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HalfTusk
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 00:23:39
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Hello all, We are starting a new campaign, and one of my players has decided to use a shadow weave spellcaster. He is very excited about this and I want him and the others of course to have a good time playing these characters. I have read a lot on the shadow weave and would like to hear some ideas from anyone on here. Like would you make him make a Use Magic Device check to use weave magic, or bar him from all weave magic? Anyway along those lines would be very helpful and I'm sure the discussions will help me very much.
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Edited by - HalfTusk on 01 Feb 2005 00:26:31
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2005 : 19:48:33
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| Non-Shadow Weave users take damage from Shadow Weave items when they use them. I see no reason why the opposite shouldn't be true. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:06:32
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I was searching these boards for some info on the Shadow Weave. I'm going to play a campaign where at a certain point weave-magic is no longer available (for more information see www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4214).
How should I handle any PC wizards/sorcerers? Are they just not able to cast spells? Or do I treat whole Faerun like a wild magic zone? |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
Edited by - Rudar Dimble on 22 Apr 2005 12:09:46 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
I was searching these boards for some info on the Shadow Weave. I'm going to play a campaign where at a certain point weave-magic is no longer available (for more information see www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4214).
How should I handle any PC wizards/sorcerers? Are they just not able to cast spells? Or do I treat whole Faerun like a wild magic zone?
I am not sure there is any canon, however I would think all divine magic would stop working, except perhaps stored magic (spell completion items) and all arcane magic would be wild including any stored magic..
In my opinion the same would apply to the Shadow Weave which can not exist without the weave itself. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:59:11
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If the weave stops working - the shadow weave would still do, normally. I'd treat all of Faerun as a wild magic area, aye :)
To be honest, I DO see a heavy issue with not being able to use normal magic items. Shadow weave items are going to be exceedingly rare, so unless you play in a low-magic campaign anyway, your shadow weave caster would be unable to use 98% of all magical items you are going to encounter.
And that, in a normal D&D campaign, would pretty much make most characters extremely inferior.
Remember, he HAS to spend feats to get that stuff. its not a question of logic here - but of game balance. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 13:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Remember, he HAS to spend feats to get that stuff. its not a question of logic here - but of game balance.
It is true feats must be aquired to use Shadow Weave, however Shadow weave is also more powerful. If weave stops working and Shadow Weave does not I see a greater problem in game balance. Much magic does not come from items and the arguement that most items are Weave as oposed to Shadow Weave would apply when the feats were taken. That the player knew would not be able to use many magic items then. Why should Shadow Weaver become much more better then a Weave user?
Anyway in the end it is the DM's called, just offered my opinion and how I would most likely rule. Perhaps a reason might come along to change my opinion. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 13:29:36
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What is this misconception of the Shadow Weave being more powerful? o.O Of course it has some MINOR advantages - otherwise, noone would waste a feat on it. It HAS to be better in some things. And thats a minor increase in 3 schools, and if you take the other feats, slightly higher DC's for others to detect, dispel or counterspell your magic. And theres the Shadow Adept PrC, but thats not unreasonably strong - its just specialized.
And if the Weave stops working... Thats part of his campaign story. Of COURSE its unbalancing, but then, thats the entire point of doing it in said campaign :P
Again, I fail to see were the shadow weave grants you that much of an advantage unless you plan on travelling through dead and/or wild magic zones all the time. And the point isnt whether the player knows beforehand, the point is that noone would take the feat if he suddenly couldnt use any of the items he would find - because its a huge disadvantage, with nothing to offset it.
Or would YOU agree to not ever use a magic item again just for a meager +1 caster level on necromancy, enchantment and illusion spells? |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 13:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And if the Weave stops working... Thats part of his campaign story. Of COURSE its unbalancing, but then, thats the entire point of doing it in said campaign :P
True, that's why I included a link to the campaign thread. And my players won't be SW-users....I'm sure of that, very sure. It was just a matter of how I should handle normal wizards and sorcerers. It's going to be a wild magic zone all over the place  |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 17:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
In my opinion the same would apply to the Shadow Weave which can not exist without the weave itself.
I concur. The Shadow Weave is the spaces between the strands of the Weave. No strands, no space between them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 20:46:04
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There is a difference between an inactive weave and a non-existing weave though, mind you. Or one that goes crazy.
Dead magic areas, or zones of wild magic, do not influence the Shadow Weave. And what WE are talking about is all of Toril suffering from wild magic. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 18:18:01
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If the weave stopped working then I see no reason why the shadow weave would also stop working.
If something happened to damage, rupture, or remove the weave then I'd assume the shadow weave would stop working.
Seems a bit odd to me though that Shar would essentially rely on Mystra maintaining the weave so that she can maintain hers, you'd think by know she'd have found some way to make her weave independent of Mystras.
slightly OT but I love your sig Darkheyr. HK-47 cracks me up  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 18:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
If the weave stopped working then I see no reason why the shadow weave would also stop working.
Yes this is where opinions vary. The Shadow Weave as (last time I checked) a shadow of the Weave itself that few know about and only Shar has taken advantage of. Turn off the light bulb after dark and the lightbulb and the shadow disappears.
quote:
If something happened to damage, rupture, or remove the weave then I'd assume the shadow weave would stop working.
You mean like dead and wild magic zones? Such disruptions have occured to the Weave however there is enough Shadow Weave from the Wearve to allow SW to work normally. So far (last time I checked) there are no Shadow Weave dead or Wild zones, though with few using the SW they just not have been didcovered. More likely because only one deity is using the SW there has not been the conflicts that caused the dead or wild zones, the Weave after all has been used by deities to fight and sometimes kill a deity (though they appear to be having a hard time staying dead ;-) ))
quote:
Seems a bit odd to me though that Shar would essentially rely on Mystra maintaining the weave so that she can maintain hers, you'd think by know she'd have found some way to make her weave independent of Mystras.
The Weave and Shadow Weave would appear to be part of ceration, just deities have taken over maintanence of them. Keeping them in best working condition. |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
If the weave stopped working then I see no reason why the shadow weave would also stop working.
Yes this is where opinions vary. The Shadow Weave as (last time I checked) a shadow of the Weave itself that few know about and only Shar has taken advantage of. Turn off the light bulb after dark and the lightbulb and the shadow disappears.
But what if you see the Shadow Weave as something that is derived (sp??) from the normal weave? Like Shar held the weave under a scanner, changed some things, and printed out her own version, totally independent from the normal weave.
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Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 22:14:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
But what if you see the Shadow Weave as something that is derived (sp??) from the normal weave? Like Shar held the weave under a scanner, changed some things, and printed out her own version, totally independent from the normal weave.
You certainly can see it this way. I do not know of any canon (official source) that speaks to the issue short of Shar finding magic within the Weave (thus a shadow). Not sure where Shar would get a scaner ;-) , but certainly posible. Deities can do many things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 22:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
If the weave stopped working then I see no reason why the shadow weave would also stop working.
Yes this is where opinions vary. The Shadow Weave as (last time I checked) a shadow of the Weave itself that few know about and only Shar has taken advantage of. Turn off the light bulb after dark and the lightbulb and the shadow disappears.
But what if you see the Shadow Weave as something that is derived (sp??) from the normal weave? Like Shar held the weave under a scanner, changed some things, and printed out her own version, totally independent from the normal weave.
I don't know of anything that supports that viewpoint... The Shadow Weave is described as being the spaces between the strands of the Weave. It's not an independent Weave, it's a shadow of the existing one. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:00:34
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If the weave would cease to exist - the SW would stop working, IMHO. HOWEVER, the FRCS clearly states that damage or limitation to the Weave, for example wild or dead magic areas, do not influence the SW at all.
So Weave inactive -> SW works.
Weave gone -> SW gone. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
If the weave would cease to exist - the SW would stop working, IMHO. HOWEVER, the FRCS clearly states that damage or limitation to the Weave, for example wild or dead magic areas, do not influence the SW at all.
So Weave inactive -> SW works.
Weave gone -> SW gone.
You would be wrong then.
Magic of Faerun page 10, "If Mystra, since she is the Weave, were to die and the Weave collapse, the Shadow Weave would persist."
However, I also have to disagree with the others. Shar's Weave is just a copy of Mystra's but the two are entwined but they are still two seperate and different Weaves. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Apr 2005 23:17:53 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:13:24
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| Even better! Thank ye, fellow Sage! |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Magic of Faerun page 10, "If Mystra, since she is the Weave, were to die and the Weave collapse, the Shadow Weave would persist."
I wonder if another Editor error, but unless superceded it is canon.
quote:
However, I also have to disagree with the others. Shar's Weave is just a copy of Mystra's but the two are entwined but they are still two seperate and different Weaves.
How can they be interwined Weaves be seperate, each would appear to rely on the other?
Of course other questions exist like like why only one deity even found the Shdow Weave in the frist place and deities of higher rank have no idea it even exists?
Things to be worked out by game designes I suspect after Editors allowed a cute idea.
There appears to be a long way to go justifing a secret that only one Deity knew about. *sighs* |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
How can they be interwined Weaves be seperate, each would appear to rely on the other?
Of course other questions exist like like why only one deity even found the Shdow Weave in the frist place and deities of higher rank have no idea it even exists?
Things to be worked out by game designes I suspect after Editors allowed a cute idea.
There appears to be a long way to go justifing a secret that only one Deity knew about. *sighs*
Have you seen some of the Shadow Weave debates we've had on the WOTC boards? We've come up with many angles that the game designers never thought of or at least never fixed. It was one of the many reasons why I chucked the whole Shadow Weave concept for my game. :)
But Magic of Faerun says plainly that the Shadow Weave is a copy of Mystra's but they are also entwined, by being the strands within Mystra's. But if one fails the other would continue to exist. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Apr 2005 23:47:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 04:52:49
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
But Magic of Faerun says plainly that the Shadow Weave is a copy of Mystra's but they are also entwined, by being the strands within Mystra's. But if one fails the other would continue to exist.
How can one exist without the other if they are entwined?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 06:20:10
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| WotC Sovereign glue, says us... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 06:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
WotC Sovereign glue, says us...
Logic often does not apply to a game like D&D. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 06:36:39
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| Yup. WotC Sovereign Glue as I said. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 07:48:59
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Slowly, very slowly, I start to understand the concept of the Shadow Weave  
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At least, I think I am  |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 17:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
But Magic of Faerun says plainly that the Shadow Weave is a copy of Mystra's but they are also entwined, by being the strands within Mystra's. But if one fails the other would continue to exist.
How can one exist without the other if they are entwined?
One of the purplexing questions that WOTC has yet to fully answer. :)
We've also debated on how Shar's divine casters can get thier divine spells because if you think about it. Shar has the Shadow Weave Feat, with that feat even if you are a deity you are blocked from Mystra's Weave. So all of Shar's divine casters have to be getting thier spells from Shar's Shadow Weave since Shar can't answer thier prayers through the Weave. There is one problem with that though and it is this: Those divine casters who don't have that feat, can't receive Shadow Weave spells from Shar.
These two reasons, and many others, are why I tossed the Shadow Weave. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 21:22:34
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Aaah interesting, I remember I had a question as I began reading this. But now I can't remember it any more ...
As for how Shar has kept "her" creation a secret. Well she is the godess of unrevealed secrets after all. If any one would be able to keep a thing like that secret. I think she would be the one Tymora would bet her money on. |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 21:03:32
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| Hmm I rather thought it did the opposite Since it well contradicts many things about the SW in 3ed. I thought it was a good read though, but then again it could have to do with that it contained Imaskari |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
Edited by - Hymn on 02 May 2005 21:05:32 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 19:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Hymn
Hmm I rather thought it did the opposite Since it well contradicts many things about the SW in 3ed. I thought it was a good read though, but then again it could have to do with that it contained Imaskari
It was an enjoyable read, it was just all over the place, just when I got into it, he fled somewhere and started over. I thought Aeron's struggle to tap the weave rather than the shadow weave after he had been exposed to the shadow stone would be a great way for Rudar to describe for his players what it was like to try work magic in the absence of the Weave. Purely fluff, I'm sure Rudar has the crunch worked out. |
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DMs: Shadow weave user in my game
