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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 00:06:47
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I am just curious to see what peoples' opinion's are when it comes to killing off iconic characters in your campaigns?
For example. Have you or your PC parties ever killed one of the Chosen, a Lord of Waterdeep, a famous Harper (such as Bran Scorlsun), or a "bad guy" like Manshoon?
I usually try not to let this happen when I DM because I all of my campaigns build on each other and I try not to alter the "real" realms. So if I kill off Elminster (example only, don't jump down my throat) and in a future sourcebook something realms changing happens because of him than "my realms" turn into a sort of "homebrew" world.
The main reason I ask is that there is a chance of the party I am currently DMing to try to assassinate/kill Caledni (sp?), the royal wizard of Cormyr. She is not nearly as powerful as the Chosen or other iconic characters and is defnitely "kill-able" if that is a high level parties goal. (the party members are members of the Zhentarim). Any thoughts? Should I let this happen? I almost feel like not letting it happen would be rail-roading or making the game not fun for the players but on the other hand next time I run a campaign there won't be a Caledni, and if she has future impact in a sourcebook/novel then I'm screwed.
I look forward to your opinions.
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 03:03:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
The main reason I ask is that there is a chance of the party I am currently DMing to try to assassinate/kill Caledni (sp?)....
Who?  
Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much - she doesn't exist in my FR campaigns. |
Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 03:12:09
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Well of course you should let them "try", but it should be almost impossible for them to succeed. And if they do succeed, she and the entire realm will be awfully mad after her resurrection.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 04:04:16
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| Chosen of Bane, if you don't want Caladnei to be killed by your PCs, just equip her with more powerful magics and items. After all, as the Royal Magician of Cormyr she has access to pratically everything in the vaults and armoury of Cormyr. You could also place large contingents of veteran Purple Dragons with her at all times to discourage your PCs in making such an assassination attempt. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 04:30:12
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| I just want to point out that I agree with something Faraer once said: the "iconic" status of a character has more to do with the character's prominence in product marketing than anything else. "Iconic" is just a label, and not a very meaningful one. There are many characters who play important roles, and killing one of them (even if they aren't "iconic") would still affect the Realms and have ramifications. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 04:45:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
The main reason I ask is that there is a chance of the party I am currently DMing to try to assassinate/kill Caledni (sp?), the royal wizard of Cormyr. She is not nearly as powerful as the Chosen or other iconic characters and is defnitely "kill-able" if that is a high level parties goal. (the party members are members of the Zhentarim). Any thoughts? Should I let this happen? I almost feel like not letting it happen would be rail-roading or making the game not fun for the players but on the other hand next time I run a campaign there won't be a Caledni, and if she has future impact in a sourcebook/novel then I'm screwed.
I look forward to your opinions.
What exactly is their reason for wanting her dead? Even if they are Zhentarim, they must still have brains. If they kill her, their life expectancy will be very short. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 04:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
The main reason I ask is that there is a chance of the party I am currently DMing to try to assassinate/kill Caledni (sp?), the royal wizard of Cormyr. She is not nearly as powerful as the Chosen or other iconic characters and is defnitely "kill-able" if that is a high level parties goal. (the party members are members of the Zhentarim). Any thoughts? Should I let this happen? I almost feel like not letting it happen would be rail-roading or making the game not fun for the players but on the other hand next time I run a campaign there won't be a Caledni, and if she has future impact in a sourcebook/novel then I'm screwed.
I look forward to your opinions.
What exactly is their reason for wanting her dead? Even if they are Zhentarim, they must still have brains. If they kill her, their life expectancy will be very short.
Unless they are your typical, bumbling, single-digit IQ Zhentarim goonies.
And yes, I am all in favor of making intelligent villains who plan wisely and don't do things that will come back and bite their tails. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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EvilKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 14:29:01
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Let them try.
But there are always obstacles that would be more interesting than just an assassination. Is there a mole or turncoat in the Zhentarium that knows their plan? It would be pretty interesting if the elite in cormyr knew thay were coming and the eventual fallout in the Zhentarium (mole hunt? The group itself being suspect?).
EvilKnight |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 15:40:28
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I've never had any players kill off an iconic npc, but as the DM I once had a number (most) of the Knights of Myth Drannor perish in a titanic battle with the Cult of Tiamat. This was for drammatic effect, so it was known that the events taking place wouldn't work out all and dandy just becasue certain features of the world are "supposed to be" set in stone.
In my campaign Tristan Kendrick is also dead, but once again this was not by a players hand, but part of the plot. |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
Edited by - Beowulf on 09 Mar 2005 15:41:42 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 16:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
What exactly is their reason for wanting her dead? Even if they are Zhentarim, they must still have brains. If they kill her, their life expectancy will be very short.
They feel that with Azoun V only being a child and if they kill the Royal Wizard it could potentially throw Cormyr into a state of choas with the Nobility at each others throats about the "ableness" of the monarchy.
They feel that any chance they can get to strike a blow at Cormyr, the Harpers, or Shadowdale is a good blow to take. And currently they feel Cormyr is the most vulnerable.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well of course you should let them "try", but it should be almost impossible for them to succeed. And if they do succeed, she and the entire realm will be awfully mad after her resurrection.
I'm not so sure of this (the resurrection part, obviously people will be ticked off). I have mixed feelings about her being resurrected. They seldom resurrect "good" characters in the Novels. Look no farther than the two members of the Obarskyr's who have died [fairly] recently.
But your point is taken. People (whether it be the royal wizard or others) would be very upset and look to settle the score.
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Chosen of Bane, if you don't want Caladnei to be killed by your PCs, just equip her with more powerful magics and items. After all, as the Royal Magician of Cormyr she has access to pratically everything in the vaults and armoury of Cormyr. You could also place large contingents of veteran Purple Dragons with her at all times to discourage your PCs in making such an assassination attempt.
I'm not sure about it, that's why I sparked this discussion. In my opinion she is not an uber-significant NPC like a Chosen of Mystra and could be replaced. My biggest objection is introducing iconic characters into a game and forever changing the landscape of "my" realms games. I have never used an iconic character in game (except for in conversation such as; "he's mightier than Elminster himself") and I wanted to see other peoples opinions and shared experiences with this type of event. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 19:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
They feel that with Azoun V only being a child and if they kill the Royal Wizard it could potentially throw Cormyr into a state of choas with the Nobility at each others throats about the "ableness" of the monarchy.
And see I would think that such an assassination would focus much of the nation's might into dealing with those responsible. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 20:02:40
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Don't take this the wrong way, but this just reminds me of a party that is looking through the Realms NPCs like some people do the monster manual, going . . . yeah, we could take that, lets kill it.
Calednei has a lot of potential, but she is not as powerful as the Chosen, or even Vangerdahast for example. But think of the position as well as the character . . . she is the head of the War Wizards . . . even if they succeed, that a lot of heat to generate. She should also have a lot of low level War Wizards ready to defender her, a lot of high level ones to avenger her, and a lot of magic items and "contingency" items from the royal treasury.
I would argue that a simple raise dead would not work on Tanalasta due to her body's state of damage, and there may not have been any clerics left in the country that could do a resurrection. Azoun was tired and an older man, so I doubt he would WANT to come back if raised (remember he as seen his glories and he has seen the rest prepared for him, so maybe he is content to just leave well enough alone rather than get, what, 10 more years or so)
You mention that good characters are rarely resurected in the books, but I would also point out that few are killed simply to show that the main characters are more powerful then they are either. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 20:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I would argue that a simple raise dead would not work on Tanalasta due to her body's state of damage, and there may not have been any clerics left in the country that could do a resurrection. Azoun was tired and an older man, so I doubt he would WANT to come back if raised (remember he as seen his glories and he has seen the rest prepared for him, so maybe he is content to just leave well enough alone rather than get, what, 10 more years or so)
I believe it has been mentioned that both had strict wishes not to be raised. |
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Octa
Learned Scribe
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 21:12:45
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1, I usually only kill them off like someone said before as a plot device.
2, If there is a good reason for a confrontation, then go for it, but totally throw the stats in the FRCS out the window, make her at least 4 levels higher than the highest level PC and give her 150% of the NPC equipment cost or maybe just equip her like a PC. Min-Max her to death and cheat a little by knowing your parties weaknesses (how many adventuring parties has she faced down in her time-plenty). Also play her smart, she should always have war wizards and purple dragons at ready to take out the PCs.
3, make sure your players know that Alusair and Vangey will find out who killed her, as will many other important Realms NPCs and they will be on the hunt for them for the rest of their short, and harried existences, One doesn't assasinate people like that and make an easy get away, they just have too many resources. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 22:05:58
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I'd like to say what Rinonalyrna said I said again. 'Iconic' is not a characteristic of characters in the Realms.quote:
In my opinion she is not an uber-significant NPC like a Chosen of Mystra and could be replaced.
The Chosen are not 'uber-significant', they can and have been replaced as any office-holder can -- as instruments of Mystra's will they're disposable vessels. If you like a character so much that the Realms is not the Realms without them, by all means make sure they don't die, unless -- again, for you -- that hurts believability more.
But we don't know why your characters are interested in killing Caladnei, which makes it hard to discuss that particular case.
Of course, because of the way Wizards presents them, it's possible that players may see 'iconic characters' as different from non-'iconic' characters. If so, it's worth deliberately disabusing them of this idea. Don't let players assume they've heard of characters who are novel stars, and don't let them treat non-'iconic' characters with less respect. I really think it's an important trait of the Realms that characters are not divided into first- and second-class.
Caladnei is much harder to get at than her statblock indicates, because of her guards, allies (from the people of Corymr to everyone who doesn't want an unstable Cormyr), and the largely undocumented hanging magics protecting the holder of her office. Equally, really high-level adventuring bands (15th-level and up) are rare, and they're capable of great deeds. But look at all the mighty interests in Sembia and Zhentil Keep who want Caladnei dead, and realize that it's not plausible that anyone could get at her without careful planning and preparation. Do the PCs really want to do this enough to spend that care? Can they imagine what the consequences would be? |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 23:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Don't take this the wrong way, but this just reminds me of a party that is looking through the Realms NPCs like some people do the monster manual, going . . . yeah, we could take that, lets kill it.
No offense taken. But really they're not like that. They simply think that the Royal Wizard is the "real authority" in Cormyr, especially now that the king is a child. Actually, only one of the PC's is really a realms junkie like the rest of us and most of the players don't even realize she is statted in the FRCS (not that I would dream of using those stats!). As a matter of fact, one Player has read the Drizzt novels and that's it, and one player has every novel except last mythal (the above mentioned realms junkie).
As I have mentioned numerous times I usually don't use iconic or novel characters in this realm but the way this came up was so "innocent". The players were thinking about how they could strike a blow that will rock Cormyr. Most of them (all but one) did not even know who Calednei was out of game. There PC's are simply exploring options at crippling Cormyr.
I guess what I will do is try to dissuade them from doing so with "in-game" logic. If they decide to go through with it and IF they succeed than perhaps it will be there last mistake and we would start over a new campaign with a new Royal Wizard. Sort of like the evil PC's way of leaving their mark on the realms. I'm not huge on epic levels anyway, I'd just assume start over from scratch.
Thanks for all the input. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 00:14:17
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Some of us have read one too many of those threads where people proclaim that they're going to -- or, more bizarrely, that TSR/WotC should -- 'kill off' some NPC because they don't like them.
Still, some of my feedback still applies. I would be surprised if people foolish enough to misidentify Caladnei as the 'real authority' in Cormyr could get through the apparatus set up to protect her -- including Harpers, as seen in Elminster's Daughter. So if they go through with this, your job is to have them fail as plausibly as possible. |
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Sigonan
Acolyte
Greece
19 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 09:36:06
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Speaking of a bite on their tails (or right on their behinds...)!
How about a high ranking Zhent finding out about their plan? Would she/he allow it?? Because, being an evil organization, requires sharp minds that would know:killing a target that is popular will definitely risk the disclosure of the assassins' identity. And even if they make it, imagine the enmity of Cormyr and the ressurected wizard!
As for killing the PCs by an iconic NPC it should be done only when your players do something really stupid (eg. they try to assassinate the Royal Wizard and do not plan carefully to thelast detail etc.) |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 13:37:28
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Look, this thread really took a spin that I wasn't looking for (probably my fault, whatever). The main focus of my point was what people thought about having an iconic character killed off in your game but not in the "official realms". I was looking for if others do it, whether it's killed by a PC group or an NPC as a plot device. Some answered that question, I thank all that have.
The focus of this post was not how to kill the Royal Wizard of Cormyr or why it is ridiculous to try. I am not a novice immature gamer that thinks I'm going to lure Elminster into a anti-magic field with a trail of bread crumbs. I realize pulling off an assassination of this magnitude (Caladnei) would be extremely difficult and need a well thought out plan. That is a given. However, it is possible, if you remember the Cormyr novel Azoun came pretty darn close to being asssassinated so nobody is untouchable.
However, like I said. My focus was not to post on how difficult it should be. The real focus was altering the realms [drastically?]. I was looking for people who have experience in doing this sort of thing and trouble they have encountered in doing so. Such as, has anybody had Evereska destroyed by war in game only to make the events of Return of the Archwizards and the Last Mythal unusable in your setting?
Has anybody killed Fzoul before the return of Bane and therefor changed the current groundwork of the Zhentarim in your games?
Did anyone have Obould Many Arrows killed before he united an army in the north (recent Salvatore series)?
Get my point now? I'm looking for thoughts on killing of characters that could have big impact on official Realms events. Has anybody done this? Do you try to avoid it at all costs? What are some problems that you have run into when killing iconic characters? Does it feel generic/cheesey to implant one of your NPC's into a prominent role that is filled with an iconic character? Those are the sort of answers I'm looking for.
I apologize in advance if this post seems annoyed but I know have read the posts (especially on the Wizards boards) that say, "I have a fool proof plan to kill all the chosen...". Then they rattle off ridiculous plans that we can find a loophole in not too mention a wizard that has been alive for thousands of years. This was not meant to be one of those threads. I don't care how difficult it would be to kill the Royal Wizard. If my PC's want to try than that is their problem.
Thanks.
-Edited for improper use of there & their (one of those age old errors  ) |
Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 16 Mar 2005 18:20:37 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 17:28:16
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Near the end of my current (Evil PCs) campain, they will be asked to find the "real" Khelben (son of the Masked Lady) in Oerth and destroy him (beyond "mortal magic" resurection).
I'm already thinking about it and what will happen after, I want it to be true to the Realms and the reaction that will follow from Khelben "the elder" is probably the hardest thing to set up.
Their way to not be "KOS" by Khelben will probably turn around a trap based on the "Crown of Horn" and maybe doing much hurt to Laeral Silverhand or something like it.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 16 Mar 2005 17:32:33 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 03:02:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Look, this thread really took a spin that I wasn't looking for (probably my fault, whatever). The main focus of my point was what people thought about having an iconic character killed off in your game but not in the "official realms".
The problem is that you are still begging the question of how iconic characters are defined, and whether or not that is important. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 03:49:30
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It really depends on the character that gets killed...
Killing Drizzt Do'Urden, for example, wouldn't have much impact on the Realms. Sure, his friends would be sad, Mithril Hall would be in mourning, there would be parties in Menzoberranzan, etc... But beyond that, it would have little impact on the Realms.
Now, if someone more politically prominent was killed... Say, Fzoul Chembryl. The Zhentarim would briefly be thrown into turmoil, as would the Church of Bane. Manshoon would likely step back up to the plate and take over. He'd likely capitalize on the power struggle in the Church that would have ensued, and play various factions against each other. Things would be rough in the Keep for a while... Also, I think he'd be quick to neutralize Lord Orgauth -- after all, he and Fzoul were responsible for the death of the last pre-Manshoon Wars Manshoon, and who really wants a pit fiend running around, anyway?
Manshoon would likely continue insinuating Zhents into various places, and subtly steering things toward his goals... Because of his meddling, the Church of Bane would be weakened, so as not to threaten his power base. And so on...
Like I say, it depends on who gets offed. Me, I'd try to avoid any iconic characters being offed. But then again, I'd not use them in a campaign except as background NPCs -- people who either offer a bit of help or hire the PCs for a job, and that's it. I'm of the opinion that the campaign should be about the PCs, not the NPCs. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 14:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The problem is that you are still begging the question of how iconic characters are defined, and whether or not that is important.
I totally get what you are saying. For the purposes of this post I am defining "iconic" as somebody who plays a role in an official novel or is detailed in sourcebooks (aka- any NPC not created by me). I do not try to make "iconic" characters any more important than my homemade NPC's. The main reason for asking this line of questioning is future Realms cannon info. I am certain that the death of one of my NPC's will not effect future cannon events. However, killing of a Chosen or some similar character will alter how cannon events take place. If things like this happen often than at what point does it stop being the realms and become a Homebrew world based off the realms?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It really depends on the character that gets killed...
Good point. I also try to not include novel characters in my games. However, when the PC's are high level and seek them out you kind of have to. Especially when it's a particular "office" the PC's want to approach and not a specific NPC. For example, when the party desires an audience with a certain King or Lord who has been described in a book that it is tough not to work that character into your games.
Thanks for the input |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 17:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
For example, when the party desires an audience with a certain King or Lord who has been described in a book that it is tough not to work that character into your games.
I didn't realize Kings/Lords gave into the requests of adventurers so easily. What exactly did the party do that had the King/Lord you are describing wishing to give an audience? |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 17:24:52
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I didn't realize Kings/Lords gave into the requests of adventurers so easily. What exactly did the party do that had the King/Lord you are describing wishing to give an audience?
I realize Kings don't normally grant audiences with adventureres.
This didn't happen in my game. I was merely using an example of when the players can steer the DM into using novel/sourcebook NPC's. Sorry I couldn't come up with a better example.
The example that is bound to happen eventually in my game is a "meeting" with the Royal Wizard of Cormyr. I didn't want to bring that one up again because I didn't want to start the entire thread over again.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 18:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I realize Kings don't normally grant audiences with adventureres.
This didn't happen in my game. I was merely using an example of when the players can steer the DM into using novel/sourcebook NPC's.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:11:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I totally get what you are saying. For the purposes of this post I am defining "iconic" as somebody who plays a role in an official novel or is detailed in sourcebooks (aka- any NPC not created by me).
All right, I see what you mean now. Thank you for the clarification.
quote:
I do not try to make "iconic" characters any more important than my homemade NPC's. The main reason for asking this line of questioning is future Realms cannon info. I am certain that the death of one of my NPC's will not effect future cannon events. However, killing of a Chosen or some similar character will alter how cannon events take place. If things like this happen often than at what point does it stop being the realms and become a Homebrew world based off the realms?
That's an excellent question, and one that I wonder about myself. The simplest answer, though, is that you never can know whether or not an "iconic" NPC will play an important role in a future novel, series, or sourcebook, so step carefully if you are concerned about messing up what is considered "canon". You may decide not to kill off any "official" NPC at all, just to be on the safe side. As I see it, what matters is how important it is to you to preserve what is considered "official". :) A lot of forum-goers, however, have mentioned that their version of the Realms is quite different from the official one, and yet they still seem to have a lot of fun. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Mar 2005 03:12:06 |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 14:58:53
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I don't kill off iconic characters at the gaming table because I read the books, and my players read the books, and if, say, Storm dies in one of my games, and she appears in a future novel, my game is immediatley separated from the ongoing, living, breathing world of FR, and I can't have that.
I do, however, have several NPCs that are relatively on par with the iconic Realms personalities (a few arch wizards, bladesingers, and other epic-level NPCs who, in some cases, were once PCs). I only kill one off when it's dramatic to do so, but when that happens, the party cleric will just cast true ressurection on that slain NPC. Now, I might say, "That NPC doesn't want to be raised," but that isn't very logical in the minds of the PCs, because who wouldn't want to keep earning experience and whatnot? My players would definitely give me that cross-eyed look, as if to say, "OK, DM, you're forcing things here, and it doesn't make sense." For that reason also, I try to steer clear of slaying iconic characters. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 01:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I only kill one off when it's dramatic to do so, but when that happens, the party cleric will just cast true ressurection on that slain NPC. Now, I might say, "That NPC doesn't want to be raised," but that isn't very logical in the minds of the PCs, because who wouldn't want to keep earning experience and whatnot? My players would definitely give me that cross-eyed look, as if to say, "OK, DM, you're forcing things here, and it doesn't make sense." For that reason also, I try to steer clear of slaying iconic characters.
Interesting. The clerics in our games will only resurrect followers of their deity or one closely allied to their deity (like a follower of Torm ressurecting a follower of Tyr).
You don't need to allow their god to grant ressurection to non-believers. I feel that divine casting should not be like a wizards spell book. Just because the character has it on his list does not mean the god will want him to cast it on just anybody.
Also, I'm curious. Why would it be odd for a dead character to not want to come back? If that person is now "living" in the plane of their deity and at peace, why would they want to come back to Toril and deal with the crap that goes along with it? I don't think you would be forcing things at all to have a character want to stay dead. It happens often in my campaigns by PC's and NPC's alike. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 06:58:47
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I see your point. The cleric is a cleric of Mystra, and the NPCs and PCs who typically get ressurected are followers of either Mystra or Correlon, so I think it's understood that there's a connection there. I don't see any reason to create conflict concerning clashing dieties. The party barbarian worships Tempus, but he's also a Champion of Gwynharwyf, and being a champion of a powerful Eladrin, I can argue a connection to both Mystra and Corellon. Now, please understand that it's not like these characters are being ressurected during each game. The cleric in question may have cast true ressurection twice, maybe three times ever.
Concerning staying dead, I can't imagine a PC wanting to stay dead, unless he/she wanted to make another character. I understand the ideas behind not raising iconic characters like Azoun, both because maybe he should stay dead to move the plot along, and also because casting ressurection on him would seem like a gamer's decision, not a writer's decision, and it would be, well, silly to do so. But for a player character, it's not the same. My players wouldn't role play and say, "Yeah, my character would probably want to stay dead. I mean, he's in Heaven now, and things MUST be better there. I'll make a new character." Though it might be good role playing on some level, it's plain silly when that player wants to keep playing that character and true ressurection is available. I can't force PCs to stay dead because my players wouldn't like that. I'd rather not force NPCs to remain dead because, well, those particular NPCs would prefer to be ressurected. Trust me, they would.  |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 06:54:39
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I try to avoid setting up iconic NPCs against the players. They're typically the background movers and shakers. I've only had the players run into one NPC during their games of any note, and that was a brief encounter with The Simbul while they were adventuring in Aglarond. It was in a more social setting with elves, but thankfully, they didn't attack her or her retinue, because I wouldn't have held back at all. Heh. 
Some things and NPCs, if encountered and assaulted, prove with amazing speed and lethality why they are who or what they are. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Killing Iconic characters in your games?
