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Celebrant Moonflower
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2002 : 23:13:18
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Well this is a huge controversey in my area which edition is better 2nd or 3rd. I have played both (and original rules) And Have found that 2nd is the most enjoyable in my eyes. I like the skills and feats system somewhat in 3rd but other then that I find characters getting more powerful faster in 3rd. Besides Nonweapons fill in just as well as skills, and feats well not much fill in for the way of feats unless you take a character class such as archer and get a called shot or something similiar.
Post your thoughts! 2nd or 3rd? or hey even original!
When has truth been utterly devoid of paradox?
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 00:01:38
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I never thought I'd say it but I'm really starting to like 3rd edition.
When it first came out I was adamant I wouldn't change, (I've got a book case full of 2nd edition FR books), but my wife bought me the 3rd edition Player's Handbook and I've now bought the rest of the core rule books myself.
I've played a few games of 3rd edition (I normally DM) and have found that 3rd edition is largely 2nd edition with a lot of the house rules I've used for years included. I particularly like the skill progression and feats.
When my party retire their current characters, we're starting 3rd edition. Once you start converting 2nd edition books the process gets quicker and it's only really necessary to convert the main characters. The other info in the 2nd edition books is just as relevant to 3rd as it was to 2nd.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which edition is best so long as you enjoy the game.
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 10:21:59
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I was the same as you Kahonen, i thought that 3rd edition was just a ploy by WotC to claim D&D as their own and i didnt want to change. However, I bought the new rule books and am very impressed at what theyve done, the rules appear much simpler and make more sense once you get used to them and prize yourself away from the 2nd edition style. Theres actually less to remember, no negative numbers, higher is always better etc.
And the new FR 3rd edition products are fantastic. The quality has never been so good, the layout, artwork and content is the best weve seen yet. Ok, so i miss the boxed sets, but i guess i was running out of shelf space anyway 
My only gripe is the lack of releases each year...... four products just is too few, especially when you compare it to release schedules of other games companies.
Rad
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ArcticKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 10:57:31
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My group still plays 2nd edition, we are all familiar with 3rd but still play 2nd...so i guess 2nd over 3rd
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 15:45:20
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when my group play we go for 2nd, we would try 3rd except we're so into this game, it seems stupid
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 19:13:30
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I finally received my copy of the FR Campaign Setting in the post today and I was quite disappointed 
Where are the maps? What has happened to Deneir (one of my favourite gods)?
I also don't like the way the history has changed.
I guess I'll just continue using the 2nd Edition Campaign Setting with 3rd Edition rules - it's gotta be cheaper anyway 
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 20:04:10
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you've got to get some expansions. you can get them from any good stockist, they make a game so much better.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 20:27:22
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Thanks for the advice but I've got them all.
I've been DM'ing in the Realms since the 1st edition Campaign Setting came out (circa 1987 IIRC).
This is the main reason I've taken so long to decide on moving to 3rd Edition - I've been through the hassle before when I moved to 2nd edition.
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2002 : 09:23:04
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how many maps are there, I've got quite a few, ut I can't find any more.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2002 : 11:49:34
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 I cant believe you didnt like the 3rd edition Campaign setting, Kahonen.
I love it, it doesnt even have a place on my vast FR bookcase as its always in use. The presentation and artwork are fantastic and the content is exactly what i wanted out of a core book.
Ill start a new topic on this to see what peoples opinions of the book are... (http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=46)
Rad
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2002 : 13:45:24
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I find it hard bealing with all the new idears and upgrades, I can never get used to them all.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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Rudolf_Weathermay
Acolyte
Belgium
5 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2002 : 19:45:35
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| I prefer second edition. I also have the basic third edition rulebooks but I don't like them very much. |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2002 : 19:47:21
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| Well there all good, you just have to get into them. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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Mask
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2002 : 16:56:29
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| I have to agree with Rudolf on this one. I also have the feeling that 2nd is way more detailed and broad. It could also just be me. |
Nothing is impossible! |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2002 : 19:37:53
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| Well they all can be, you just have to spread into them. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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Strahd Von Zarovich
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
135 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2002 : 19:43:39
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I have to agree with Rad on this one. 3rd Edition has just been a fantastic new lease of life for the campaign setting. I think the new books look as fantastic as the content within them.
It is also good to see that with the release of third edition new life has been breathed into our much loved settings such as Ravenloft and now the new Dragonlance series.
As with all things, times change and things progress and evolve. 3rd Edition is here to stay and bring the D&D setting to a new generation.
Strahd Von Zarovich
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Strahd Von Zarovich
Alaundo and I invite fans of everything D&D to join us!
http://www.worldsofdnd.com |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2002 : 21:29:49
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| Have you seen the stats for the Red Citadel. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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The Great Drizzt
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2002 : 07:33:57
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| My favorite Edition is still 2nd, Its what I know best, give 3rd edition some time till you can be sub-races, and work out all the other little bugs, and i'm sure it will be good too. |
"Don't poke Drizzt, 'tis highly unsociable!" Drizzt Do'Urden -BG1 |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2002 : 20:42:39
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| I wish there were some games where you could be things like Song Dragons. I mean you could turn human and turn into your natural form to fight. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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The Great Drizzt
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2002 : 03:22:21
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I have a Dragon campaign setting with dragon character sheets and all, its for 2nd edition, its called Council of the Wyrms, maybe you should pick it up tiax, it'll give you a break from all those lame Dwarf PC's your sooooo in love with. J/K man, I know how you feel, im always a dark elf.
The Great Drizzt |
"Don't poke Drizzt, 'tis highly unsociable!" Drizzt Do'Urden -BG1 |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2002 : 19:34:39
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| Well thats good you pointey eared outcarst Drow sucker, J\K, wait a minute no I'm not. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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The Great Drizzt
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2002 : 06:17:32
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Lol, Well to each his own I guess!
The Great Drizzt
P.S.-OOOOOAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!! |
"Don't poke Drizzt, 'tis highly unsociable!" Drizzt Do'Urden -BG1 |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2002 : 20:22:52
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| year, each to his own, I like the Mason work of skilled Dwarves, the mandratard of Red Wizards, and you, well you like the outcast Elves and other pond life. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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The Great Drizzt
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2002 : 08:20:20
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Yea, but not pondlife, its more associated with halfling i would think, i dont like them to much, you?
The Great Drizzt |
"Don't poke Drizzt, 'tis highly unsociable!" Drizzt Do'Urden -BG1 |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2002 : 14:02:18
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| No, I don't, all they are good for are Theives, or can folders. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2002 : 14:18:03
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LOL 
I assume you mean "cannon fodder" Tiax? 
I think Halflings are very under-rated. I never played one myself and people do tend to stick a "bard" or "thief" tag on them 90% of the time.... has anyone ever played a halfling as another class?
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 24 Sep 2002 14:19:02 |
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Strahd Von Zarovich
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
135 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2002 : 18:46:59
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As you know my dear Rad I once played a Halfling, and he was aptly name Meriadoc. A character which is still alive and kicking. Goes to show that the little folk can be quite resilient.
When is all this Gay banter going to stop on these boards. It is getting a little bit boring now. I wish that Tiax would just give it a rest so that Dritz does not have to reply back with even more gay banter.
Please lets get back to a decent forum and stop filling it with your gay spam!
The Count Strahd Von Zarovich
www.strahds-library.co.uk
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Strahd Von Zarovich
Alaundo and I invite fans of everything D&D to join us!
http://www.worldsofdnd.com |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2002 : 20:28:57
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| I had a Harfling monk called Isodeen Bink once. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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BoneHead
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2002 : 07:37:31
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Well one of my players doesnt like the new rules, or rather, he doesnt want to take the time to get to know them and the new artwork has totally turned him off to 3e.
Ive done all i know to do to get him interested but the only thing that even made him blink in interest was my offer to convert 2e's gothic earth setting to 3e.
I like 3e, seems easier to understand and has plenty of flexibility a creative dm can utilize, but nothing i say will help get this guy into it. He has played about 4 games of 3e (excellent games, all the other players had a blast and he should have to)and now its hard to get him to come over and make a character for it, he was a rules lawyer and doesnt want to take the time to learn the new rules to lawyer with.
To me, aside from artwork, 3e is simpler, easier to add to, interpret, and change, and overall a better system in my opinion, the only thing i miss about 2e is the core rules program.
We all do hate the new generations mentality (wotc's official boards at least)concerning how the game is approached though, you know what i mean, the "magic the gathering" way of thinking that all us vets know is a campaign crippler.
You know, the way they think the game is only run a certain way, the "official" way, and that strict computer like adherence to rules wordings and their incumbent loop holes (cleave + whirlwind, immortal vampires ect), that is silly and counter productive, not the way a rpg is supposed to be.
=================================================================
AnyWay....
Getting rid of him is not an option, we have been gaming together since the 70's, but it seems if i play 3e i have lost him.
The other players are veterans too, but love the new rules minus the artwork (one guy had the unearthed aracana cover laminated over his phb and taped his own sketches over the interior artwork in places)and the only thing they miss about 2e is the core rules as well.
What should i do here?
Go back to 2e to keep my friend in the group?
(the others would do so reluctantly if i retain some of the better features of 3e in our 2e games such as how multiclassing is done)
Put it all on hold until he reads & understands the new rules?
What if after that he still doesnt like them?
Help please!!!!!
Opinions!!! Please!!!
How many here have tried both for at least an entire campaign?
Which did your groups prefer and why?
I am getting depressed someone please help here give me input..... |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2002 : 09:33:15
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Welcome to the Candlekeep Forums, Bonehead!
hmmmmm, quite a problem you have there! How many are in your group? Its good that all the others have given 3rd edition a chance and a quite enjoying it, although I dont understand the problem with not liking the artwork, certainly to a point where they feel the need to cover it with old artwork....1st edition at that!! Still, each to their own!
I think the problem with your player lies with the fact that hes a rules lawyer. He sees himself at the moment, when you play 2nd edtion, as THE guru and master of all knowledge of 2ed, moving to 3ed takes away his status and makes him feel more inferior whereas before he stood tall. It will also make it harder for him due to the fact that the other players havent shown a dislike to 3ed and are quite happy to continue playing with those rules.
What do you think would happen if you told your players that the campaign is on hold until they have all read the 3ed PHB or something?
I suggest to try that method. Maybe just do a few chapters at a time, like "ok, by next game everyone should be familiar with...." I think that if youre all enjoying 3ed then you should stick with it. I was very reluctant to switch to 3ed, but after sitting down with the PHB and DMG and going through it, I found that the rules are much much better, make more sense and are easier to work with, and now i LOVE 3ed! I never thought id see the day but there ya go!
I know that leaving him out isnt an option, but maybe if you called his bluff and stated that youre sticking to 3ed and thats final, then he may learn to embrace it. Many people hate change, its human nature to stick with what you know, knowledge is power and he has that knowledge to make him feel good. If you all agree to learn together then the transition shouldnt be too hard for him.
Hope this helps.
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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BoneHead
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2002 : 08:34:51
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Thanks for the reply, i gave him my spare copy of the 3e phb tonight and told him he has 7 days to skim over the basics, understand the action types, read about character creation & advancement, get the jist of combat and magic, ect, and he agree'd that he would make the time to do so.
I repeatedly told him just to read a little, that it wasnt gonna be an exam or anything like that, just to read about how 3e handles all the 2e rules he has memorized, and that he could call about any questions.
I think, since for me 3e brought back that 1e feel(assassins & barbarians yay!), that he would truly love it, especially once he see's how the one xp chart simplifys things and the new multiclass & feats systems give him more customization ability than ever before.
I hope he truly does read through it with an open mind instead of going fishing instead, and i know that if he will just wrap his mind around it he will see that it is more streamlined and even hearkens back to his favorite edition, 1e, with such staples as the barbarian & assassin, whose loss as classes he griped about when 2e came out.
Heh this reminds me, he did this same thing with each new edition as it was released, and even said tonight that he would still be playing 1e if we hadnt changed to 2e on him. I told him that in a lot of ways it was like 1e again, and that it is a time again when he can know the rules without having more books beyond the phb.
His response was "thats probably true, but these new books give me a different feel than the old ones, i dont like the feeling, sure what i saw of the game was much simpler than what 2e had evolved into near its end and even incorporated by default some of the nicer things that came along such as attacks of opportunity, but for some reason to look at these shiny new things and their art makes me feel this version of the game is aimed at younger people, the DBZ crowd, and my friend....we are NOT young anymore".
Theres not much i can do for him about the artwork, i dont know if its the color scheme or what but my group of 6 all say the new artwork is cartoonish.
I tend to agree, i prefer the artwork of earlier editions such as elmores' pieces, stuff like the first color painting in the front of 2e's phb or the cover of the old red basic D&D boxed set for levels 1-3.
Ive been coming to this site off and on, and many others just as sporadiclly, i started running forgotten realms back during the 1e to 2e transition, and have always found this place to be an excellent resource, more so than the offical wotc even, but it took this situation to compel me to look for a forum link so as to ask for assistance.
Anyway ill stop hijacking this thread now and just say:
Ive played through them all and like each new rules set better than its predecessor.
I swear each time a new edition is about to be released that i wont go for it, but after picking up the books in the store and skimming through them i am always won over.
This last time the feeling of "ill never change!!" was stronger than ever, especially since i had invested so much money in FR products for 2e, but one glance in each of the 3 core books at the bookstore and i was saying "wow that makes great sense! streamlined! a must have! ill convert my stuff over....wow look it converts easy as heck!!!"
Thanks again, and i hope he comes around on this, since everyone but him was won over after an hour or less of skimming through the phb.
Cheers all. |
Edited by - BoneHead on 28 Sep 2002 08:44:09 |
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Favorite Edition
