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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 06:09:16
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Request for info
Which gods died during the Time of Troubles, what where their alignments and where did they die?
So far Ive got the following
Bane: LE, Tantras
Bhaal: LE, Boareskyr Bridge
Mykrul: NE, Waterdeep/Sea of Swords
Ibrandul: CN, Undermountain
Mystra: LN, Northern Cormyr
Torm: LG, Tantras
Also Eric Boyd if your reading this which Demipower of the Orc, Gnoll or Giant pantheon did Shaundakul kill during the Time of Troubles?
If I had to pick one id say Yeenoghu Demon Prince of Gnolls particularly as hes not present on Monster Deities Table on page 221 of F&P
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 06:38:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
So far Ive got the following
Amazing how many are still around for having died. I guess the line in that movie was right, death is only the beginning. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 06:42:49
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| That movie would be The Mummy |
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Emperor Sigismund
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 08:05:41
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Well, Torm died performing his Porfolio, so AO resurrected him.
Bane, planted a "seed" in his son, for such a contingency.
Mystra, well she is the Weave itself, so she must exist, even if it is her third incarnation.
Wasn't Liera killed by Cyric before the Time of Trouble officially ended?
Sseth, was killed/subplanted by Set wasn't he?
I think Shar also killed a power around Chult too. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 08:16:47
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No Leira was killed in Limbo so it didnt have an effect on Faerun physically
and Sseth isnt strictly dead yet (hes sleeping) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 22 Jan 2005 08:21:32 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 09:25:58
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Sseth, was killed/subplanted by Set wasn't he?
Ssethh killed Vaerae and absorbed his portfolio; the snake-god is also said to have appeared in Chult.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 09:36:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Also Eric Boyd if your reading this which Demipower of the Orc, Gnoll or Giant pantheon did Shaundakul kill during the Time of Troubles?
If I had to pick one id say Yeenoghu Demon Prince of Gnolls particularly as hes not present on Monster Deities Table on page 221 of F&P
It wasn't Yeenoghu.
I'd always assumed it was either Dukagsh (LE, DP of warfare) or Nazarn (N, DP of formal combat). However both have a very limited presence on Faerun (in fact Nazarn is more active on Oerth), and I've never read anything about either deity being in the ruins of Myth Drannor during the ToT where the orc deity Shaundakul killed, was said to have occured.
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 14:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I think Shar also killed a power around Chult too.
Shar killed Ibrandul in the Underdark beneath Waterdeep. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 22 Jan 2005 14:16:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 14:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Bane, planted a "seed" in his son, for such a contingency.
We do not know that for certain. While it is a viable theory, it's not the only one.
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I think Shar also killed a power around Chult too.
Eshowe, as I recall. But did that happen during the ToT? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Jan 2005 14:25:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 14:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Also Eric Boyd if your reading this which Demipower of the Orc, Gnoll or Giant pantheon did Shaundakul kill during the Time of Troubles?
If I had to pick one id say Yeenoghu Demon Prince of Gnolls particularly as hes not present on Monster Deities Table on page 221 of F&P
It wasn't Yeenoghu.
I'd always assumed it was either Dukagsh (LE, DP of warfare) or Nazarn (N, DP of formal combat). However both have a very limited presence on Faerun (in fact Nazarn is more active on Oerth), and I've never read anything about either deity being in the ruins of Myth Drannor during the ToT where the orc deity Shaundakul killed, was said to have occured.
I've never read anything more specific about who it was, either.
Nazarn I don't recall ever reading about, and I don't recall any Realms references to Almighty Dukagsh. I certainly hope it wasn't him, because I seriously dig the scro.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 15:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Eshowe, as I recall. But did that happen during the ToT?
Eshowdow (NE, DP of shadows, destruction, revenge). He was subsumed by Shar. I don't think it occured during the ToT, because all we know of that period is that Shar destroyed Ibrandul beneath Waterdeep and claimed his portfolio. We also know that Shar fought Selune for a time during this period as well. Nothing else has been mentioned.
Eshowdow was an ancient power... so it likely occured some time in the distant past.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 16:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nazarn I don't recall ever reading about, and I don't recall any Realms references to Almighty Dukagsh. I certainly hope it wasn't him, because I seriously dig the scro.
As far as I've seen, Nazarn is only mentioned once with regard to the Realms. He'd once sent an avatar to Faerun... I believe. And Dukagsh... well, I'm pretty certain the references I found for him regarding the Realms, were in SJ material...
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 17:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
No Leira was killed in Limbo so it didnt have an effect on Faerun physically
i am not familiar with the "3E multiverse" and don´t know too much of 2E planescape, so probably the following is a silly question:
what exactly does that mean?
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
...and considering the example of leira: could she still around on faerun/realmspace, because cyric killed her in limbo?
i´d very much like to throw a priest of leira my players way (playing in 1371 dr), and would feel better if i can back it canon-wise, even if it´s only a theory. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 20:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Limbo was her homeplane.
As to the multispheric question:
The way I see it, if Liera was killed on Oerth for example, she is "banished" from that plane, until she can restablish herself. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 01:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Limbo was her homeplane.
As to the multispheric question:
The way I see it, if Liera was killed on Oerth for example, she is "banished" from that plane, until she can restablish herself.
To expand a bit on what Warlockco said... Some deities exist in multiple worlds. Each setting happens on its own world (Dragginglance is Krynn, the Realms are Toril, etc), and each world is in its own solar system. When a deity is killed outside of the plane where they actually dwell, that deity is banished from that world (and thus, the entire solar system). If they exist in other settings, then they are still alive and kicking there. But, if a god is killed on the plane that they actually live on, then they are totally dead, everywhere.
Leira, like most Realms deities, existed only on Toril. Her homeplane was Limbo, so when Cyric and Mask slew her there, that was the end of her.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 04:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If they exist in other settings, then they are still alive and kicking there. But, if a god is killed on the plane that they actually live on, then they are totally dead, everywhere.
The conclusion of the Queen of the Spiders supermodule comes to mind. If I recall, there were options at the end for the characters to kill the goddess either in her own plane or elsewhere. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 07:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Limbo was her homeplane.
As to the multispheric question:
The way I see it, if Liera was killed on Oerth for example, she is "banished" from that plane, until she can restablish herself.
To expand a bit on what Warlockco said... Some deities exist in multiple worlds. Each setting happens on its own world (Dragginglance is Krynn, the Realms are Toril, etc), and each world is in its own solar system. When a deity is killed outside of the plane where they actually dwell, that deity is banished from that world (and thus, the entire solar system). If they exist in other settings, then they are still alive and kicking there. But, if a god is killed on the plane that they actually live on, then they are totally dead, everywhere.
Leira, like most Realms deities, existed only on Toril. Her homeplane was Limbo, so when Cyric and Mask slew her there, that was the end of her.
Simple, exact, and precise. Your definition was perfect, Wooly. And you've covered everything. I feel that there's only one point left to add...
Sometimes even killing a deity on their home plane is not enough. The case of Aoskar would seem to indicate that even those gods cast out onto the Silvery Void, have a way of finding their way back to some kind of existence as a power.
I don't think deities can ever truly be considered "destroyed". Although, perhaps if one cast a dead god isle through a portal into the Far Realm... the deity would cease to have any meaning or substance in our reality.
But that, is a discussion for another forum...
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 15:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
[quote]Originally posted by tauster
does a god continue to exist on one plane when (s)he is killed on another (except for the homeplane, naturally)? or paraphrased: is a god only dead on the plane (s)he was destroyed?
Leira, like most Realms deities, existed only on Toril. Her homeplane was Limbo, so when Cyric and Mask slew her there, that was the end of her.
Best to our knowledge that is the end of her. If she is multispheric we are not going to know.
Tiamat also slew Gilgleam (? not sure on that spelling)during the Time of Troubles. |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 05:30:30
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Hello-
Sorry to dredge up something from as long ago as this - but I have a related question:
Where id the reference for Shaundakul killing one of the Orcish gods in Myth Drannor during the Time of Troubles?
I'm sure this is an easy one, so Thanks heartilly for the reply! :)
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 05:41:48
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| Im pretty syre Faithes and Avatars (The 2ed source book) was the source for Shaundakul killing one of the Orc/Gnoll powers. The power he killed isnt named |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 16:08:01
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Question - I haven't looked in my 2E Faiths and Avatars book for a long time - is it a pretty good source for the ToT?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 18:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Question - I haven't looked in my 2E Faiths and Avatars book for a long time - is it a pretty good source for the ToT?
C-Fb
I consider those three books to be the best sources of lore for anything pertaining to deities.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 18:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Question - I haven't looked in my 2E Faiths and Avatars book for a long time - is it a pretty good source for the ToT?
C-Fb
I consider those three books to be the best sources of lore for anything pertaining to deities.
Indeed. And as I've said time and again, I continue to add 2e's Monster Mythology and PS's On Hallowed Ground supplements to the basic deity triad of books.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 19:52:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. And as I've said time and again, I continue to add 2e's Monster Mythology and PS's On Hallowed Ground supplements to the basic deity triad of books.
While I do have both of those tomes, I can't say I'm terribly familiar with either -- especially the latter. It's a more recent acquisition, and one I've not done much more than flip thru. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2005 : 02:13:40
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On Hallowed Ground is sometimes an easier reference for a particular deity, when you're looking for details fast. I mainly use it as a "ready-source" that's close at hand.
The three main deity books are more useful when you're looking for more in-depth info on gods.
And Monster Mythology is good for everything that falls in-between.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 16:39:35
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Well, I've long held a wondering about what happened with the various death gods during and around the time of troubles. In particular Orcus and Mellifleur (now Velsharoon?)
Myrkul (Lord of Death)- fairly understandable. Disintegrated by Midnight/Mystra, though his intellect still exists in a crown. There was a night that passed recently which served to drawn a lot of his power to the realms, but that was followed in Dungeon magazine and little realmslore followed
Orcus (Demon Lord of Undeath) - was slain by several people and/or beings apparently. It was either several instances, or one which I would like to see more realmslore on. Orcus was apparently slain by King Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara, along with his comrades.... Orcus was also apparently slain in realmslore by the drow goddess, Kiaransalee. Both occurred relatively recently. I find it very hard to believe that he was spanked twice within a short time (unless of course, he was weakened and then the times of troubles happened). Of course, I know both references come from separate modules (one the H series for bloodstone, the other the dead gods huge module), but I would like to hear more of what actually happened. For instance, does the most holy knight Gareth Dragonsbane owe a favor to the Drow goddess of undeath and vengeance? Also, apparently Gareth slew an aspect of Tiamat in the weakening of Orcus because he needed to bathe the wand of Orcus in its blood to destroy it. Now Orcus has arisen as an undead god again and is apparently gaining power once more. How did he come about re-animating?
Velsharoon - apparently there used to be a god of Liches who was named Mellifleur. There was never much heard of him, but he was apparently created by accident and he stripped a significant portion of Bane's power from him during his creation. Along comes a powerful outcast red wizard necromancer named Velsharoon. He apparently comes to some agreement with Talos and in some Imaskari ruins performs a ritual to become a lich which also elevates him to godhood.
Now, I don't envision Talos as being a god who would willingly give up his power to create another deity. I do see Velsharoon possibly finding the phylactery of Mellifleur hidden away in an old Imaskari tomb (perhaps Mellifleur was even an Imaskari, though the timeline for the arising of Bane would have to be questioned). I can then see Talos instructing Velsharoon in the ritual needed to ascend (after all, he'll just be pulling on the power of Mellifleur who was either destroyed during the ToT or had been hiding) by tying himself to the phylactery.
So, Velsharoon becomes the god of liches and goes ahead and claims the entire portfolio of necromancy. Why not, Orcus isn't around anymore to fight him for it. How did he do this? Is this perhaps what caused Orcus to arise again as an undead god?
Also, were there any vestiges of Mellifleur left whenever the ritual was performed? We also know that Velsharoon is trying to befriend Mystra, Talos, AND Shar. Could it be that Velsharoon and Mellifleur both exist now? It could be a split personality thing... it could be split into separate avatars. They might not even be aware of one another, though I doubt that. It might be that Velsharoon no longer exists and was subsumed by the will of Mellifleur (or vice versa).
Also, was Mellifleur not heard of after the time of troubles BECAUSE his power was tied to Bane's? Did Velsharoon's ascension CAUSE the re-awakening of Bane's power?
Finally, Velsharoon was an OUTCAST red wizard necromancer. This to me says he had a grudge against Thay, but they are a prime source for him to gain supporters. How has this played into things? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 01:28:27
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As far as the Orcus/Gareth/Kiransalee thing . . . I beleive most accounts that mention Gareth's exploits only mention that he destroyed the Wand of Orcus, not that he destroyed Orcus himself. If you think about it, it would almost makes sense, since Orcus' wand was destroyed, then Kiransalee attacks him when he was weakened, without his favorite weapon. As for why he arose as an undead demon lord, hey . . . how many necromancers do you need as worshippers before you pick up a few tricks, especially from the liches.
Velsharoon, if I remember correctly, was first mentioned as having performed a ritual that Talos lets certain very powerful mortals find that makes them demigods but binds them to Talos, who then somehow uses them up and tosses them out. I would be intriuged to find out just how Talos uses them, and perhaps find out about some of the other used up demigods that Talos as forsaken. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 02:05:32
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| Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Mellifleur has had any influence in the Realms... |
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Who died and made you god?
