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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 03:14:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's part of the reason I tend to disregard Faiths & Pantheons.
Personally, I think that that retcon sucks out a lot of the flavor of the gods. They've always been able to manifest at least one avatar in the past, but now they have to take a special feat to do it? Bah, I say. I think that all deities should have that ability as a built-in feature of their godhood.
So out with the 3E deity rules, in with the 2E rules. 
Not to mention the fact they ditched alot of the old "flavor text" that was in the 2e books.  |
Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 03:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's part of the reason I tend to disregard Faiths & Pantheons.
Personally, I think that that retcon sucks out a lot of the flavor of the gods. They've always been able to manifest at least one avatar in the past, but now they have to take a special feat to do it? Bah, I say. I think that all deities should have that ability as a built-in feature of their godhood.
So out with the 3E deity rules, in with the 2E rules.
Not to mention the fact they ditched alot of the old "flavor text" that was in the 2e books.
That's the biggest reason to ignore Faiths & Pantheons in favor of Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 03:20:51
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| I was thinking it was about time for 4E to emerge...How long has 3E been out? Since ToT? |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 03:25:22
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I might be in the minority here, but rules for Gods seems really…pointless. Do I really need a stat block? A stat block that tells me if they can or cannot have an avatar?
All that space about avatars and divine abilities is wasted on me. I've been playing D&D in all it's incarnations for 21 years, and I've never run into an avatar that needed stats or used an avatar in one of my games that I needed to find out if they have the great cleave feat or proficiency in the bastard sword.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 03:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
I was thinking it was about time for 4E to emerge...How long has 3E been out? Since ToT?
ToT was the change to 2nd Edition. 3ed has been out for like..5 years or so, I think. It's probably got another 5 years in it before WoTC thinks they can give us a new edition. :p |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 03:50:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I might be in the minority here, but rules for Gods seems really…pointless. Do I really need a stat block? A stat block that tells me if they can or cannot have an avatar?
All that space about avatars and divine abilities is wasted on me. I've been playing D&D in all it's incarnations for 21 years, and I've never run into an avatar that needed stats or used an avatar in one of my games that I needed to find out if they have the great cleave feat or proficiency in the bastard sword.
I agree with you. :) And even WOTC has backed off from the policy. I was just commenting, per the rules as writen for 3e, some of them can't have avatars and thus it's screws with the old lore. Azuth was my explain. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 04:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I might be in the minority here, but rules for Gods seems really…pointless. Do I really need a stat block? A stat block that tells me if they can or cannot have an avatar?
Look through some gaming products and one would get the impression that a game isn't a game without stats on gods and/or their avatars.
quote:
All that space about avatars and divine abilities is wasted on me. I've been playing D&D in all it's incarnations for 21 years, and I've never run into an avatar that needed stats or used an avatar in one of my games that I needed to find out if they have the great cleave feat or proficiency in the bastard sword.
You're not alone in your feelings. And forgive me again, but if I have an avatar or god show up in my game, I don't plan for it to matter whether or not he/she has a certain feat. After all, remember a scene from a certain novel series
quote:
"Should we interfere?"
Both Ryld and Valas glaned up at that, their faces stricken.
"He's a god." Ryld managed to call out above the deafening clamor. "What do you purpose we do?"
Condemnation by Richard Baker, p. 330
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Edited by - SiriusBlack on 20 Apr 2005 04:14:22 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 04:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
ToT was the change to 2nd Edition. 3ed has been out for like..5 years or so, I think. It's probably got another 5 years in it before WoTC thinks they can give us a new edition. :p
I posted a news story on some thread several months back where one of the higher ups mentioned that we will not be seeing 4e any time soon. |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 13:48:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
ToT was the change to 2nd Edition. 3ed has been out for like..5 years or so, I think. It's probably got another 5 years in it before WoTC thinks they can give us a new edition. :p
I posted a news story on some thread several months back where one of the higher ups mentioned that we will not be seeing 4e any time soon.
...Then they really need to reform their 3E. Because it is pointless for a God to have a needed ability to manifest an avatar. It should esssentially come with the package In my opinion, unless your a Demi. Then that should essentially come down to that deities "level" and such. Nutty.. |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 14:07:27
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Well. I went into a long and elaborate explanation about Salient Divine Abilities, Feats, Skills, Tarrasques and Miniature Space Giant Hamsters.
By the time I was done, my boss realized that it took so much time that he had to postpone my meeting, since he had another, more important one coming up. Or maybe he merely labelled me as crazy and wanted to get some distance.
So I suppose it worked, of sorts :P |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 15:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
...Then they really need to reform their 3E. Because it is pointless for a God to have a needed ability to manifest an avatar. It should esssentially come with the package In my opinion, unless your a Demi. Then that should essentially come down to that deities "level" and such. Nutty..
I understand your frustration. And perhaps a future product will feature the update you want. As for 4E, I'm just curious which God/Goddess will be coming back from the dead when that edition is released. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 17:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
...Then they really need to reform their 3E. Because it is pointless for a God to have a needed ability to manifest an avatar. It should esssentially come with the package In my opinion, unless your a Demi. Then that should essentially come down to that deities "level" and such. Nutty..
I agree. It should be a built-in function of being a deity. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 17:46:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Or maybe he merely labelled me as crazy and wanted to get some distance.
That often seems to happen when discussing Miniature Giant Space Hamsters... I'll be dipped if I can figure out why. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 19:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
As for 4E, I'm just curious which God/Goddess will be coming back from the dead when that edition is released.
Maybe they will kill some god instead of bringing someone back........... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 20:17:04
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Maybe they will kill some god instead of bringing someone back...........
Let's see 2E...death of gods was big theme
Then 3E, Bane returning was a big theme
3.5E  Did this not even warrant a god theme?
Appears if there is a pattern, you might be right, who will die this time? |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 20:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Maybe they will kill some god instead of bringing someone back...........
Let's see 2E...death of gods was big theme
Then 3E, Bane returning was a big theme
3.5E Did this not even warrant a god theme?
Appears if there is a pattern, you might be right, who will die this time?
No idea whatsoever. I don`t even know all the gods on toril. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 22:14:59
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The Prophesies of Jindael, concerning the fate of the divine beings upon the undertaking of fourth edition.
Much of the Mulhorandi pantheon will be consumed by the larger, general population of Faerûn deities.
Anhur will be partially consumed by Torm (Torm the God, not Torm the sharp witted thief…althought THAT would be interesting, no?). Only partially; Talos will covet the Portfolio's of Thunder and Rain to add to his power, however, the nature deities will not be so quick to allow the Rain portfolio to fall into Talos's hands.
The worship of Geb will slowly move across the realms. However, since he is essentially a god of Miners and Smiths, the following will be small.
Hathor will be quietly absorbed into Selûne. Most people won't even notice.
Horus-Re will not be quietly consumed, and the rift between the followers of Horus-Re, Lathander and Siamorph will erupt into small pockets of violence. However, the end result will be that Lathander will agree to disagree, and Siamorph will be consumed by Horus-Re. This will cause a number of Waterdehavian nobles to affect some Mulhorandi fashions and attitudes. Not for religious reasons, but simply for the entertainment value.
At the urgings of Mystra, Isis will move into larger realms worship to use her portfolio of Good Magic to balance the effects of Velsharoon. (Since Mystra has to be neutral, and Azuth is neutral, there needs to be a good deity of magic.)
Nephthys and Waukeen will voluntarily merge, with no real distinction in their treatment of the clergy. Most people won't even realize that they are the same deity.
Osiris will maintain his own unique identity, gradually taking on the appearance in mortal eyes as a Thresher of the Undead, creating a cult of distinct flail wielding paladins who hunt the world of Faerûn for those who have cheated death of it's toll.
Sebek will be easily consumed by the already aggressive Tiamat in a brief struggle.
Set will not go quietly. He won't go at all. He already has power over portfolios that Shar, Bane and Cyric covet, including some that were also held by Myrkul and Bhaal, Portfolio's that will surely interest the above deities. (Talona would love to get her hands on some of this, but she won't make a play for it under Shar and Bane's watchful and jealous eyes.)
Thoth and Azuth will willingly merge. Their merging will be celebrated by the magical construction of a great center of learning for Art that will produce a number of highly talented, but very structured wizards and clerics. A side effect will be a larger distinction between Sorcerers and Wizards, causing some strife.
In a addition, I provide the following quote from Faiths and Pantheons.
quote:
Theologians predict it may be only a matter of decades before all human cultures of the continent venerate only the deities of the Faerûn pantheon, a fate the Mulhorandi and their deities view with great alarm.
/End Mulhorandi gods.
As far as the rest of the Faerûn pantheon…well, let me catch up on the current crop of novels before I start to spew about them.
The Demi human gods won't have that many changes:
The Seldarine will see the addition of Alobal Lorfiril, mostly because people will see the deity in Races of the Wild and add him in. Besides, an elven god of "Revelry, hedonism and excess of all kinds…" is something that will attract a lot of people. Elf fanboys tend to want the best of everything for elves and will gladly steal elf lore from everywhere. Trust me, I know this. *hugs his copy of The Complete Book of Elves
The halfling deities will see the addition of the Dark aspect of Yondalla, Dallah Thaun.
Other deities might show up from the other racial splat books as well.
But, for the most part, there won't be many changes in the non-human deities. There might be a movment to make the generic non-human deities more Realmsian by adding some history differences, but I don't see much in the way of drastic change from what is written now.
So sayeth I :p
EDIT:
I suppose I should add that the demi human deities wont have some event that adds them; they will simply be added to the list of available deities, like they have always been there. There won't be something like:
*knock on the door*
*Correlon opens the door to see Alobal standing there.*
Correlon: Dude…you are…*looks at his watch* SERIOUSLY late.
Alobal: Eh, you lot were doing that "retreat" thing, and that didn't sound like fun. But now, since it's over, the party is here! *walks in, grabs some chips* So, where is this Shar chick I've heard about?
*record screeching, party stops*
Hanali: You mean Sharess.
Alobal: Yea. That. Anyone got her number? And isn't there another Shar person?
Hanali: There's Sharindlar.
Alobal: Sounds hot!
Hanali: She's a dwarf.
Alobal: I'd hit it.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
Edited by - Jindael on 20 Apr 2005 22:47:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 23:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Maybe they will kill some god instead of bringing someone back...........
Let's see 2E...death of gods was big theme
Then 3E, Bane returning was a big theme
3.5E Did this not even warrant a god theme?
Appears if there is a pattern, you might be right, who will die this time?
I don't know that I'd call Bane's return a big theme... It got a blurb in one book, and not much beyond that.
I would, however, say that the theme of 3E is returns. Star elves, sarrukh, Shade, Deep Imaskari, Bane, the end of the elven Retreat, the Thunder Blessing... Possibly even the return of Selunarra, if they decide to play that card. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2005 : 23:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
The Prophesies of Jindael, concerning the fate of the divine beings upon the undertaking of fourth edition.
Actually, I can see a lot of this happening...
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
EDIT:
I suppose I should add that the demi human deities wont have some event that adds them; they will simply be added to the list of available deities, like they have always been there. There won't be something like:
*knock on the door*
*Correlon opens the door to see Alobal standing there.*
Correlon: Dude…you are…*looks at his watch* SERIOUSLY late.
Alobal: Eh, you lot were doing that "retreat" thing, and that didn't sound like fun. But now, since it's over, the party is here! *walks in, grabs some chips* So, where is this Shar chick I've heard about?
*record screeching, party stops*
Hanali: You mean Sharess.
Alobal: Yea. That. Anyone got her number? And isn't there another Shar person?
Hanali: There's Sharindlar.
Alobal: Sounds hot!
Hanali: She's a dwarf.
Alobal: I'd hit it.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 02:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Maybe they will kill some god instead of bringing someone back...........
Let's see 2E...death of gods was big theme
Then 3E, Bane returning was a big theme
3.5E Did this not even warrant a god theme?
Appears if there is a pattern, you might be right, who will die this time?
I don't know that I'd call Bane's return a big theme... It got a blurb in one book, and not much beyond that.
I would, however, say that the theme of 3E is returns. Star elves, sarrukh, Shade, Deep Imaskari, Bane, the end of the elven Retreat, the Thunder Blessing... Possibly even the return of Selunarra, if they decide to play that card.
I can see much of that happening for several reasons.
1. They (Wizards) seemed to have been realsing new information as of late.
2. Corellon and Crew are on their boat, sailing back. Simple as that. And! Depending on how Ressurection ends, this might speed him (all in the sense)
3. Don't know what the Thunder Blessing is, heard of it but don't know of it.
4. Selunarra - This one has made people go gah-gah. People want to see a two great (Former) Netherese cities go at it. Mainly when it comes to Shar V. Selune again. Plus, it is almost time for Shar's power to start wanning (I believe Wanning, and not waxing for Selune will be doing that).
5. Deep Imask - Eh...I'm unsure. They've locked them selves up for so long, they see no rush.
The other ones I have no comment on. |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 02:52:00
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Yeah, the "returning" theme does seem to have been a feature of 3E when you do a retrospective of products and events.
Some of the 'returns' were obviously Novel-driven (Shade), some were 3E mechanics-driven (Thunder Blessing) and others were simple design decisions for flavour or because they were considered to be a good creative decision.
Of all of them, the one that I had the most issue with was Shade. Not because I disliked the plot element, I just didn't like HOW it was done. I would have preferred that some survivors of Shade (20-50 individuals) returned to the Realms (maybe with the malaugrym in hot pursuit) and were more subtle re their plans and machinations for the events of the Return of the Archwizards novel trilogy. I would have liked the Shades to have a less obvious and overt profile in the Realms and to work (no pun intended) from the shadows ala the Twisted Rune.
What we got was Royal Rumble XXIII with lots of flashy, whiz-bang battles and guest appearances from Chosen, dragons, Vaasan super-warriors (that's one that is still lost on me - why the heck did they pick Vaasa??? Surely the barbarians of the Ride or the Tunlands with their Netherese heritage would have been easier to use, incorporate and add some flavor ...) et. al.
My FR experiences have shown that if you start something small, or use a low-key reference, then DMs always have the power and scope to expand the reference and make it big and "Realms shattering". How the heck does a DM truly use the Shades as a sinister, unknown manipulative entity after the events of the RotAW? I know it's do-able, but not with ease.
That's why I think Opus/Selunarra is a great plot development. If you want it in your campaign - it happens. If not, they stay in Selune's plane. Simple, neat and multi-functional. DMs also control how Opus enters their campaign, whether as a city to rival Shade or a couple of agents who work against them through intermediaries (like PCs) etc.
Of course, the above comments of mine have no real validity - it's just my take on a creative decision and how "I" would have done it. They are in no way intended to convey the impression that my ideas are better; they're just a viewpoint.
But that really is the beauty of the Realms: there are so many tangents and directions you can go. I might not agree with all of them, but I certainly am glad that something is happening and the Realms continues to thrive. They'll always get my support and $$$. Even if they bring Slade back.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 03:13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
What we got was Royal Rumble XXIII with lots of flashy, whiz-bang battles and guest appearances from Chosen, dragons, Vaasan super-warriors
Yes, the Shades return was definitely made into an event which was no doubt brought about by the desire to draw attention the FR 3E. A more subtle approach would have been very interesting to see. Alas, subtle is not really a style that society these days notices. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 03:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that I'd call Bane's return a big theme... It got a blurb in one book, and not much beyond that.
You don't think it was hyped as a big theme of the new edition? If not, than our experiences with WOTC's promotions are vastly different. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 04:21:44
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that I'd call Bane's return a big theme... It got a blurb in one book, and not much beyond that.
You don't think it was hyped as a big theme of the new edition? If not, than our experiences with WOTC's promotions are vastly different.
I honestly don't know of *any* WotC hype surrounding Bane's return. I know they say he returned, and that's about all the info I've seen. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 04:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
3. Don't know what the Thunder Blessing is, heard of it but don't know of it.
Moradin blessed the dwarves (but not the duergar) with the Thunder Blessing in 1306. Before then, the dwarves were in decline. After the Thunder Blessing, their birthrate has soared to about half that of a young, vigorous human realm. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 04:32:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
3. Don't know what the Thunder Blessing is, heard of it but don't know of it.
Moradin blessed the dwarves (but not the duergar) with the Thunder Blessing in 1306. Before then, the dwarves were in decline. After the Thunder Blessing, their birthrate has soared to about half that of a young, vigorous human realm.
And there's a feat that goes along with this. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SomeDude
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 04:46:01
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| If I'm not mistaken, the Thunder Blessing is where you find the dwarven twins(with the feat), right? |
This is the highest my post count has ever been. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 05:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SomeDude
If I'm not mistaken, the Thunder Blessing is where you find the dwarven twins(with the feat), right?
Aye. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 05:33:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I honestly don't know of *any* WotC hype surrounding Bane's return.
Consider yourself blessed them. Must be nice to live a charmed life. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 05:34:16
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
And there's a feat that goes along with this. :)
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Avatars
