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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 21:42:33
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From what I understand, when the gods were forced down, they had to choose a body to exist in to serve as their avatar, right? So, Tymora (For example) inhabited the body of a cleric of her faith for her time on the world.
Or were they just the gods themselves walking around?
If it's the first option, what happened to the people who served as hosts to the gods after the gods left?
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 21:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
From what I understand, when the gods were forced down, they had to choose a body to exist in to serve as their avatar, right? So, Tymora (For example) inhabited the body of a cleric of her faith for her time on the world.
Or were they just the gods themselves walking around?
If it's the first option, what happened to the people who served as hosts to the gods after the gods left?
The way I understand it is the avatars of the Gods during this time were simply manifestations (please Cyric let me have spelled that right since I'm away from a dictionary) of the various deities. Thus, they did not inhabit any previously existing person. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 21:58:55
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While I hate to disagree with someone who has, oh, golly, oodles more posts than I do, I have to disagree. The gods in the Time of Troubles WERE forced into the bodies of followers, and apparently had the ability to switch "hosts" (witness Torm moving from body to body investigating what's actually going on in Tantras, while his first host sat on his throne as a decoy in the book Tantras).
While we don't know what happened to all of the hosts at the end of the avatar crisis, details were sprinkled into later products and we can safely assume that some died (like Torm's host, again in Tantras), some were subsumed upon the return to godhood, and some remained mortal. For an example of the third, I turn to Demihuman Deities, page 143:
"Vartan Hai Sylvar is a gold elf who served as the avatar of Labelas during the Time of Troubles. While in mortal form, Labelas inflicted a great deal of pain and destruction on the isle of Ruathym and Vartan's companions, the crew of the Realms Master, causing Vartan to reject his god for a time. Eventually, Labelas and Vartan reconciled, but not before the gold elf had taught his deity a great deal about the proper exercise of his power and value of trust and friendship." |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 22:01:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
While I hate to disagree with someone who has, oh, golly, oodles more posts than I do,
 Thanks for the correction. I guess I misunderstood Faith & Avatar's use of manifestation.
SB |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 23:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
While we don't know what happened to all of the hosts at the end of the avatar crisis, details were sprinkled into later products and we can safely assume that some died (like Torm's host, again in Tantras), some were subsumed upon the return to godhood, and some remained mortal. For an example of the third, I turn to Demihuman Deities, page 143:
"Vartan Hai Sylvar is a gold elf who served as the avatar of Labelas during the Time of Troubles. While in mortal form, Labelas inflicted a great deal of pain and destruction on the isle of Ruathym and Vartan's companions, the crew of the Realms Master, causing Vartan to reject his god for a time. Eventually, Labelas and Vartan reconciled, but not before the gold elf had taught his deity a great deal about the proper exercise of his power and value of trust and friendship."
Thanks. ^_^
Now, aside from that blurb, is there any more lore on this? Like, how seperate the mortal and the gods beings were? Like, could they hold conversations, or was the mortal mind not really there while the god was in control?
*Starts to scour 2nd edition divine stuff* |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 23:14:44
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Yup, the gods had to use the body of a follower as their avatar.
Selūne didn't, because she was already hanging out in Waterdeep in avatar form. And Helm wasn't forced out, so he didn't have to take avatar form.
Bane's first avatar was a guy named Trannus Kialton, as I recall.
As for what happened to them... Well, some of them are still around. Bane used Fzoul as an avatar, for a while. We know that the Sibyl was an avatar of Sseth, and Vartan Hai Sylvar -- as mentioned above -- was the host for Labelas Enoreth.
Those three were all left alive at the end, and so far as I know, exhibit no side-effects of having contained a god.
But those who were slain in avatar form, the host body died, too. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 23:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Now, aside from that blurb, is there any more lore on this? Like, how seperate the mortal and the gods beings were? Like, could they hold conversations, or was the mortal mind not really there while the god was in control?
*Starts to scour 2nd edition divine stuff*
It depends on the deity... Bane wiped out the mind of his first avatar, but left Fzoul alone, mostly. Labelas Enoreth occasionally left Vartan alone, but other times took control of the body. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 01:30:40
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Hey Hoondatha,
A question for you if you don't mind helping someone who, oh, gooly has oodles more posts than you do...
In regards, to the gods needing to utilize the body of a follower as an avatar, is that always the case when a god utilizes an avatar in humanoid form? Or was this a certain condition only during the Time of Troubles?
Thanks in advance for any help here. I figure you would know.
SB |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 01:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Those three were all left alive at the end, and so far as I know, exhibit no side-effects of having contained a god.
What, you mean there isn't a template for it already? /sarcasm]
Thanks a lot. ^_^ Your facts now allow me to go ahead with an idea for an NPC I've been thinking of AND won a bet. Now I don't have to pay for pizza for 2 more sessions. Yay! |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 01:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Hey Hoondatha,
A question for you if you don't mind helping someone who, oh, gooly has oodles more posts than you do...
In regards, to the gods needing to utilize the body of a follower as an avatar, is that always the case when a god utilizes an avatar in humanoid form? Or was this a certain condition only during the Time of Troubles?
Thanks in advance for any help here. I figure you would know.
SB
Figured it was a rare event. :) But whose to say that deities don't take over mortals for other events..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 02:54:31
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That is possible.
There might have been occasions in the past where a deity felt that the best way to handle a particularly delicate situation (maybe between clergies, or to heal growing rifts between its faithful) was to take possession of a mortal form for a time. Regardless of whether this particular deity has a proxy, Chosen, or whatever, the deity may feel (depending on his/her alignment and portfolio) that he or she is responsible for mending such problems personally. The deity may believe that it takes his or her own presence rather than just some divine champion claiming that they are acting on behalf of the power (which may cause suspicion to form from either side in a clerical rift).
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 03:00:02
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I believe it was stated in the avatar series that taking over the body of a follower was only needed during the time of troubles. When a deity has all of their divine power they can simply manifest an avatar without utilizing a mortal body.
In the Crucible and Prince of Lies I believe a few deities took physical form without using a mortal (Cyric, Oghma, Mystra, Talos, and Mask if I remember correctly). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 03:28:35
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There was also possession of various mortals at the Dancing Place when the Harpers were re-founded in 720 DR. See "Code of the Harpers".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 05:42:29
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| Wasn't the mother of the Seven Sisters (her name escapes me at the moment) an avatar of Mystra? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 05:53:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wasn't the mother of the Seven Sisters (her name escapes me at the moment) an avatar of Mystra?
On page 7 of The Seven Sisters, it states that Mystra "possessed the body of a half-elven woman" (Elue Shundar). |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 06:06:20
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I don't think a god *needs* to use a mortal's body to create an avatar. As was pointed out, there are numerous cases of them not doing so. However, there are some cases (Liriel springs instantly to mind, as does Maxer Maxam) of gods making mortals their avatar. So really the answer to the question is both.
I considered asking Ed what the advantages/disadvantages are for either case, but I already know that his reply would be, "Well, we mere mortals can't really know." I would be curious to know if the god's choice (mortal, or out of whole-cloth) has special weaknesses. Also, do both automatically gain all the classes and levels as delineated for an avatar? I'm not sure.
As for what goes on inside the head of the mortal, I think cases differ radically depending on the circumstances and the god involved. Obviously Liriel retained at least some free will (it seemed to me that it was more of a "super power up" [for lack of a better term] for her, a source of more power that simply carried a heavy cost, and that Lloth wasn't dominant). On the other hand, Bane completely subsumed Maxer, and then didn't to Fzoul. My guess is that the answer to this question is "whatever the god wants at the time, perhaps mollified by the means by which the mortal became the avatar."
I hope all this blithering hasn't confused the subject. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 06:12:33
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| Jindael, to answer your second question about the people who served as hosts to the gods, most of these people are rewarded for their services after the deities regained their power. For example, Fzoul Chembyrl is now the Chosen of Bane after serving as Bane's avatar in ToT. Kossuth, the Lord of Flames, had possessed the body of a blackguard firenewt naemd Chassan. After he ascended back to his rightful place, the deity turned the creature into a deathflame as a reward for his loyalty. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 07:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wasn't the mother of the Seven Sisters (her name escapes me at the moment) an avatar of Mystra?
On page 7 of The Seven Sisters, it states that Mystra "possessed the body of a half-elven woman" (Elue Shundar).
I've always found this particularly interesting.
Of note also is how much consideration Mystra first put into choosing the right mortal "stock" to eventually breed with through Shundar.
I imagine Mystra would have spied several likely male candidates before settling on Dornal.
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Edited by - The Sage on 30 Apr 2005 07:05:43 |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 13:33:35
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Jindael, to answer your second question about the people who served as hosts to the gods, most of these people are rewarded for their services after the deities regained their power. For example, Fzoul Chembyrl is now the Chosen of Bane after serving as Bane's avatar in ToT. Kossuth, the Lord of Flames, had possessed the body of a blackguard firenewt naemd Chassan. After he ascended back to his rightful place, the deity turned the creature into a deathflame as a reward for his loyalty.
Where did you see that about Kossuth, DDH_101? Not that I doubt you, but there's a source that contradicts you. Granted, it's a 2e source. (Faiths and Avatars, p. 88, where it states that "During the Time of Troubles, Kossuth was not spotted in the Realms.") |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 14:03:47
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_Serpent Kingdoms_ Chapter 3
Oh and there is a difference in not being seen and not being there. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 14:11:52
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Faiths and Pantheons also suggests the same.
The history for Kossuth during the Time of Troubles alludes to the possibility that the Fire Lord may simply have been elsewhere in an attempt to avoid the godly calamity.
As such, he may not have actually been "elsewhere", but rather just kept quiet and "out of the way".
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Edited by - The Sage on 01 May 2005 14:15:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 15:27:20
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| Yup. There's a large number of gods whose exact whereabouts during the ToT aren't known, nor are there any details about their avatars. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 18:14:43
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Yup, Urdlen, for instance, actually spent the whole time digging up my grand-parents' garden. But I doubt we'll ever see that in print |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
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Edited by - Kajehase on 01 May 2005 18:15:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 19:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Yup, Urdlen, for instance, actually spent the whole time digging up my grand-parents' garden. But I doubt we'll ever see that in print
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 01:45:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Yup, Urdlen, for instance, actually spent the whole time digging up my grand-parents' garden. But I doubt we'll ever see that in print
Thank you for making me spill my morning tea all over my workstation...  .
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 01:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Thank you for making me spill my morning tea all over my workstation... .
You know by now not to have liquids near workstations. The army actually had that in one of their regulations on computers.
And speaking of avatars so my post is somewhat on topic, where did you find your new avatar? Self-portrait? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 02:41:35
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My personal favorite of the gods during the ToT is Moradin. He stood on the Long Bridge (only way for hundreds of miles to cross the river Rauvin [I think]) and dared a half dozen avatars of evil gods to pass him. None did, and therefore none were able to make it to Waterdeep and cause chaos there.
Man I wish there was a short story about that. Or even an EC Danilo bardic ballad. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 02:43:10
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| Wow! Where is that from? |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 02:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Thank you for making me spill my morning tea all over my workstation... .
You know by now not to have liquids near workstations. The army actually had that in one of their regulations on computers.
And speaking of avatars so my post is somewhat on topic, where did you find your new avatar? Self-portrait?
Okay, now that I've had a chance to clean up the mess...
It is actually, a rough approximation of myself, as rendered by the Lady K and several other artists from about 3 years ago. I no longer have the ponytail hairstyle, but I still do have to wear reading glasses, so the image is semi-accurate.
Continuing with the subject of *avatars*... I noted your new image as well. How did that come about?
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 03:14:39
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| Off topic: I wish I can see avatars. :( Silly Firefox still hates them since the upgrade. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 03:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Continuing with the subject of *avatars*... I noted your new image as well. How did that come about?
Even guys wish a change in style sometimes.  |
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ToT Avatar question
