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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:19:20
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From ENWorld today I saw two FR books had gotten reviews from D20 Magazine Rack's website.
Within each write up, the reviewer, Mr. Steven Creech had this to say about
Elminster's Daughter:
quote:
Will the cast of characters never end? To be honest, I had a really hard time keeping characters straight in my head. There are a lot of named secondary characters and its really difficult understanding their relationships to the main characters and the story
and
War of the Spider Queen: Dissolution:
quote:
Another complaint has to do with the large cast of characters. There were times when I wasnt sure just who was who and what the relationship was that existed at that moment. You need a scorecard handy to keep them all straight despite the fact that most were minor characters
Did any scribes have difficulty with either novel?
I did not and, to quote a TV show I once liked, I'm not the brightest star in the heavens.
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Edited by - SiriusBlack on 15 Apr 2005 17:21:17
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:23:44
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Can't say I've ever had this problem, especially with TSR/WOTC novels. Very odd.
I can think of some other novel series that have over 10+ characters and I always manage to keep the characters straight. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I did not and, to quote a TV show I once liked, I'm not the brightest star in the heavens.
Would it be rude to agree with that?  
I've not read the latter novel, but I had no such problems with the first one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:44:28
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| If Mr. Creech needed a scorecard for those novels, then he'd better never start to read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:45:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
If Mr. Creech needed a scorecard for those novels, then he'd better never start to read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time...
That was the one I was thinking of as I wrote my above reply. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:59:59
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| For someone that hasn't read Ed's other works, Elminster's Daughter might have too many characters to follow or now about, but I totally don't see that being a problem with Dissolution. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
If Mr. Creech needed a scorecard for those novels, then he'd better never start to read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time...
That was the one I was thinking of as I wrote my above reply. :)
Most definitely agreed! You read about a character in book 2 then don't see them again until book 10 and you're supposed to remember where they're from, who's side they're on, and what their special little quirk is. I'm still a fan though, atleast he puts the appendix in the back to describe them all.
As for realms novels. I have never had a problem following them. I have not yet read any WotSQ though. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
If Mr. Creech needed a scorecard for those novels, then he'd better never start to read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time...
That was the one I was thinking of as I wrote my above reply. :)
Most definitely agreed! You read about a character in book 2 then don't see them again until book 10 and you're supposed to remember where they're from, who's side they're on, and what their special little quirk is. I'm still a fan though, atleast he puts the appendix in the back to describe them all.
You know that's why novels usually have a couple blank pages at the end? To take notes. Wizards usually fills up those pages with ads, but you look into more classic literature and whatnot and you'll find a plethora of blank pages. That's what notetaking's for!
quote:
As for realms novels. I have never had a problem following them. I have not yet read any WotSQ though.
I don't think you'd have any trouble following WotSQ. The names are very different, generally, so it's not tough -- I always get mixed up when the names look alike or sound alike.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
If Mr. Creech needed a scorecard for those novels, then he'd better never start to read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time...
That was the one I was thinking of as I wrote my above reply. :)
Not surprising. So many similar characters (especially the female ones), so little difference in their personalities...
I've never had problems keeping the characters of FR novels straight in my head, maybe due to my love of lenghty novel series. The characters having distinct personalities from each other's is also a big help, no matter what the genre. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:22:51
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I can think of some other novel series that have over 10+ characters and I always manage to keep the characters straight.
I was trying to think of a WOTC novel that was difficult for me to keep a listing of characters straight. However, I can't come up with one.
Perhaps Forsaken House if it did not have the Cast of Characters Roster at the back of the novel. Yet, I doubt it. The only non-Realms novel that comes to mind is Black Hawk Down. However, that novel had easily hundred plus names mentioned not a couple of dozen or so. And when I couldn't recall someone mentioned, I simply utilized the index to find out where and if he had last been mentioned so I could get a reference on who was being discussed. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Would it be rude to agree with that?
Yes, and be nice. I put that self-deprecating remark in there to make up for some of the other thread titles I almost used when posting this. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
If Mr. Creech needed a scorecard for those novels, then he'd better never start to read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time...
Or George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. That group of novels has an appendix listing members and servants of each House. That feature I have had to utilize at times when reading this series. But, again, we are talking about a hundred plus names. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:30:47
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
For someone that hasn't read Ed's other works, Elminster's Daughter might have too many characters to follow or now about, but I totally don't see that being a problem with Dissolution.
I have not read the other Elminster works before reading ED. But, I had no trouble. However, you do have a point, that might be a possible problem for some. As for Dissolution, I agree with your statement. Aren't most of the characters in that novel new to the Realms? Thus, previous history would not be a problem for a new reader. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know that's why novels usually have a couple blank pages at the end? To take notes. Wizards usually fills up those pages with ads, but you look into more classic literature and whatnot and you'll find a plethora of blank pages. That's what notetaking's for!
Write? In my books? My precious books! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know that's why novels usually have a couple blank pages at the end? To take notes. Wizards usually fills up those pages with ads, but you look into more classic literature and whatnot and you'll find a plethora of blank pages. That's what notetaking's for!
Write? In my books? My precious books!
That's what I was thinking. Eeeeeeeee gods! No farking way! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 19:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
If Mr. Creech needed a scorecard for those novels, then he'd better never start to read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time...
Or George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series. That group of novels has an appendix listing members and servants of each House. That feature I have had to utilize at times when reading this series. But, again, we are talking about a hundred plus names.
Actually, I did think of ASOIAF when making my post, but the reason I didn't mention it is because I'm so familiar with that series I can actually keep nearly all the characters straight in my head. Of course the fact that the women in ASOIAF are not cast from the same haughty, sniffing, know-better-than-any-man, can't-admit-she's-wrong-without-torture mold helps. |
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thekosta
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 19:16:35
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| The guy that did those reviews is a book critic? You must not need to know anything to get that job. The only time I ever remember not being able to keep names right was LotR and i first read that when I was 10 about 20 years ago. George rr martins didn't have a problem. Robert Jordan nope no problem. Tsr/WotC never once had a problem. If it is so hard to keep the characters straight then that guys is in the wrong profession. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 19:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by thekosta
The guy that did those reviews is a book critic?
Mr. Creech is more than just a book critic via the site. As I thought from recognizing his name, he has worked with many companies and products that I am familiar with.
quote:
You must not need to know anything to get that job...If it is so hard to keep the characters straight then that guys is in the wrong profession.
I understand your frustration. Yet, when I created this thread, I was not looking to criticize the critic. More, I wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one who felt differently.
As for online reviews, a very skilled and extremely arrogant former TSR employee once lectured me on how little regard is given to online reviews. I wonder if given Mr. Creech's extensive background in gaming, his review would be considered an exception. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 21:24:55
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| I always have problems remembering the names of minor characters. To quote the Nathrezim Varimathras from warcraft: "I believe his name was Garabon or Gilithos or something like that. Human names all sound the same to me". |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 00:29:11
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'Too many characters' in that 'review'* is the same kind of observation as the 'too many notes' criticism of Mozart. The Realms, not just those particular novels, has lots of interrelated characters which it does not divide into the 'major', 'minor' and 'secondary' ranks both those pieces tellingly assume.
(Then there's those amazon.com 'reviews' which praise books for being 'easy to read'...)
* I'm not using these quote marks just to be sarcastic, but because the review is an honoured and worthy form, requiring skill and talent, and a title most online 'reviews' do not deserve. |
Edited by - Faraer on 16 Apr 2005 00:33:30 |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 02:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I did not and, to quote a TV show I once liked, I'm not the brightest star in the heavens.
Would it be rude to agree with that?
I second that motion.
I've not read El's Daughter but I have read the latter. I didn't find it or any other FR novels hard to follow. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 04:39:08
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I still haven't read ED (is it out in paperback yet? Much as I like Ed, I don't have the money for hardcovers...), but I haven't had any problems with the WotSQ books.
About the only TSR book I can think of that gave me a little trouble with names was Evermeet (understandable since it's essentially 10,000+ years of history), and even that was minor. Most FR authors do a good job of making the names of character dissimilar.
To be honest, I think I've been reading Realms books for so long it's become imprinted in my psyche. Makes it easy to deal with Realms names (though I still can't *write* them to save my life...  ). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
To be honest, I think I've been reading Realms books for so long it's become imprinted in my psyche. Makes it easy to deal with Realms names (though I still can't *write* them to save my life... ).
Which is why I said Elminster's Daughter may be a problem. There are just a few *snickers* of Ed's characters in there and if you aren't up on your Realms lore you're going to be lost because it doesn't waste space on half a page of backstory. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:35:00
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Am currently about to delve into the 10th book for the Wheel series, and so far, I haven't had much if any trouble keeping things straight. The only thing that I think I stumbled on, was some of the ressurrected people, who now have new identities, but even that was barely of note. as for FR novels, never had a problem with them. Keeping 10-20 characters straight in a novel isn't hard to me, I mean, u need that many just to make a novel I thought... They tend to get kinda dull if it's just 2-3 people interacting with eachother, and noone else? I mean, that's fine for a short story, but for a Novel, (to me, something exceeding 200pages), that much book, about a couple people interacting with eachother, would tend to feel pointless I think. But yeah, can't say I've ever had a problem with FR novels... or any others I can think of off the top of my head.
Kar |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
The only thing that I think I stumbled on, was some of the ressurrected people, who now have new identities,
Resurrected people that have new identities? Are you ser-...nevermind  |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 16 Apr 2005 05:37:21 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 06:03:44
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I myself did not have this problem at all. FR novels often have very unique characters with different attributes, styles, etc, because this was how authors tried to distinguish themselves from other FR authors. I find that FR novels are the easiest to remember with names or identites of a character.
In fact, even the Return of the Archwizard trilogy, with like over a score of different characters (with a dozen different princes of Shade), it was not that hard to remember or figure out.
I find that complaining about a large cast of characters is stupid with FR novels, because the Realms is such a large place with so many different NPCs. It is through the creations of such characters that keep the Realms interesting and alive. If every novel only had one character named Bob, sure it would be easy to "keep track" of characters, but would you really want to read the book? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 13:00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
The only thing that I think I stumbled on, was some of the ressurrected people, who now have new identities,
Resurrected people that have new identities? Are you ser-...nevermind
Yep, a couple of bad guys who got killed were brought back by putting their spirits into bodies. Of course, if they die again, their boss is going to(if this was FR) make them envy the False and the Faithless. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 15:35:22
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 And here I've been reccomending the FR-books as "easy-to-read" books to friends that aren't to comfortable with reading English. Guess everything's relative eh? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 15:36:23
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| And if you want a series where everyone gets resurrected over and over again, bad guys as well as good guys, try Katherine Kerrs Deverry-series. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 18:58:48
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Well, I can see what the reviewer is talking about. I too had some problem keeping track of the minor characters Ed threw at me in Elminster's Daughter.
That said, I read it over a longer period while reading other books as well, so I can't really blame Ed. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 20:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
And if you want a series where everyone gets resurrected over and over again, bad guys as well as good guys, try Katherine Kerrs Deverry-series.
Every bad guy does not come back in the wheel of time. Only the Forsaken even have this slimm chanse. And if they get hit by Balefire, not only their bodies but their souls get destroyed as well, so they can`t come back. Does anyone here who is reading the wheel of time know if there is a spell in FR that acts a bit like Balefire? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Topic |
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Are certain Realms books too difficult to follow?
