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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 09:42:11
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Well, I've searched the forums and I've found no specific Crucible discussion thread around and was rather surprised. I've just finished the book and I must say this is the best FR book I've read to date (although i'm about to start Forsaken House soon which some claim is the best).
Anyway, MAJOR SPOILERS ON THE WAY
Plot 10/10
I laud Troy Denning on a good job in setting up Malik's journey and the Trials and how it was conducted. I really loved the way how the plot twisted very unexpectedly, not to mention all the parties (Mask, Talos, Tempus etc.) trying to manipulate things so that the how the trial went and so on. But the best twist to me was Malik's decision to read the True Life instead of the Cyrinishad to Cyric. There was no inconsistencies in which I could note and the plot was not rushed (except for Mystra's sudden realization of her duties at the end). The book kept me reading non-stop and I couldn't put it down. Troy Denning also put up a marvelous theme to the story which was the duty of the gods and I liked the way it played out in the Trials.
Characters & Development 8.5/10
I must admit I've seen better characters but nonetheless most characters in this book were very good and a lot underwent great development through the story. This applies especially to Malik, the POV character for much of the story. I usually do not like coward characters but this man's determination and intelligence was amazing (although he did have Tyr's protection for much of the story). The way he controlled himself into seemingly lying to Cyric even with a truth-spell on him is laudable (although Cyric himself is also to blame).
Kelemvor, Cyric and Mask were all interesting characters (or should I say gods). Kelemvor's quick realization and his hasty changes to what he should have done before has removed him from my hated FR characters list. Cyric and Mask with their manipulations (although one not too successful) also helped carve the story.
On the other hand, I didn't particularly like how Troy Denning brought Ruha back into the story. In my opinion anyone could have played Ruha's role in this story and she wasn't very interesting to read about. Mystra, while I could read her scenes with slight interest, just made me hate her so much. Perhaps because of the book being told in Maliks POV but I just thought her failure to see the obvious was kinda insulting to her.
Originality 9.5/10
I must say that the whole religious books idea from Prince of Lies was a very original idea. Not only was that idea continued into the story, the addition of a Trial(or two) with so many twists in it and the journey of one man to defy his god for the god's good was very original. I've never read another book with as much originality and this definitely deserves full scores. However I'm sad to say that the addition of Ruha hurt this score by half.
Writing Style 9/10
The first person POV writing style was put to good use here. Although from my understanding it is very difficult to carve such a tale, Troy Denning's ability to finish the book and not only make it have a good plot astonished me. The book also made you think like Malik and that was a good plus for me. As I said I ended up hating Mystra. The reason I didn't give full marks was because I couldn't really understand the layout of Candlekeep and Zhentil Keep in this book and I think describing layouts is one of Troy Denning's weaknesses (refer to Return of the Archwizards Trilogy).
Setting 3.5/5
As I said places weren't described well but the setting of some settings like the Temple in Eversult and the Pavilion of Cynosure was described better. Besides that, Candlekeep brought some nostalgia to me after a long time of not playing Baldur's Gate.
X-Factor 5/5
I gave X-factor full marks because I really like this book despite it's flaws. Aside from that this book was original while keeping a good plot and some minor things which I enjoyed was Avner of Hartsvale's attempt at freeing Mystra and Fzoul Chembryl's cruelty (since Shadowdale, I've always thought him a coward).
Overall: 45.5/50
Some question after reading the book:
1. Going by Troy Denning's likeness to include old characters in his book, was Avner of Hartsvale and Prince Tang characters from his previous books (Avner seems to have come from Twilight Giants Trilogy and Prince Tang from Dragonwall)?
2. What do you think Cyric has in plan for Malik? He mentions that he has something he wants Malik to do but when the time comes. Any ideas or has Malik already done that?
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Edited by - Paec_djinn on 28 Mar 2005 09:53:29
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 10:36:18
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Well met
Many thanks for the detailed review, Paec_djinn. A job well done and breaking the review down into these categories is a good idea.
I too enjoyed this novel, it made a nice change to be reading first-person and Troy Denning made it work very well. I did, however, enjoy Price of Lies (by James Lowder) much more than Crucible. I won't go into this any further here, but i'd also like to hear thy review on this in another scroll perhaps  Thanks again. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 12:26:57
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Prince Tang was introduced in The Veiled Dragon. So far as I know none of the characters from Dragonwall have been used elsewhere.
Avner was indeed in the Twilight Giants trilogy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 13:26:12
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Well, I just thought about reviewing books this way as I read Crucible and it's been awhile since I read Prince of Lies. The next time (if there is one) I re-read Prince of Lies I'll try to do it. Thanks for the compliment anyway.
Wooly, thanks for replying. Hmm... Denning's style of reusing characters is very amusing but lack originality. He just uses too many people and they somehow ALWAYS are connected. |
Edited by - Paec_djinn on 28 Mar 2005 13:30:20 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 13:57:14
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Great review, I agree with most of it. Crucible is also my favorite Realms book of all time though I read it quite a while ago and can't remember all of the specifics.
quote:
Originally posted by Paec_djinn
What do you think Cyric has in plan for Malik? He mentions that he has something he wants Malik to do but when the time comes. Any ideas or has Malik already done that?
Like I said about not remembering specifics, when did Cyric say this too Malik? If it was before the books conclusion than his plan for Mailik may have been to make him the Seraph of Lies. If it was after naming him the Seraph of Lies than perhaps it is something that hasn't happened yet.
I know if Return of the Archwizards Malik's job was to help Cyric gain control over the Shadow Weave but I highly doubt he was talking about that already.
I know Wooly already answered your second question but I just wanted to throw in my 2 coppers.
I really don't mind when authors use the same characters if there is a reason for them to do so. I thought Malik was an excellent addition to the Archwizards trilogy. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 21:40:53
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| My biggest beefs with this book: Malik's perspective gets highly frustrating sometimes and Malik, being the author's darling, can kill Gwydion and Rinda without breaking a sweat. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 23:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Paec_djinn
[brWooly, thanks for replying. Hmm... Denning's style of reusing characters is very amusing but lack originality. He just uses too many people and they somehow ALWAYS are connected.
I've liked some of his characters, but after a while, I get tired of seeing them in every single book... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 00:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
My biggest beefs with this book: Malik's perspective gets highly frustrating sometimes and Malik, being the author's darling, can kill Gwydion and Rinda without breaking a sweat.
Yeah, Malik casually killing those two and getting away with it really bugged me, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 04:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
My biggest beefs with this book: Malik's perspective gets highly frustrating sometimes and Malik, being the author's darling, can kill Gwydion and Rinda without breaking a sweat.
Yes, that bothered me, too. Author's darlings bother me, as a rule, and Malik was a rather blatant example of one. |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 14:21:34
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Well the killing of Gwydion was rather odd considering a character like Malik. Rinda was much more logical but the way she just jumped into his knife was pathetic. The elixir Cyric gave him made him braver and maybe that's what allowed him to use his perhaps untapped power of leaping-over-people-and-slitting-throats.
But yeah I agree, that scene was very rushed to me. I forgot about that scene when I wrote that review. If I had remember I probably would have given this book less for writing style. But nonetheless, this is still my favourite FR book and I don't seem to be getting into Forsaken House just yet. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 17:46:02
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I agree with you all about Gwydion. I mean, the man was an ex-Purple Dragon who fought Dendar the Serpent and survived. He also had that sword, Titanslayer, which Torm gave him. Then at the end of Prince of Lies, Kelemvor gave Gwydion special powers too, such as not needing to sleep.
I seriously don't know how Malik could kill him, and he wasn't even Seraph of Lies at that time. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2005 : 17:54:26
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| Agreed!!Gwydion and Rinda should have been kept alive. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 02:59:28
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| Not to mention Rinda, being a pretty darn important cleric of OGhma coulda called up a spell to smite Malik...hell, Fzoul got divine aid from MASK at one point...and not barring the fact that good ol' Gwydion went really badly...I didn't buy that AT ALL |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 03:44:56
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| I don't think Rinda was a cleric of Oghma. Yes, she was favoured and blessed by the Lord of Knowledge but I don't think she had clerical skills. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 04:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I don't think Rinda was a cleric of Oghma. Yes, she was favoured and blessed by the Lord of Knowledge but I don't think she had clerical skills.
Rinda, 9th Bard, Female Human, NG, Created the Cyrinshad for Cyric, Heroes Lorebook
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 04:40:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I don't think Rinda was a cleric of Oghma. Yes, she was favoured and blessed by the Lord of Knowledge but I don't think she had clerical skills.
Cleric or not, she was clearly in his favor and should have had some sort of protection going on, other than Gwydion.
Her and Gwydion's removal from the story seemed almost an afterthought... Like he wrote the book, and then someone pointed out that they had the Cyrinishad, so with a few minutes to spare he went back and whipped up that scene.
Or, to be fair, Denning could have been the victim of the same editorial axe that has mangled so many of Ed's novels. That possibility cannot be discounted. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2005 : 23:55:12
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| I do believe that is the case Wooly....Though it can easily be said that the story wasn't really about Rinda and Gwydion.It was about Cyric...As lame as that can be. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 11:32:24
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quote:
It was about Cyric...As lame as that can be.
I beg to differ. To me it was Malik's story on how he thought of curing Cyric. As I've said the plot of the story has to be one of the best ones ('cept for the flaw in the Rinda/Gwydion scene which really should be a writing flaw not a storyline flaw). I don't think it's lame. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 19:44:48
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| I basically said that tongue-in-cheek.I enjoyed The Crucible alot.But was the story really about Malik????That's very debatable. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 01:41:52
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| I don't think of Crucible as a story about Malik or Cyric. To me, it's just a novel to update the events since ToT. The book featured a wide array of characters, and I didn't think of anyone as "the protagonist" in that novel. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 03:52:52
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I like the novel, too. same thoughts about the rinda/gwydion stuff.
but as an afterthought: could it be that he defeated them so easily,
escpecially rinda, because they were locked away from godly stuff.
say rinda would get a spell cast on her, would mystra know. 
and as rinda could not be observed by any god, who could shield her? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 05:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Songrimm
I like the novel, too. same thoughts about the rinda/gwydion stuff.
but as an afterthought: could it be that he defeated them so easily,
escpecially rinda, because they were locked away from godly stuff.
say rinda would get a spell cast on her, would mystra know.
and as rinda could not be observed by any god, who could shield her?
The inability of deities to see or shield her still doesn't mean that those two characters should have fallen so quickly to a wimpy guy with a dagger. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 17:26:17
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Hey, who said malik is not cabable of offing someone.
never seen any stats around for this guy. as he survived the moat of hot whatsoever and climbing the tower he must have some very high ranks in climb and swim. calls for a high level thief to me. give him the feat where he can use his dex-bonus to strike and so on and on...
he is just to humble to say he is a master assasine. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 18:10:32
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quote:
From Dragon #245:
10th-level Thief
STR 11
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10
95% in Climbing walls. Although Master Assassin ...-1 to enemy's surprise as a Special Attack. (Is that good or bad btw? Never played 2nd edition).
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There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 18:16:56
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sorry, i should have said high-level assasine.
but otherwise thx for the stats.
so anyone want to make him a 3.x char?
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Crucible: TTOCTM Discussion (Spoilers)
