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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 15:03:10
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I think the main comment will probably be 'any more where that came from?' 
Edit: I've just read the chapter now. I enjoyed it.
There are far, far too many questions in my head, the main one being, of course, 'what happens next?' |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 23 Mar 2005 15:08:14 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 17:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
For those interested, I've posted a sample chapter from "Resurrection" on my website.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/paulskemp/
I'll go out on a limb and say you might have a tiny bit of interest.
First, thank you Paul Kemp for posting the sample chapter. I really wish WOTC's own site did this before a book's release.
Second, thanks to Ed Gentry for converting the story to .PDF format and hosting the chapter.
Third, I haven't been able to read the whole chapter yet, but just skimmed over it. I'll avoid posting spoilers in this thread. But, I'm very excited by who I see talking to this new character.
Looking forward to April,
SB |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 18:13:33
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| Question: Is Inthracis the same being as Anthraxus? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 18:39:31
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| Very interesting so far. When is this comming out? |
I'm always the Wizard! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 19:01:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
Very interesting so far. When is this comming out?
April 15th is the listed date that WOTC has provided. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 19:57:43
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Thanks Paul for this sample chapter.You just have to love it when a novel starts out with a powerful demon being bullied by a deity.... |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 20:24:37
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Thanks Paul for this sample chapter.You just have to love it when a novel starts out with a powerful demon being bullied by a deity....
Bully is such an ugly word for that deity. Coerced seems more fitting.  |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 23:38:30
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| Alright SB....Coerced,but you got to like the beginning though. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 01:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Alright SB....Coerced,but you got to like the beginning though.
Indeed, I thought it was a wonderfully written chapter. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 10:22:40
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Very well written, evocative and awesomely detailed. The atmosphere of the place was distinctly yugoloth, as was the Ultroloth's feelings on the actions of a chaotic goddess. That said, I noticed some interesting things:
The Blood Rift more and more seems to resemble a hybrid Gehenna/Gray Waste. Granted I'll never use the 3e FR cosmology, but that's beside the point. There's alot of Great Wheel / Planescape names that are being reused in the Blood Rift, but with cosmetic name changes. For example: The layer of Khalas of Gehenna gets changed to the layer of Calaas of the Blood Rift. The unique yugoloth Bubonix becomes the ultroloth Bubonis. Anthraxus goes from being unique to being 'just' an Ultroloth, though it was spelled Ultraloth in the chapter. Also, Khin-Oin is replaced with the Steel Keep apparently.
Other things I noticed:
Since when do Yugoloths spawn from larvae? "Some of the souls would be transformed into lesser yugoloths
to fill-out Inthracis’s or another ultraloth’s forces." They never have, ever, and that fact was repeated so often to make your head spin. They spawned directly from the essence of their plane and didn't actually have a direct link to mortal petitioners. *shrug*
Now despite the abberant cosmology etc the writing was very done and I could overlook the setting changes etc. However one thing disturbed me, and it's a matter of opinion here. Why is a second rate evil deity waltzing into the native plane of yugoloths where no deities reside and casually threatening apparently the second most powerful fiend in the entire plane, plus mentioning that he'd destroy the single most powerful one like it was a walk in the park. Then why haven't the evil deities parked themselves in the 3 wholly fiendish planes and parcelled it out to themselves for their own use? Shouldn't the whole deity/archfiend relationship be the opposite way around when it's on the home plane of the fiend? Really rubs me the wrong way there. Deities can have an evil alignment. Fiends are evil alignment. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 25 Mar 2005 10:24:18 |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 14:20:10
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Hey Shemmy,
Maybe I can offer a point or two that can put your mind at ease, as well as those of other Planescape fans.
As you point out, Gehenna no longer exists in FR cosmology. My intent, in using names similar to those associated with Gehenna and the Great Wheel cosmology, was to give a respectful nod to the old material (for fans like yourself), but without contradicting the new FR cosmology. In my own mind, I conceptualized the Blood Rift and Gehenna as distinct realities and planes but with a strong enough metaphysical connection between them to cause one to distantly reflect the other in its inhabitants, flavor, and places.
I think the view that yugoloths spawn directly from their plane, rather than from the transformed souls of petitioners, derives directly from Planescape. But because Planescape is no longer core, I relied only on the reference in the PGtF regarding the fate of petitioners. That reference provided that larvae are sometimes transformed into one type of fiend or another, usually a dretch or lemure. I didn't read that as excluding the possibility that a larvae could be promoted to some form of lesser 'loth, since loths too are fiends. Anyway, if it helps with the dissonance, consider the Blood Rift and its yugoloth residents to be different than those of Gehenna and the Planescape multiverse. Perhaps in the Blood Rift, yugoloths sometimes spawn directly from the plane and are sometimes created from larvae by powerful ultroloths. In truth, I personally find it more coherent that most all types of fiends spawn from larvae or other raw souls, rather than springing from the soil of their plane like Athena from the head of Zeus. Obviously, just an opinion.
As for the point regarding gods and archfiends, we'll have to agree to disagree. In my own mind, a lesser god would find little challenge from anything less than itself, irrespective of the venue, and Inthracis, despite his power on his own plane, is not divine. As for why the gods don't parcel out the fiendish planes, we might also ask why the greater gods don't wipe out the lesser gods, the demigods, the archfiends, and claim the bulk of the multiverse as their own. Surely Bane, for example, would find it trivial to annihilate all of the Archdevils. So why doesn't he do so and claim the Hells for his own? We can only speculate as to the answer, but my point in raising the question is to illustrate that there is nothing unique about the yugoloths or the Blood Rift(or Gehenna) in the context of that question. We could ask it about the whole of the multiverse (and the Prime Plane). Why don't the powerful rule/take the stuff of/destroy the less powerful?
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 16:49:00
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Thank you very much Paul, I really do appreciate the candor. :)
On the name similarities etc: your intention there does make sense. And even if I'd have handled it differently, the intentions and reasons you had do help. I can respect how you went about it and appreciate the nod to the material.
On the 'loths: Alright, that makes sense. The petitioner thing did come out in Planescape, but than again around 98% of the detail on them as a race came out in PS as well. If I had to guess about why it wasn't mentioned in PGtF I'd hazard that it was either an oversight, or since 'loths weren't in the first 3e MM, they tend to get overlooked in a lot of instances. Again I'd have done it differently, but I can respect how you went about it given your reasoning here.
And on the last point, fair enough there. We can agree to disagree on that one. *chuckle*
Again, I appreciate the answers, and I look forward to reading the book once it hits stores. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 17:13:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Thank you very much Paul, I really do appreciate the candor. :)
You're welcome, Shemmy. For me, it's passionate fans like you who make writing shared world fiction fun (and that is not sarcasm).
Paul |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 17:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
You're welcome, Shemmy. For me, it's passionate fans like you who make writing shared world fiction fun (and that is not sarcasm).
Paul
The above quote is one of the nicest statements I've heard from an author. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 19:00:52
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| I didn't read it cause I don't like spoilers, is it Chapter 1 or what? |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 19:06:06
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Very interesting chapter. I had hopes that with Mr. Kemp as the author, the series' finale would return to the quality level of the first three books, and that seems to be the case.
I noted one or two of the discrepancies Shemeska remarked on, though I missed most that he pointed out. However, I truly apprecipate that Mr. Kemp took the time to answer those concerns. It's this wonderful interaction between fans and authors, interaction that is possible thanks to the Internet and Candlekeep, that makes me remain a FR fan. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 19:39:09
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I didn't read it cause I don't like spoilers, is it Chapter 1 or what?
Yes, it says "Chapter One" at the start of the sample. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 15:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Thank you very much Paul, I really do appreciate the candor. :)
On the name similarities etc: your intention there does make sense. And even if I'd have handled it differently, the intentions and reasons you had do help. I can respect how you went about it and appreciate the nod to the material.
On the 'loths: Alright, that makes sense. The petitioner thing did come out in Planescape, but than again around 98% of the detail on them as a race came out in PS as well. If I had to guess about why it wasn't mentioned in PGtF I'd hazard that it was either an oversight, or since 'loths weren't in the first 3e MM, they tend to get overlooked in a lot of instances. Again I'd have done it differently, but I can respect how you went about it given your reasoning here.
And on the last point, fair enough there. We can agree to disagree on that one. *chuckle*
Again, I appreciate the answers, and I look forward to reading the book once it hits stores.
As do I.
Paul, I did not truly appreciate how the changes in the cosmology would affect the writing of FR novels that had heavy influence on planar themes.
You're conceptual basis for the generation of the yugoloths is particularly interesting, even if it deviates from what some would still consider to be the norm. But your explanation more than puts to rest any further objections I may have had on the issue. Interestingly, I'd like to know how you originally came up with such a notion for the 'loths?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 26 Mar 2005 15:51:32 |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 21:14:44
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| Just remembered something... This isn't the first time that a FR god or goddess convinces a powerful fiend to provide some sort of service through a stick-and-carrot approach. Lolth herself did the same in Siege of Darkness, with the balor Errtu. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 21:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Just remembered something... This isn't the first time that a FR god or goddess convinces a powerful fiend to provide some sort of service through a stick-and-carrot approach. Lolth herself did the same in Siege of Darkness, with the balor Errtu.
Didn't she also charm Malar in the Evermeet novel?
Like mother like... |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 22:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Just remembered something... This isn't the first time that a FR god or goddess convinces a powerful fiend to provide some sort of service through a stick-and-carrot approach. Lolth herself did the same in Siege of Darkness, with the balor Errtu.
Didn't she also charm Malar in the Evermeet novel?
Like mother like...
In the case of Malar, IIRC, she cajoled, not threatened. Malar is a god himself, after all, not some lowly balor or ultraloth.
Still, it does point out the manipulative natures of Lolth and her son. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 04:21:48
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| Alright! Thanks, Mr. Kemp! Of course, I'm sure this is just another marketing ploy to pry my money from my wallet. Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 11:17:28
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Dear Mr. Kemp, I love the first chapter of Ressurection. I especially appreciate all the yugoloth and Blood Rift info as I am particularly enamored of the new FR cosmology and am obsessed with sussing out how it all works and fits together.
As you seem to be the expert on the Blood Rift, I do have a question for you that has been bugging me for a very long time. In your chapter you mention the plane is crawling with larvae. In the PGtF it does say that Blood Rift petitioners appear as those in the Barrens (larvae). But I am wondering what petitioners? Where do they come from?
Since all souls go to the Fugue Plane when they die, and are only transported from there to divine realms by their gods, how are any petitioners making it to the Blood Rift when there are no divine realms or gods on this plane to bring them? |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 11:18:32
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I could see a few souls that had made contracts with yugoloths during their lifetimes being collected by the 'loths from the Fugue Plane upon their death. Maybe the 'loths raid the Fugue Plane like the demons or trick souls like the devils. But this doesn't seem to account for all the larvae you describe.
I am wondering if there is some other mechanism that directs souls or petitioners to the plane (in the absence of divine patrons) that would explain the numbers of larvae that appear to be found there. |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 15:57:04
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Gray,
I think you may be considering the issue from too narrow a perspective. Consider the fact that there are numerous, perhaps infinite, parallel Prime Material Planes and that the Blood Rift and other aligned planes touch them all. On many, or perhaps most of those alternate Prime Planes, the concept of "purgatory" in the Fugue Plane,the Wall of the Faithless, and Kelemvor's role relating thereto will have no relevance. Heck, consider the fact that even on Toril those ideas of the afterlife have currency almost exclusively on the region of Toril known as Faerun (as opposed to the other areas of the planet, the inhabitants of which have their own view of the gods, the afterlife, the fate of souls, etc.)
Now, does it make sense that the doctrine associated with a Faerunian view of the afterlife would extend to those alternate Material Planes and other regions of Faerun, all of which are populated by inhabitants with different beliefs about the fate of souls? The answer, of course, is that it makes sense only if you believe that the doctrine is right (in the objective sense) and that the other Primes and other areas of Faerun are bound by it even if the inhabitants believe something different. But if, on the other hand, you think the Faerunian view of the afterlife and its associated concepts are not binding on those alternate Primes and other areas of Faerun, then the fate of the souls in those places is not the same as the fate of the souls of Faerunians.
Obviously, I espouse something akin to the later explanation. It is, therefore, no leap to imagine a nearly infinite pool of petitioners who find their way/are cast into the Blood Rift from alternate Primes or other areas of Toril.
Note too that all of this suggests some interesting ideas about the power of collective belief and its ability to affect reality. I have toyed with that idea a bit in some of my books.
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Edited by - PaulSKemp on 27 Mar 2005 16:08:30 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 23:30:01
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Thank you for your answer Paul, I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts. And let me say that you have completely sold me on the book and I can't wait to read it. I enjoyed what I have read so far immensely and I hope there are many more interesting yugoloth and Blood Rift tidbits inside that I can mine for FR planar lore.
Although, I am still hung up on the larva thing and I hope you will bear with me while I try to explore this question.
From your response I gather you are saying that the larvae in the Blood Rift do not tend to come from Faerun at all, rather that they are mostly from other prime material planes? From an aesthetic sense this troubles me because if true then that means there is a whole plane within the cosmology that is not inhabited by souls from from Faerun, a plane that draws its population from outsided the universe.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 23:31:45
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You say to consider the fact that there are numerous parallel material planes that the Blood Rift touches upon. And I am trying to wrap my brain around that. I know the Great Wheel used to work that way. But I was under the impression from the FRCS and the PGtF that the FR cosmology did not touch on alternate primes, didn't even necessarily link to other continents on Toril. I guess I am having difficulty reconciling your answer with the PGtF which indicates that other continents of Faerun have their own cosmologies that are linked to those lands by their own separate astral planes.
I have been working on the assumption that the Blood Rift was a uniquely Faerunian plane and that it touched on no other prime material planes--although I had wondered if it touches on other planets within Realmspace (however many planets there may be now in 3E Realmspace).
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 23:33:42
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So what I am asking is if in your conception the Blood Rift touches on other prime material planes because of it's unique nature within the FR cosmology that allows it to become coterminous with other planes from time to time--that is, are you saying it can become coterminous with planes outside the cosmology? Or are you saying that all the planes of the FR cosmology touch upon other alternate material planes, primes beyond the crystal sphere of Realmspace?
Thanks for bearing with me if I seem to be obsessing about a trivial point, but the whole larvae in the Blood Rift thing has been bugging me for a very, very long time. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 01:16:28
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| Well this basically defeated the purpose of FR's planes being seperate and different from those of the other Primes. :) YAY! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Resurrection (WotSQ VI) Sample Chapter
