard is no longer part of the same ground as your yard. Of course, this goes against the idea that every setting is its own Prime...
As for ship-sized, interplanar gates... I don't like that idea. Why? Because it gets away from spelljamming and goes back to what spelljamming was created, in part, to get around: planar travel. Why bother to spelljam at all, if you could just create one of these gates on the world you're originating from?
This is why they shouldn't make arbitrary changes without seriously thinking them thru!
I agree again on the thinking it through. This is probably why the cosmologies threads are always so heated. :)
But I meant that if I added gates they would be like Sigils, in that they would be controlled by the deities or an overpower. Like Sigil's are controlled by the Lady of Pain.
Shrug :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 19:17:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
The problem with Ed's quote about the crystal sphere surrounding the prime material plane of the realms does not work with 3/3.5 rules because the prime materials are supposed to be infinite.
Why? Where do you get that from? I don't see any reason a prime material plane can't be bounded.
In fact our own real-world universe is bounded by itself. It's not infinite. It is the surface of a four (or more) dimensional hypersphere last time I heard. If you travel far enough you can loop back to where you started from. Much like traveling around a globe.
We are talking fantasy physics anyway, I don't know of any 3.5 source that says prime material planes have to be infinte. I could be wrong, though, if I have overlooked a citation somewhere please let me know. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 19:24:48
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By the way, Rich Baker just chimed in with his opinion regarding crystal spheres in 3.5e. At this link here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6089850&postcount=1050
quote:
Well, we haven't had cause to decide one way or the other. If you want my opinion, I think the crystal shell's still there. No reason that Faerun's stars need to be other suns zillions of miles away; it's a fantastic universe.
and here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6096338&postcount=1054
quote:
I meant that at some interplanetary distance, Realmspace ends at the inside of the big crystal sphere. Stars are actually big glowing things on the inside surface of that sphere. Maybe there's a night-black ocean on the inside of that sphere, and you can sail around amid the stars and find all sorts of strange islands and wondrous things there.
I think the cosmology is perfectly workable if you assume that's it for the Material Plane in which Toril sits. The universe is a finite size of 50 AUs, or something like that. Or, possibly, other crystal spheres bob around elsewhere deep in the phlogiston. Fritz Leiber's Nehwon has a somewhat similar cosmology.
None of that is official, BTW. We know that there's Realmspace, other worlds in Realmspace, and folks that have flying ships for moving around between them. But we haven't stated in 3E whether the whole thing's encapsulated in a crystal sphere or not, and if so, whether it's a finite or infinite Material Plane.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 20:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I use most parts of 3rd edition in my games, but I threw the great tree out the window, because the wheel cosmology is much better(is it true that sigil doesn`t exist in 3rd edition?)
No Sigil does exist and it's the same Sigil of the Wheel/Ring. Rich assumes that it is its own plane in the Tree while also floating above the Outlands of Greyhawk's planes.
Thank goodness, at least they managed not to screw up Sigil
Though pretty much everything else in the new cosmology is "(censured)". |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 20:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray RichardsonWhy? Where do you get that from? I don't see any reason a prime material plane can't be bounded.
In fact our own real-world universe is bounded by itself. It's not infinite. It is the surface of a four (or more) dimensional hypersphere last time I heard. If you travel far enough you can loop back to where you started from. Much like traveling around a globe.
We are talking fantasy physics anyway, I don't know of any 3.5 source that says prime material planes have to be infinte. I could be wrong, though, if I have overlooked a citation somewhere please let me know.[:)
Why? Because the Material Plane's are infinite. Read the Manual of the Planes, the DMG, Lord of Madness, etc.
And now reading Rich's reply he goes against what WOTC has said about the Material Planes.... so I guess maybe that FR's Material Plane might not be infinite but that goes against the info in the books I listed. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 May 2005 20:46:33 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 20:39:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
[quoteThat's helpful. How about you answer the question then. :) Sorry to sound annoyed but that reply doesn't help. If you don't like it, then cool but that's not what I asked. :)
Ok, humbly chastened... and interest piqued (though I still wouldn't use the concept  )
I find myself on your side of the thought-line Kuje, on the usefulness of the crystal spheres in the cosmology.
While 'gates' might not be the solution, something akin to the crossroads and backroads from Magic of Faerun could suffice to allow travel across vast distances - folds in the fabric of phlogiston as it were. This does not concern traveling through/across other planes as the traveler doesn't really leave for one...
It might strech the imagination, but applying general relativity / quantum mechanics could exist just the same in Realmspace, Krynnspace etc (actually Ed's comment about Earth and Toril could almost imply it does...)
What one could imagine as a 'theoretical' crystal sphere would be the time/space encompasing 'globe' that contains those places/worlds etc that could be traveled with the 'normal' magical modes of transportation from a sort of central point (a galaxy [or equivalent]center?) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 20:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Ok, humbly chastened... and interest piqued (though I still wouldn't use the concept )
I find myself on your side of the thought-line Kuje, on the usefulness of the crystal spheres in the cosmology.
While 'gates' might not be the solution, something akin to the crossroads and backroads from Magic of Faerun could suffice to allow travel across vast distances - folds in the fabric of phlogiston as it were. This does not concern traveling through/across other planes as the traveler doesn't really leave for one...
It might strech the imagination, but applying general relativity / quantum mechanics could exist just the same in Realmspace, Krynnspace etc (actually Ed's comment about Earth and Toril could almost imply it does...)
What one could imagine as a 'theoretical' crystal sphere would be the time/space encompasing 'globe' that contains those places/worlds etc that could be traveled with the 'normal' magical modes of transportation from a sort of central point (a galaxy [or equivalent]center?)
Sorry to snap at you yesterday. I was in a bad mood and I took it partly out on you.
And I like the idea of folds in the cosmology. :)
As for the rest of your reply, well break that down into laymen's terms? :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 21:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
[quote]
Sorry to snap at you yesterday. I was in a bad mood and I took it partly out on you.
And I like the idea of folds in the cosmology. :)
As for the rest of your reply, well break that down into laymen's terms? :)
No offense taken - after all Candlekeep is (and hopefully remains) a place where opinions can be given freely without being burned down in a flamewar.
As for the terminology - I'm a layman myself when it comes to these matters, but my wife assures me that 'The Elegant Universe' and 'Schroedinger's Cat' are the correct books to read to understand these intricate topics of general relativity and quantum mechanis a bit more. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 21:01:53
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In the official Realms, I would say there are crystal spheres. Old lore is valid until contradicted. But until Wizards designers have some reason to mention them, a correct answer would be that the presence of crystal spheres is indeterminate.
In my Realms, there aren't, because they serve no distinct purpose. I prefer to handle worldwalking with the planes and not confuse that already complicated situation with spelljamming -- which inelegantly duplicates elements already in the setting, travel between worlds and skyships, and mixes them with genre-inappropriate material. I would tend not to use Zakhara for similar reasons. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 22:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
While 'gates' might not be the solution, something akin to the crossroads and backroads from Magic of Faerun could suffice to allow travel across vast distances - folds in the fabric of phlogiston as it were. This does not concern traveling through/across other planes as the traveler doesn't really leave for one...
Uh... But they can't be in the phlogiston. The Flow is planarly isolated -- you can not access any other planes while in the Flow, not even extra-dimensional spaces, nor can you teleport to or from the Flow.
Also, if the Realms are in an infinite plane and the crystal sphere doesn't exist, then the phlogiston can't exist, either -- it only exists outside of spheres and there is no possible method to take phlogiston into a sphere.
If you leave them in space, then it's pretty much the same as the gates idea. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 00:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Gray RichardsonWhy? Where do you get that from? I don't see any reason a prime material plane can't be bounded.
In fact our own real-world universe is bounded by itself. It's not infinite. It is the surface of a four (or more) dimensional hypersphere last time I heard. If you travel far enough you can loop back to where you started from. Much like traveling around a globe.
We are talking fantasy physics anyway, I don't know of any 3.5 source that says prime material planes have to be infinte. I could be wrong, though, if I have overlooked a citation somewhere please let me know.[:)
Why? Because the Material Plane's are infinite. Read the Manual of the Planes, the DMG, Lord of Madness, etc.
And now reading Rich's reply he goes against what WOTC has said about the Material Planes.... so I guess maybe that FR's Material Plane might not be infinite but that goes against the info in the books I listed.
Sorry, Kuje, I am looking but not finding it. Could you please help me out with some page numbers I could look up where it says that Toril's prime material plane is infinite? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 00:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray RichardsonSorry, Kuje, I am looking but not finding it. Could you please help me out with some page numbers I could look up where it says that Toril's prime material plane is infinite?
Sorry Grey, that you can't find the Material Plane info in any of the books I listed. If you can't then I'm not going to help you look for it. You didn't read what I said so I'll repeat myself, again. Per WOTC's material, that I listed, it makes it clear that Material Planes are infinite and thus Rich is wrong.
But right, lets all believe right now that WOTC isn't using thier own material and of course, as usual, they are just going to change it willy nilly. Why am I not surprised. Jaded and bitter, I? Nay. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 May 2005 00:28:43 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 00:29:49
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| Well, its not so much that I can't find it--I am giving you the benefit of the doubt--but I am coming to the conclusion that you are either misremembering or that the material is just plane not there. If you could provide some more specific quotes with page numbers it would go a long way to helping you make your case. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 00:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Well, its not so much that I can't find it--I am giving you the benefit of the doubt--but I am coming to the conclusion that you are either misremembering or that the material is just plane not there. If you could provide some more specific quotes with page numbers it would go a long way to helping you make your case.
Again if you can't find it by looking in the Manual of the Planes, the 3.5 DMG, Lords of Madness, etc, then I'm not going to help you look for it. It's clearly listed in the Manual of the Planes for the Material Plane section. I also posted the Lords of Madness text earlier in this thread. True Lords of Madness is Greyhawk specific but there's no reason to ignore it because it says the same thing as the Manual of the Planes. Hells even the System Reference Document says that most planes are infinite.
WOTC has made it clear that the Material Planes are infinite. But of course they are probably going to ignore that for FR. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 May 2005 01:29:55 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 02:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
While 'gates' might not be the solution, something akin to the crossroads and backroads from Magic of Faerun could suffice to allow travel across vast distances - folds in the fabric of phlogiston as it were. This does not concern traveling through/across other planes as the traveler doesn't really leave for one...
Uh... But they can't be in the phlogiston. The Flow is planarly isolated -- you can not access any other planes while in the Flow, not even extra-dimensional spaces, nor can you teleport to or from the Flow.
That is correct. Although there are those slimly intepreted details that suggest that where the Flow is at its thinest, a portal can be formed to the Ethereal.
quote:
Also, if the Realms are in an infinite plane and the crystal sphere doesn't exist, then the phlogiston can't exist, either -- it only exists outside of spheres and there is no possible method to take phlogiston into a sphere.
I think the problem here, is the use of the word "infinite". Just what is infinite about a Material Plane? Like some outer planes, take the Abyss for example, while there may be a infinite "number" of layers, each layer may be "limited" in size or existence.
I think that, for some Material Planes, infinite may refer more to the temporal aspect of a separate cosmology, rather than the world and surrounding Material Plane being infinite in size.
Now if this is the case, then the possibility for crystal spheres and the Phlogiston becomes apart.
The reason I brought up the issue of "infinite" is because if all Material Planes are indeed infinite in spatial dimensions, and the Far Realm is said to exist outside a cosmology, then the cosmology itself CANNOT be infinite, because their will always be something beyond it.
This is of course, if you subscribe to the whole Far Realm theory about it residing beyond the standard planar framework.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 02:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
... or that the material is just plane not there.
Is that pun intended, Gray?
Let's play nice fellows.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 04:48:07
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Okay, after reading the Manual of the Planes I find this quote on p.42 "While usually infinite or at least incredibly large and self contained, a Material Plane can be finite, such as a disk that rests on an Elemental Plane."
And later on the same page: "Oerth, the Material Plane of the D&D cosmology, consists of self-contained spherical bodies hanging in space."
Now that latter bit is interesting if only because it seems to suggest that Oerth's Material Plane still contains crystal spheres. Although I suppose it is sufficiently vague that it could be talking about planets.
Anyway, because 1) the Manual of the Planes says that a Material Plane can be finite, and 2) there is no 3E text that says that the shape of Toril's Material Plane has been retconned from 2E, and 3) because Ed and Rich seem to lean in favor of a crystal sphere for Toril, I have to conclude that it is at least possible that Realmspace is still bounded by a crystal sphere.
I think Faraer nailed it exactly. The old lore has not been overwritten and old lore takes precedence until superceded by later text. Until the designers address the issue the presence of crystal spheres is indeterminate.
And of course George, my pun was intended although it was not material to my argument. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 05:02:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Okay, after reading the Manual of the Planes I find this quote on p.42 "While usually infinite or at least incredibly large and self contained, a Material Plane can be finite, such as a disk that rests on an Elemental Plane."
And later on the same page: "Oerth, the Material Plane of the D&D cosmology, consists of self-contained spherical bodies hanging in space."
Now that latter bit is interesting if only because it seems to suggest that Oerth's Material Plane still contains crystal spheres. Although I suppose it is sufficiently vague that it could be talking about planets.
Anyway, because 1) the Manual of the Planes says that a Material Plane can be finite, and 2) there is no 3E text that says that the shape of Toril's Material Plane has been retconned from 2E, and 3) because Ed and Rich seem to lean in favor of a crystal sphere for Toril, I have to conclude that it is at least possible that Realmspace is still bounded by a crystal sphere.
Then you need to flip the page to page 41 and read where it says infinite. The System Reference Document for 3.5 also says most of the planes are infinite. The 3.5e DMG says all the planes of the D&D cosmology are infinite, or they are so large they may as well be. Lords of Madness also says Greyhawk's Material is infinite and I reposted that bit of text below. So we have 4 sources, one of them from the same book, that says that Oerth's Material is infinite. The Material Plane part of the Manual of the Planes says that Material Planes are infinite and thus the info from the Manual of the Planes about Oerth has been overwriten, especially in 3.5e.
Ed and Rich are wrong then since the 3/3.5e lore doesn't support this.
You want to know what's funny about this? My family member who doesn't even know how D&D works or anything about this, understands how the cosmology works better then some posters and game designers just from reading the lore that WOTC has produced.
Further evidence shows that Greyhawk's Sphere of 2e is now a infinite Material Plane because of Lords of Madness, page 6. I'm carrying this bit of text over to FR's Material Plane even though they are seperate and different but both are infinite because of page 41 of the Manual of the Planes, the System Reference Document, and other lore since both are Material Planes.
"However, the Material Plane is indeed an infinite plane. It is filled with countless worlds, so inconceivably far removed from one another that only the most powerful of wizards can hope to travel from world to world. Each of these Material Plane worlds possesses its own unique conditions, and some of these distant worlds nourish strange and inimical forms of life. Aberrations form the remote reaches of the Material Plane come from worlds such as these, places stranger and more menacing than all but the most feasome Outer Planes.
"Because these far worlds are still part of the Material Plane it is possible to reach them via greater teleport, teleport circle, and similiar magic. In fact, it is possible for vessals with the proper magic to voyage between the worlds without any sort of teleportation. Flying ships (sometimes known as spelljammers) can reach the moon(s), nearby planets, or possibly even the worlds of other stars altogether. Journeying to a nearby world, whether is it the moon of the characters' own native world or a different planet in its own right, might require anything from a few hours to months or even years of star-sailing."
Notice there's no mention of Spheres. Also Greyspace from 2e lists no celestial body within it's Sphere that takes years to get to. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 May 2005 05:19:36 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 05:41:06
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Thank you Kuje, I have gone back and read the citations you are refering to but they all refer to the default Greyhawk cosmology. There is no text that says Toril's material plane is infinite. And in fact the Manual of the Planes says that Material Planes can be finite.
Now although I respect you greatly, I have to consider Ed Greenwood and Rich Baker to be higher authorities. When Ed and Rich weigh in on one side of an issue and you come down on the other, I am sorry but I gotta side with Ed & Rich. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 05:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Thank you Kuje, I have gone back and read the citations you are refering to but they all refer to the default Greyhawk cosmology. There is no text that says Toril's material plane is infinite. And in fact the Manual of the Planes says that Material Planes can be finite.
Now although I respect you greatly, I have to consider Ed Greenwood and Rich Baker to be higher authorities. When Ed and Rich weigh in on one side of an issue and you come down on the other, I am sorry but I gotta side with Ed & Rich.
Rich even specifically said his words are not official. So, sorry but Rich is wrong. As for Ed, well I can't say but based on the lore WOTC has produced, then I'm sorry but Ed is wrong as well. Manual of the Planes page 41 is not Greyhawk specific it is Material Plane specific for Material Planes. The SRD is not Greyhawk specific it is Material Plane specific for Material Planes. Even the Material Plane part in the 3.5e DMG is not Greyhawk specific, it is Material Plane specific for Material Planes.
So fine, as I said above. WOTC is going to chose to ignore thier own lore, again. Not a big surprise there.
And not to be harsh to Ed, but he's given conflicting info before.
May 4th, 2004 reply, "Rich Baker is THE expert on the Shadow Weave, but I certainly agree with him that it extends only as far as the Weave itself does: that is, throughout the Prime Material Plane of Toril (or the crystal sphere of Realmspace, if you prefer), NOT onto other planes."
Jan 27th, 2005: "kuje, Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerûn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as “gates”) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name “Forgotten Realms,” which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer).
Real-world Earth (where I live, and Elminster finds me to pass on his tales of this wondrous world we all buy divers products about) is but one of these dozens of Prime Material Planes that Toril is, or has been (and in some cases, will be again, as gates re-open in predetermined cycles or conditions, or are re-opened by the deliberate acts of various beings) directly linked to.
The elf realm of Faerie is one such Prime Material Plane, though it’s very different from, say, our real-world Earth (and yes, I’ll very soon answer Melfius as to how and where Faerie and Toril connect).
Most of these Prime Material Planes (from which various of the “creator races” hail) are similar to Toril in that they are vaguely-medieval-level carbon-based and copious-water environments very like Toril, and one can breathe the air and drink the water if one is a resident of one plane, and steps (via gate/portal or spell) from one to the other. Most of them exist both within their own crystal spheres (Spelljammer again, although in the majority of cases the inhabitants of these alternate Prime Material Planes are entirely unaware of the existence of crystal spheres, spelljammers, phlogiston, et al) and in the cosmology described in the ‘core’ D&D rules, where Limbo very much exists.
Everything but his last paragraph is supported by the lore for 3/3.5e. :) |
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Edited by - Kuje on 05 May 2005 06:10:40 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 06:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Rich even specifically said his words are not official. So, sorry but Rich is wrong. As for Ed, well I can't say but based on the lore WOTC has produced, then I'm sorry but Ed is wrong as well. Manual of the Planes page 41 is not Greyhawk specific it is Material Plane specific for all Material Planes. The SRD is not Greyhawk specific it is Material Planes specific. Even the Material Plane part in the 3.5e DMG is not Greyhawk specific, it is Material Plane specific.
All too true. However, it must also be remembered that Manual of the Planes is presented to provide the "basic" planar system from a generic perspective. The tome itself even states that the material presented within are basically just tools for a DM to create their own planar cosmology.
So, while what you've just said is true, it is only so, from one particular point of view, depending on how strongly you adhere to the rules and mechanics presented in all the rulebooks published so far to run your D&D game.
For my own view, I don't take anything in the MotP (and this includes both the 3e and 1e/2e versions) strictly as it is written, but rather as a general guideline only.
Following from this, Rich, Ed, you, Gray, and myself (should I mention Hamster ) can all be seen to be "right" about the planes regardless of what is written and supported in the canon material because in the end, the D&D world and its associate planar framework... is YOUR D&D world and its associate planar framework.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 06:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The SageSo, while what you've just said is true, it is only so, from one particular point of view, depending on how strongly you adhere to the rules and mechanics presented in all the rulebooks published so far to run your D&D game.
For my own view, I don't take anything in the MotP (and this includes both the 3e and 1e/2e versions) strictly as it is written, but rather as a general guideline only.
I'm not discussing my game. My game uses 2e's cosmology and always will. :) I'm discussing FR's 3e/3.5e canon, which was the original question over on the WOTC boards. :) Why do people feel the need to repeat this to people? Almost everyone knows that they can change the settings to suit what they want them to be.
As for the Manual of the Planes and the DMG, the Player's Guide also references both repeatedly and says see those books for more info. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 May 2005 06:47:33 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 07:04:26
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I didn't mean YOU specifically .
I meant YOU in general, as in all DMs. You as the DM. Every DM is free to interpret and use what they want, when they want.
FR's 3e cosmology is now set, and there will likely be little deviation from it in the foreseeable future. Unless of course a new D&D edition suggests further changes to independent settings. For the most part though, FR's planar structure is relevant now, for the setting itself. Although, I should note that both RL and DL, settings that were raised on the old TSR system of interconnectedness, still allow for the possibility of venturing (with relative easy) to worlds such as FR and EB -- although the Realms and Eberron are not mentioned specifically.
While I don't think it would happen, I wonder what the general outcome would be for all of this separate planar nonsense if PS were officially updated for 3e and published by WotC...
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FR's Prime Material Plane - Opinions
