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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 14:25:22
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Having just read the latest RA Salvatore interview, he notes that we'll be getting a novel 'next' re Bruenor and his quest to find the lost city of Gauntlgrym.
Some of the comments in the Hunters Blades Trilogy re Gauntlgrym don't quite match up with what we've learned of this place in "Lost Empires of Faerun". I hope he has a read of LEoF before he gets into too much of a writing frenzy.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
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Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 15:43:53
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Some questions:
-Is the title of the coming novel known, and when will it be released?
-Any clues of what's in the novel (plots, new characters, etc.)?
-Will Wulfgar die this time? (wishful thinking on my part there)
-Will the story see the group crossing paths with Jarlaxle and Entreri? RAS has done quite a number of cameos in his previous works (Cadderly and gang) |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 15:55:18
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of the comments in the Hunters Blades Trilogy re Gauntlgrym don't quite match up with what we've learned of this place in "Lost Empires of Faerun". I hope he has a read of LEoF before he gets into too much of a writing frenzy.
-- George Krashos
Interesting point to bring up. I didn't realize there was some inconsistency between his novel and the gaming product. How bad was it? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 15:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Some questions:
-Is the title of the coming novel known, and when will it be released?
-Any clues of what's in the novel (plots, new characters, etc.)?
-Will Wulfgar die this time? (wishful thinking on my part there)
-Will the story see the group crossing paths with Jarlaxle and Entreri? RAS has done quite a number of cameos in his previous works (Cadderly and gang)
Check out the thread on Candlekeep to the interview that George mentioned. Not much is known at this time about the novel mentioned in this thread. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 16:32:01
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| Luckily there's enough time between the 2 product for him to work out the inconsistencies. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2005 : 00:03:49
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| Sirius, several of the locations that RAS mentioned in his trilogy did not exactly match up with LEoF. Then there was also some of the lore behind Gauntlgrym that wasn't exactly correct. There were other ones too but I gotta look them up... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2005 : 01:49:20
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Well, it's a question of dates and people and scattered references in novels and gaming products.
Eric Boyd did a detailed analysis during the work-up of DDGttU re the founding dates of Blingdenstone and Mithral Hall (this stuff never saw print except obliquely).
"Siege of Darkness" and "The Legacy" both talk about Gandalug Battlehammer and his leaving Mithral Hall (to be captured by Yvonnel Baenre) "2000 years ago", just after its founding. This gives a founding date for Mithral Hall in the -600s DR (I pegged it at about -621 DR or so in my North Timeline IIRC). In fact, Mithral Hall and the Ironstar kingdom were neighbours and co-existed for some 800 years as noted in DDGttU.
LEoF gives us a founding date for Gauntlgrym in or about -320 DR or so. Obviously this is after the founding of Mithral Hall. Gauntlgrym then falls (for the first time) during the Orc Marches of -100 DR which devastates all of surface Delzoun also. It is later refounded by settlers from Illusk and then abandoned once again due to illithid attacks.
The problems arising out of The Hunter's Blades trilogy is that Bruenor talks about Gauntlgrym being around before Felbarr (which it wasn't) - although it was around before Adbar. Similarly, it appears he's missed the crucial fact about the place which is that it was built FOR humans by the dwarves of Delzoun. It wasn't a dwarven city per se and was located outside the territory claimed by Delzoun.
Bruenor notes that Gauntlgrym fell 'long before' Gandalug was born, which if you look at the dates above is simply wrong. Gandalug had been captured three centuries before Gauntlgrym was constructed and couldn't have known anything about the place. Messy, messy, messy.
I hope RA Salvatore consults some of the FR brains trust like Rich Baker, Ed and Eric Boyd before embarking on a writing project that is going to cause a ton of headaches to reconcile with the current information.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2005 : 02:46:11
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I hope RA Salvatore consults some of the FR brains trust like Rich Baker, Ed and Eric Boyd before embarking on a writing project that is going to cause a ton of headaches to reconcile with the current information.
-- George Krashos
Interesting. Thank you George and DDH for the replies. I wonder why someone in the novels' department hasn't addressed these inconsistencies with the author or caught them. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2005 : 02:59:59
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Hmmm... maybe it can be reconciled by saying there was something there before it was oficially founded as Gauntlgrym.
Maybe it was a natural series of caverns that was lightly mined or delved by dwarves long before Gandalug was born and then abandoned due to orc or goblin attacks.
Maybe the Dwarves came back in -320 DR, cleaned out the goblinoids, expanded and finished out the caverns to found Gauntlgrym proper as a gift to the humans.
Or maybe Bruenor just had too many ales, and either fudged the history or made it up wholecloth to embelish his story.
Or maybe Bruenor actually believes his version, but his father, or grandfather told him the story wrong on purpose to cover up a family secret, perhaps a great personal shame! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2005 : 07:49:54
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On reflection, the only solution I can come up with (and I hate doing this) is that there was another Gauntlgrym, that was a part of Delzoun, or was solely a city of the dwarves of Delzoun.
This "first" Gauntlgrym existed before -1500 DR (the date given for the construction of Felbarr) and fell sometime before -600 DR. In fact (and this is a question I wrestled with for a little while during work on LEoF before the answer became redundant) what was the capital of Delzoun? If it was Felbarr, what was the capital before -1500 DR? Maybe it was a place called Gauntlgrym ...
The builders of the "second" Gauntlgrym (the Fardelver clan led by Immar) may have originally been from the "first" Gauntlgrym and named the second in memory of the first.
Quick, someone get Phil Athans and RA Salvatore to read this thread!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 19 Apr 2005 07:51:09 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 03:17:24
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Normally I defer to the rule of Waukeen in matters of publishing . . . i.e. WOTC is a business, and their job is to make money, which is neither a good nor evil pursuit, but rather a function of their existance as a business entity . . . however . . .
RAS is the BIG GUN . . . he sells bigger than anyone. I am afraid that all of our wonderful lore on the Delzoun will be thrown out the window and rewritten if RAS decides to write his epic and rework everything we already know . . . becuase he is the BIG GUN.
What really bothers me is that RAS used to be counted on to be up on all the rules in the Realms and all the new AD&D rules, and managed to tie them all together well. In recent years, however, he seems to want to make it all conform to him and his whims.
Maybe I am being too harsh . . . and I really did use to love his books. The last trilogy really was a non starter with me, at least the last two books. I actually had very high hopes after The Thousand Orcs. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 03:45:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Maybe I am being too harsh . . . and I really did use to love his books. The last trilogy really was a non starter with me, at least the last two books. I actually had very high hopes after The Thousand Orcs.
Mr. Salvatore tends to produce passionate responses be they positive or negative. Thus, I don't believe you are being too harsh.
As for the last trilogy, I'm the exact opposite of your experience with the first novel. I tried to read the first novel to see if I could enjoy the characters after a break of several years from Drizzt and company. My attempt was unsuccessful. Thus, I didn't finish the trilogy as there was no enjoyment by this FR fan when reading about these characters.
However, I did keep an eye/ear open to see how the trilogy concluded. New orc nation now? Is that correct?
I was going to see about reading the new Artemis book coming out later this year. However, the conclusion to the WOTSQ series and Mr. Salvatore providing some details about the novel in a new interview have convinced me that when it comes to this author's FR offerings, I'm just going to have to pass on them. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 04:16:55
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Yes, Obould has Dark Arrow Keep and has a large number of tribes pledged to him as the Kingdom of Dark Arrows, though due to events at the end of the book has to go around to the various tribes now and prove that he is still alive.
Alustriel has told Bruenor that she will help guard his caravans since they pass through the contested area, but she will not commit troops to dislodge his keep, since it would cost a lot more lives than it was worth. The implication is that she might be willing to deal with Obould if he proves to be a permanent force. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 05:16:35
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Alustriel has told Bruenor that she will help guard his caravans since they pass through the contested area, but she will not commit troops to dislodge his keep, since it would cost a lot more lives than it was worth. The implication is that she might be willing to deal with Obould if he proves to be a permanent force.
What are the geographical boundaries to this new orc nation? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 06:27:52
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| I'll get back to you when I can refresh my memory . . . tis late and I've worked lo this entire weekend . . . my weekend starts tomorrow, lol |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 06:58:38
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
What are the geographical boundaries to this new orc nation?
If I'm not mistaken, but it's the entire mountain side surrounding Mithral Hall the west gate that leads out to the River Surbin.
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As far as Hunter's Blades vs Realms Lore go, I really seen no evidence or defense that leads me to believe him writing in 1370 about events that were supposed be taking place in current day (as per Silver Marches) were exactly his fault. He didn't know about Silver Marches until AFTER it was on the shelf and as I recall, was shocked by it.
I think it was just the other way around. Wizards probably said, great he's writing about a big orc build up in the North, we know this much information, so let's leave it vague in Silver Marches and let his novels fill in the blanks of the supplement.
But that's just me and the eternal hatred I carry for the fact that no one actually working for Wizards is held accountable for supplement/novel contiunity nor supplement/novel coordination. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 07:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
If I'm not mistaken, but it's the entire mountain side surrounding Mithral Hall the west gate that leads out to the River Surbin.
How far south does it stretch? Just to the end of the mountains or do the folks in Nesme have to start learning an orc national anthem?
quote:
He didn't know about Silver Marches until AFTER it was on the shelf and as I recall, was shocked by it.
That's the way I recall hearing the tale. He was at some convention and a question was posed to him about the gaming product.
quote:
But that's just me and the eternal hatred I carry for the fact that no one actually working for Wizards is held accountable for supplement/novel contiunity nor supplement/novel coordination.
Well, let's see how they handle the changes from the WOTSQ series come gaming products that focuses on the dark elven society and deities. The author of the last novel in the series has put forth what he thinks took place per the end of the novel. Thus, I'm curious to see if a gaming product matches up to his information. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 14:11:00
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| Nesme was trashed by the Trolls allied to the orcs of Obould's confederacy. Silverymoon pledged to help the survivors rebuild after the winter. A lot of Mithril Hall dwarves died defending the refugees. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 15:01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Nesme was trashed by the Trolls allied to the orcs of Obould's confederacy. Silverymoon pledged to help the survivors rebuild after the winter. A lot of Mithril Hall dwarves died defending the refugees.
Ah, thank you for that information. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 16:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
If I'm not mistaken, but it's the entire mountain side surrounding Mithral Hall the west gate that leads out to the River Surbin.
How far south does it stretch? Just to the end of the mountains or do the folks in Nesme have to start learning an orc national anthem?
That should have been except the west gate that leads to the River.
quote:
quote:
He didn't know about Silver Marches until AFTER it was on the shelf and as I recall, was shocked by it.
That's the way I recall hearing the tale. He was at some convention and a question was posed to him about the gaming product.
Yeap.
quote:
quote:
But that's just me and the eternal hatred I carry for the fact that no one actually working for Wizards is held accountable for supplement/novel contiunity nor supplement/novel coordination.
Well, let's see how they handle the changes from the WOTSQ series come gaming products that focuses on the dark elven society and deities. The author of the last novel in the series has put forth what he thinks took place per the end of the novel. Thus, I'm curious to see if a gaming product matches up to his information.
Why do you think they're pretty much avoided mentioning the underdark since WOTQ started? :)
Probably so they don't look foolish again.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 16:56:18
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Why do you think they're pretty much avoided mentioning the underdark since WOTQ started? :)
Wasn't there a whole tome devoted to the Underdark?
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Probably so they don't look foolish again.
When did they first look foolish? |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 16:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Wasn't there a whole tome devoted to the Underdark?
How much of it actually dealt with WOTSQ underdark?
quote:
When did they first look foolish?
Silver Marches. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 17:55:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
How much of it actually dealt with WOTSQ underdark?
What would you label as WOTSQ underdark? |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 18:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
What would you label as WOTSQ underdark?
The effects of WOTSQ on the Underdark. Destroyed cities, demon armies, the new Lolth. None of it was really covered was it? |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 19:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
The effects of WOTSQ on the Underdark. Destroyed cities, demon armies, the new Lolth. None of it was really covered was it?
If I recall correctly, the series was only two books old when the gaming tome came out. And the gaming product had the destruction of Ched Nasad listed within it. Thus, what did they miss from the novels that had been published? |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Nesme was trashed by the Trolls allied to the orcs of Obould's confederacy. Silverymoon pledged to help the survivors rebuild after the winter. A lot of Mithril Hall dwarves died defending the refugees.
And Bruenor is quite pissed at Nesme because those dwarves died because the human leader Galen Firth was a stubborn asshole who refused to listen to good advice. If Obould and his gang weren`t around, Nesme would probably be jumped by Mithral Hall, Citadel Felbarr AND citadel Adbar.(The Nesmians are really good at maintaining good relationships with the dwarves )
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If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
And Bruenor is quite pissed at Nesme because those dwarves died because the human leader Galen Firth was a stubborn asshole who refused to listen to good advice.
What advice did he not listen to?
And there is such a thing as good dwarven advice? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:42:58
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| Regis originally sent a troop of dwarves with Firth to save the refugees. The dwarves found more refugees. General Dagna tells Firth and co. to come with them back down the dwarven tunnels to wait out the winter, and come spring they would come back and retake Nesme. Firth attacks immediately, and Dagna and his troops die defending the refugees, and another group of dwarves show up and finally tell them to retreat. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 07:31:22
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| People of Nesme got what was coming to them if you ask me. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
People of Nesme got what was coming to them if you ask me. :)
You are damn right.
Stupid humans. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 07:57:43
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Old thread, I know. But Krash has mentioned this particular conflict often, here at the Keep. And with <Amazon> alleging that Salvatore's next book will involve Gauntlgrym, I thought the subject bore reexamination.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of the comments in the Hunters Blades Trilogy re Gauntlgrym don't quite match up with what we've learned of this place in "Lost Empires of Faerun".
I'd just like to point out that Bob wrote his references to Gauntlgrym in the books of "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" back before LEOF was published. I am not familiar with all of the backstory on Illusk and the refugees who founded Gauntlgrym, but that specific timeline in LEOF came out after he put Gauntlgrym into the mind and mouth of Bruenor. So how is Bob at fault for not incorporating a 2005 lorebook's info into novels released in 2002, 2003, and 2004?
Is it possible that the design team for LEOF is the party at fault, here, since they failed to incorporate Bruenor's recollections from "THBT" in the early 2000's into the 2005 lorebook LEOF?
Or, maybe Bob overlooked even older, existing lore from other lorebooks, rather than LEOF. Perhaps those publications are what he should be chastised about?
quote:
I hope he has a read of LEoF before he gets into too much of a writing frenzy.
Regardless, I'll pass this info on to him by e-mail. He definitely should see it. Wouldn't want him to overlook any of this lore, from any of the sources. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 22 Feb 2010 08:02:50 |
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RA Salvatore - Bruenor & Gauntlgrym
