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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 15:30:39
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I was flipping through the pages of Lords of Darkness yesterday, and it struck me that several of the major evil power groups (and one minor one) have been featured in trilogies since the beginning of 3e. The Cult of the Dragon is currently having its day in the sun in Richard Byers' Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy. The shades were featured in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. The drow have the six-volume War of the Spider Queen series. And, finally, the daemonfey are the main antagonists of Richard Baker's Lost Mythal trilogy.
When I got to the Zhentarim section, I found myself wishing that they, too, would be the main antagonists of a novel series. Certainly, IMHO, they deserve to enjoy some success, having been made into incompetent buffoons in 2e because of the accursed TSR Code of Ethics. Now they're stronger than ever, and linked to the church of a powerful evil god. I think it's about they were portrayed as the dangerous villains I know they can be, especially as they finally have competent leadership. Maybe they could try to take over the whole of the Moonsea.
So... Is there anyone else who would like to see more of the Zhentarim?
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 15:34:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
So... Is there anyone else who would like to see more of the Zhentarim?
Not really. I never have found the group that interesting.
Didn't they get a brief cameo in the first novel for The Year of Rogue Dragons series? Plus, perhaps Ed Greenwood's first novel about the KOMD will feature the Zhentarim. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 16:17:33
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I would absolutely love to see series of novels involving the Zhentarim. I am currently DMing a campaign where the PC's are members of the Black Network so in preparation I read everything I could find about the Zhents. There are a few books out there but not what I'm craving (and what I assume the original poster is craving)
-Zhentarim is the chief antagonist in the Shandril Saga but it's the "Old School" Zhentarim lead by Manshoon. They have a much different feel now in my opinion and I almost felt like the Zhent info in that series is outdated.
-The Zhents do have a cameo in "The Rage" and I very much like their mannerisms/tactics in that book but they go into very little detail about them.
-Alabastor Staff mentions the Zhentarim a lot but it really isn't about them. It's more about a rogue with affiliations with a guild, a merchant house, and the church of tiamat. Not nearly enough Zhent info to be considered a Zhentarim Novel.
-Thornhold indeed has the Zhentarim as the chief antagonist but unfortunately (for me) it is the Cyricist Zhents from Darkhold. Not nearly as focused on the control of trade as the Banite Zhents from Zhentil Keep.
I would love to see a novel focused on the political dealings of Fzoul. I know I'm getting greedy but I don't want them to be the antagonists, I would love for the Banite Zhents to be the protagonists and the Darkhold Zhents the Antagonists, a little Black Network "Civil War" which seems to be brewing.
I absolutely think that the Zhentarim is overused in the cameo or standard goon type setting but not used enough in their political power.
I am however biased since Fzoul is my favorite Realms character ever. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 16:55:52
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I would like to see Fzoul and Semmemon in action again sometimes, the political intrigue's always been interesting. Perhaps as novel antagonists...plus, the Zhents seem to get the short end of the stick most often.
Offhand, how do you pronounce 'Fzoul Chembryl?' |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 17:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
I would like to see Fzoul and Semmemon in action again sometimes, the political intrigue's always been interesting. Perhaps as novel antagonists...
Murray Leeder mentioned in this thread about one of the characters being featured in an upcoming novel. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 17:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Offhand, how do you pronounce 'Fzoul Chembryl?'
It's Fzz-OOL CHEMM-bril according to the Old Grey Box, the 1st campaign box set. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 20:34:30
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| Alright, comforting to know I was close... (Prounced it "F-izz-owl" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 23:00:02
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| I think the Zhents are over-played as villains... I'd love to see more of Manshoon and Fzoul, but not the rest of the Black Network. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 00:33:00
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| I agree Wooly.I think as a group they have been played out.Now as individuals.I would love to see novels concerning Fzoul and or Mansoon. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 01:00:06
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| Fzoul's ooooone busy guy....Priest, commander, shishkebab a la Cyric, Avatar, servant of Cyric, traitor and conspirator, worshipper of Mask for five seconds, Worshipper of Xvim, Banite, Chosen... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 01:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Fzoul's ooooone busy guy....Priest, commander, shishkebab a la Cyric, Avatar, servant of Cyric, traitor and conspirator, worshipper of Mask for five seconds, Worshipper of Xvim, Banite, Chosen...
The Martha Stewart of his day. He does everything. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 02:02:48
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Ed of the Greenwood tells me that readers of THE BEST OF THE REALMS Volume 2: The Stories of Ed Greenwood (coming in June or July) will enjoy an interesting (though short) cameo by Fzoul, and that those who read an early 2006 “Realms of” anthology will learn “a little bombshell” regarding Manshoon’s current activities.
And no, it’s NOT what was in last year’s Spin A Yarn tale . . .
love to all,
THO
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 02:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
I agree Wooly.I think as a group they have been played out.Now as individuals.I would love to see novels concerning Fzoul and or Mansoon.
How about a novel about Fzoul and Manshoons lives
Couple of ideas for the title: Fzoul the making of a Tyrant or I Tyrant |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 02:53:37
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Fzoul: And now we see how with the right bit of basting, we can make a LOVELY turkey dinner to honor the Black Lord Bane....now, we garnish our meal with the blood of a random elf!
Bane:...God, I love Thanksgiving...
Why do I find the idea of a Fzoul/Martha comparison humorous? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 03:11:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Fzoul's ooooone busy guy....Priest, commander, shishkebab a la Cyric, Avatar, servant of Cyric, traitor and conspirator, worshipper of Mask for five seconds, Worshipper of Xvim, Banite, Chosen...
The Martha Stewart of his day. He does everything.
Except he wouldn't get sent to prison for insider trading. As a servant of an evil deity, he'd more likely get a thumbs-up for it. 
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed of the Greenwood tells me that readers of THE BEST OF THE REALMS Volume 2: The Stories of Ed Greenwood (coming in June or July) will enjoy an interesting (though short) cameo by Fzoul, and that those who read an early 2006 “Realms of” anthology will learn “a little bombshell” regarding Manshoon’s current activities.
And no, it’s NOT what was in last year’s Spin A Yarn tale . . .
love to all,
THO
Ooh, interesting! Thanks for the tease, my Lady Hooded One!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 04:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Why do I find the idea of a Fzoul/Martha comparison humorous?
Because you can picture him in an apron teaching his apprentices how to bake muffins the correct way. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 05:43:27
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It's the red hair. He reminds you of Ralph from "Happy Days".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 16:13:48
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The Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy may give us our best look at the Zhents yet, from spies in Eveningstar to drawn-out clashes with Shadowdale. Other than that, I think concocting novels specifically to showcase particular groups is a gimmicky and artistically dubious practise, as it was with the Rise of the Archwizards books. The Realms is more organic and variegated than that -- use the Zhents and other known groups when they come up, otherwise the published Realms fiction needs more examples of the smaller and more commonly encountered neutral and evil factions.
As to currently published books, Chosen of Bane, look no further than the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy and Shandril's Saga. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 23:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's the red hair. He reminds you of Ralph from "Happy Days".
-- George Krashos
Does that make Manshoon Potsie or the Fonz? |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 00:52:24
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I've been interested in Zhentarim as major villains(which actually make you fear them as you read) since I read Shadow's Witnesses. The I played BGDA(though it doesn't really seem canon) and Kharn, the Zhent thief really excited me and I liked the way he sort of looked strong and powerful.
After reading the Avatar series, I really was very interested in reading more about the Zhents and I really think that a Zhentarim civil war between the two religions would be a nice story to have.
I hated the way Zhents were always on the losing side in the Avatar series and the Rage. It really made them look weak IMO. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 04:17:11
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| Yes Dargoth,I would like to see a novel on Fzoul's life.I,TYRANT would be a great idea. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 14:28:18
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| If we can't get a series to focus on the Zhentarim as a whole as antagonists, I agree a solo novel about a specific Zhent leader like Fzoul or Manshoon would be great. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 16:47:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
If we can't get a series to focus on the Zhentarim as a whole as antagonists, I agree a solo novel about a specific Zhent leader like Fzoul or Manshoon would be great.
I think that would work a lot better. Focusing on a group of antagonists wouldn't make for as satisfying a read as focusing on a couple of particular individuals in that group would. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 17:15:12
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I myself don't care much about a Zhentarim story, as they usually get screwed over by the Seven Sisters everytime I read about them.
Like Krafus, I would enjoy reading about Fzoul or Manshoon. I mean, if you can have novels featuring an epic character like Elminster, there shouldn't be much of a problem creating a story for these two Zhentarim leaders. In fact, a story about like the religious war between the Cyricists and the Banites would be pretty cool. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 18:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Paec_djinn
I hated the way Zhents were always on the losing side in the Avatar series and the Rage. It really made them look weak IMO.
They are, after all, villains, and if they were victorious in a story, the protagonists would almost certainly be defeated: which would break the basic structure of what a story is -- let alone codes of ethics and standards for content. Further, if the Zhents were ever shown to succeed in their real aims, crushing the northern Dales and setting up their trade route to the west and gaining economic dominance over the northern continent, it would vastly change the setting in a way that should be the remit only of DMs, not the published fiction. |
Edited by - Faraer on 05 Mar 2005 18:55:29 |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 23:43:00
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I see your point Faraer, but changing the geography of the Realms could really add some twist to the ever-changing way the Realms is run--an RSE.
But then again, they could make a series and let the Zhents win--for once--in the first few books and then finally a full coalition drove them back. I don't know.
I still think a civil war between Zhents is a better idea though. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 02:44:47
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| Hmmm... I think the Zhents are winning enough already. It seems that with each new novel, the good guys are getting weaker and weaker. The best example is Evereska. Look at that city; just when they are starting to recover from the phaerrim attacks, they now have a daemonfey invasion on their hands. We all know they gonna win, but at what cost? We need more novels with good guys winning but not exactly with heavy losses. The Zhentarim right now may not be directly involved in the major events in Faerun, but they sure are reaping the profits, especially from The Rage of the Dragons. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 04:05:29
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The Zhents do win, sometimes; it is only through the deliberate effort of heroes that keeps them at bay.
Just because they usually lose in novels doesn't mean they don't have their share of victories. Remember that the novels give a taste of the Realms, but like the sourcebooks they don't show you everything. They are selective rather than exhaustive. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Mar 2005 04:06:23 |
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thekosta
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 18:01:34
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| As for the Zent's I would like to see more of them perhaps an open ended series like the Harpers because there is so much more to them than Manshoon and Fzoul. So many more interesting characters and strongholds that people could explore. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 10:18:31
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Without a doubt!! 
I'm a big fan of the Zhentarim and they feature heavily in my campaign. I'd love to read more about them and have them having some success.
I was glad to read of them in The Rage and thought Richard Lee Byers did a great job in depicting their nature and how they were taking advantage of the situation (I won't go into the particular scene as its definately worth reading firsthand).
As someone mentioned previously here, it would be great if WotC had done a Zhentarim Series, like they had done a Harpers Series.
::adds another item to wish list:: |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 15:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
As someone mentioned previously here, it would be great if WotC had done a Zhentarim Series, like they had done a Harpers Series.
::adds another item to wish list::
Not a chance, what with the damn Code of Ethics that was in place back then.
Nowadays, however... I doubt it'll happen, but should WotC decide to publish Zhentarim-focused novels, at least the Code won't be there. |
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Anyone else would like to see more of the Zhents?
