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Sgian_Dubh
Acolyte
3 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 19:43:10
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Hi all,
I am considering having a plague sweep through the Realms (or at least the Heartlands and the North).
Where I am running into a problem is in planning out how the various clerical orders would respond to such a problem.
It is seldom mentioned in any FR novel or story, but I find it implausible that all disease and other illness is treated by divine magic and/or medicine.
What I mean by this is that I don't see there being a sufficient number of clerics to actually hold a disease in check, and I am not entirely certain that they would want to.
I could see nature deities forbidding their followers from interfereing in "a natural process" in the same way that various animal populations are also controlled by disease if overcrowiding becomes a problem.
I could certainly see various evil deities preventing their followers from stopping a plague, and moreover I could see some of them wanting their followers to foster such biological calamities.
I am also wondering how local populations might react to a plague that effects primarily elves? I suspect that most people would not be sufficiently educated and/or worldly to have a perspective of tollerance when a disease targets only one race.
What if the disease mutated and spread accross the races? Would the original race be blamed?
I also suspect that few, if any, people in the realms have an understanding of the concepts of how various illnesses are communicated between beings. Would anyone know what a germ is?
I am trying to come to terms with this to bring a greater sense of realism to my campaign. The realms often seem to be presented as some sort of sanitary "park" or "refuge" where our characters go about their business. But where it the grit, grime and filth that would be necessarilly common in societies where public sewers, public water, public trash, etc. are uncommon (or unheard of) except in a few enlightened places?
I mean you could argue that magic can be harnessed to meet many of these needs. Yet even then an enormous amount of infrastructure would be required. And who are the wielders of Art that are willing to spend their careers/lives refreshing spells to move sewage through pipes, to renew the containment fields around the areas where the creatures that serve as biological waste-treatment plants are kept, who renew the spells that pump the water, etc. An who is paying them for their skills? Who pays for their training? What kinds of taxes would be required to pay for this kind infrastructure?
I mean, if you stop an consider the utter filth that must fill the average Waterdehavian(sp?) street after a busy day. Various animal droppings, garbage, vomit, dead rats, perhaps a body or two.
I all too often see (and have done so myself) of presenting the realms as a place with Roman through Renaisance technology, but with the living-conditions, lifestyles and social constructs of a 20th century society.
For some, this is not an impediment to enjoying the Realms. For me, it is a growing point of contention. For those of you who are familiar with Poul Anderson, you can probably detect that I just finished reading (for the umpteenth time) "On Thud and Blunder".
For any of you who have never read Poul Anderson, please do. For those who have never read "On Thud and Blunder", here is a link: http://www.sfwa.org/writing/thud.htm
I would appreciate any and all feedback.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 21:14:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgian_Dubh
Hi all,
I am considering having a plague sweep through the Realms (or at least the Heartlands and the North).
Where I am running into a problem is in planning out how the various clerical orders would respond to such a problem.
It is seldom mentioned in any FR novel or story, but I find it implausible that all disease and other illness is treated by divine magic and/or medicine.
What I mean by this is that I don't see there being a sufficient number of clerics to actually hold a disease in check, and I am not entirely certain that they would want to.
Pandemic certainly can occur, though unlikely. Real World riles do not apply, however even if they did epicdemics can and have been stopped.
You are dealing with a fantasy world were cure deasease can cure diease. As to what percentage would do so that indeed is debatable, however the "good orders" that have Paladins, would send them out to battle a pandemic as they would not be able to catch diease at all in most cases.
This does not mean you can not do so in your version of the Realms of uncurable diease. |
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Sgian_Dubh
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 21:55:29
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Hi and thanks for your thoughts. I have a couple of questions as followup:
You mention that epidemics have been stopped. This is possibly true, although it certainly wasn't for the 1918 influenza or the Black Death, etc. I think these were cases where the disease mostly ran its course and it was "stopped" when it was already running out of steam, so to speak.
Also, you are talking about a world (present day) where large numbers of people are immunized against many diseases.
Let's consider the dubious and ill-thought-out ideas that has surfaced that we can stop inoculating against things like small pox. A what would happen if it should re-surface in a non-immunized population?
Anyway, I agree that real world rules don't apply - but only to a point. Yes there are Gods, yes there is magic, yes there is divine healing - but the first one pre-supposes that the God's will act (or want their followers to act for/against the disease) and the latter two issues presuppose that the masses (who will be the most susceptible due to poor hygiene, poor diet, etc.) will have efficient and timely access to these types of magical healing.
Here is an example to consider:
An infected (but not yet symptomatic) merchant arrives in Waterdeep. He conducts business, eats, attends a few meetings and then goes to a party. He have been in contact with, say, 100 people during all of this. Let's suppose that he successfully infected 5% of those people.
I'm not going to go through the math of a exponential growth of infection, but now those 5 people go on to infect others, etc.
Lets say that they very next morning the merchant exhibits symptoms. Is he quarantined? Does he realize how sick he is and seek immediate divine help or does he go about his business for another day or two?
Let us consider that one of the people he infected is a tavern worker who is poor and goes on to infect a number of people AND who does not seek divine healing because s/he cannot afford it?
Are there enough clerics and paladins, (of deities who will sanction the healing) in Waterdeep to catch up to the disease after a weeks time?
Let's say that the church(es) decide not to charge in order to eradicate the disease. They still have to cure each individual and every person that has become infected.
I am not saying it is impossible, because there is always the factor of direct intervention by a god (assuming that another god does not oppose this intervention).
The more I think about it the more I am coming to consider that a truly infectious and lethal plague (let's say 30% transmission, 3 day incubation and a mere 30% mortality rate) could prove a devastating calamity to the Realms, god and there servants notwithstanding.
And here is a final thought. Up to now I was suggesting a natural disease spread by natural means. What is the Drow unleashed a plague in an organized way with multiple infection sites, etc. specifically to prevent the 'good' churches from being able to concentrate divine healing in any one place?
Perhaps the answer is that the Weave "innuculates" all living beings in the Realm. But then, what of Outsiders?
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Edited by - Sgian_Dubh on 13 Jan 2005 22:02:16 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 22:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgian_Dubh
Hi and thanks for your thoughts. I have a couple of questions as followup:
You mention that epidemics have been stopped. This is possibly true, although it certainly wasn't for the 1918 influenza or the Black Death, etc. I think these were cases where the disease mostly ran its course and it was "stopped" when it was already running out of steam, so to speak.
Black Death slowed by cold weather, not divine intervention. However in the realms the deities will intervene. 1918, was bad I agree and it ran its course, warm weather was what tended to end that.
quote:
Also, you are talking about a world (present day) where large numbers of people are immunized against many diseases.
Nay I did not speak of that at all, however the RW knowledge base is better, though antibiotics are over used. A Pandemic risk increases each year because of over medication.
quote:
Let's consider the dubious and ill-thought-out ideas that has surfaced that we can stop inoculating against things like small pox. A what would happen if it should re-surface in a non-immunized population?
Anyway, I agree that real world rules don't apply - but only to a point. Yes there are Gods, yes there is magic, yes there is divine healing - but the first one pre-supposes that the God's will act (or want their followers to act for/against the disease) and the latter two issues presuppose that the masses (who will be the most susceptible due to poor hygiene, poor diet, etc.) will have efficient and timely access to these types of magical healing.
Also the gods actually talk to their followers. Yes perhaps there would be some that would act against preventing disease spread, however other deities almost certainly would spread the warning very aggressively and almost certainly heal their followers and those that they believe can convert. Timely access can be a problem however the greater deities will know at once if one of their followers are effected. They could nip it in the bud by avatar intervention if not direct action.
quote:
Here is an example to consider:
Read it an do not consider it valid. You are for the most part using RL rules and inferring that the deities will be slow to intervene. I reject both possibilities.
Even if I accepted them, there still is the fact that Realms works differently. The farmers produce enough food all (at least in most realms) the time (how is not explained) so killing 90 percent of them do not matter, the survivors will pick up the slack (how is not explainable, the Realms do not have any credible economic model). The best you can do with your proposal is say that there are a lot of dead bodies about. In fact that it is impossible (per core rules) to starve to death (subdual damage as opposed to lethal for not eating or drinking, you know) can result in a lot of people in coma until feed or given water.
In short because the Realms do not have an economy you can not distroy it. |
Edited by - Kentinal on 13 Jan 2005 23:29:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 23:06:05
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One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that in the Realms, deities depend on their followers. No followers means no power for the deity... So, unless a god actively favored untimely death and/or disease, it would be in their best interest to combat major outbreaks of disease.
And certain diseases could be cured by substances in the Realms that we don't have. I'm not home to check, but I'm certain that various plants and such in the Realms have healing properties. Plus, factor in the use of not just magic, but epic magic...
Further, disease and plagues are not unknown in the Realms. The history of Calimshan includes many plagues, as does the history of various cities on the Vilhon Reach. The novel Venom's Taste, set in Hlondeth, specifically mentions various plagues that have swept thru that are. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 23:44:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that in the Realms, deities depend on their followers. No followers means no power for the deity... So, unless a god actively favored untimely death and/or disease, it would be in their best interest to combat major outbreaks of disease.
And certain diseases could be cured by substances in the Realms that we don't have. I'm not home to check, but I'm certain that various plants and such in the Realms have healing properties. Plus, factor in the use of not just magic, but epic magic...
I thought I said that about deities protecting their followers, it certainly can make sense though that some deities might want to take out followers of other deities. Of course the lower ranked gods would be at greatest risk, they are not tuned in enough to know what happens to each follower (such as a greater deity is tuned in).
Oh yes there are herbal healings available to slow are stop disease, though if a new one was introduced it is posible that many would die while trying to learn how to combat it. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 01:17:59
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Ok a few things to note
Remove Diseases removes all NORMAL diseases when its cast on someone you'll not in the Remove Disease description in the PHB it says "Certain special diseases may not be countered by this spell or may be countered only by a caster of certain level"
It also says that remove disease does not stop reinfection
So Remove disease is not a be all and end all for stopping plague
The principal disease spreaders in the Realms history are Talona and the Orc goddess Yurtus both have a history of spreading plague.
Ill give you an example a Cleric of Talona decides he wants to create a plague in the city of Waterdeep the cleric decides that the best way to do this is to infect as many people as possiable in the shortest period of time so he crafts a wand of Contagion if hes got help maybe he crafts more than one if hes got some help. So lets say hes got a couple of acolytes helping out so he crafts 3 Wands of Contagion. for the disease he chooses something nasty and uses Deathsong (its from the book of Vile Darkness its contact the DC for saving against it is 25 so itsgoing to be exceptionally hard to avoid infection unless your at least 5th level or have a High constitution. The Incubation period is 24 hours so it wont be noticeable straight away and the damage is 1d8 of Con, Str and Dex damage EACH day there infected.
As the cleric of Talona has chosen Wands and has 3 of them he has 150 Contagion spells he and his acolytes can cast.
He gives a Wand to each his 2 acolytes and they go out into Waterdeep one goes down to the docks, one goes residential area where the lower class live and one goes to the market. As the Clerics move about the crows they come it contact with the people in the crowd and everyime they touch someone they trigger the wand of contagion
So potentially thats 150 people infected but lets say the cleric doesnt use all the charges on people lets say he uses some charges on Wells that people use to get water.
But to keep things simple well say the clerics infected
A case study Bob the carpenter is just packing up from his days work at the docks when hes jostled by some guy, the guy says something under his breath that Bob assumes is an apology , thinking nothing more of it Bob heads home to spend the night with his wife and 2.5 kids. Bobs a 1st level commoner with an average Constition of 10 theres no way hes going to make a save of 25. Hes infected. Bob comes through the door from work and his kids little johnnny and Sarah run and jump into his arms. 2 more saving throws neither are likely to make it thats 2 more infected. Bobs wife comes out of the kitchen and gives him a welcome home kiss thu infected herself.
The family have dinner and go to bed not knowing that the whole family are infected with a nasty disease which will kill them. 12 hours after Bob was infected the sun comes up on a new day maybe Bobs feeling a little under the weather but theres no Sick leave in the realms so he has to go to work to provide for his family so off he goes. Bobs wife gets up and goes out to the market to do the shopping and later laundry and little Johnny and sarah go out to play with the neighbourhood kids.
By the end of the day Bob has infected 2 of the guys he works with at the docks, the shopkeeper whose hand he touched while getting change when he bought his lunch.
His wife infects 2 of the washer women at the laundry when she drops off and picks up their clothes and a the Shop attendant at the Groceres and the Baker
The 2 kids infect 10 of the neighbourhood children that they played with.
Bob comes home feeling really crook and goes straight to bed, his wife and 2 kids are feeling sick to.
So 24 hours into the virus where its effect start appearing one charge has already infected 21 people
21x150 charges = 3150 are now infected in Waterdeep not all are showing signs of the disease yet. Some of those showing signs of the disease may have access to enough money to get a cleric to come out visit them and might get a remove disease spell cast on them thus "Curing them" maybe a couple of the clerics who visit the sick recognise the disease and alert the authorities that a dangerous disease has appeared in the city but only those people who have the money to visit the cleric are know (90% of the victims are undiagnosed)
Day 2 and Bobs at Deaths door hes been hit with 2 does of 2d8 to his str/Dex/Con anyone out of the origional 150 who had a Con of 8 or less has just died. (Assuming that each d8 takes an average of 4-5)His wife and kids have also taken there first hit from the disease and will likely have taken therir 2nd by the end of the day. By the end of the day the 17 people who Bobs family infected outside his family take there first hit from the disease but for most of day 2 no symptoms appear because they havent been infected for 24 hours and there still coming into contact with people...
Lets assume those 17 people infect 4 people each during day 2
Thats
17x4= 68
Thats 68 new cases plus the 17 people bobs family infected thats 85 plus Bobs family of 4 so thats 89
89x 150 = 13350 infected people in Waterdeep
Day 3
Bob and his family are dead and those they infected are now taking there 2nd hit of the disease. The Death toll is 4x150= 600 with 12750 people either noticeably infected or carrying the disease in the incubabtion period
At this point the clerics of city probably figure out that somethings up and rally to fight the disease
However at this stage 12750 people are infected with the disease, How many clerics in the city of Waterdeep are 5th level and able to cast Remove Disease? How many removed Disease spells can the Clergy of Waterdeep collectively cast in a single day? I doubt they can cure 12750 people and by the end of day 4 that figure is going to be pushing 100,000 infected or dying of Waterdeeps citizens
At some point the city will shut down, people wont leave their homes
thus significantly reducing infection, those who are already infected will die along with those who care for them inside their homes.
By the time the epidemic burns out Waterdeep has probably lost somewhere between 100,000 to 500,000 of its citizens
The Cleric of Talona is probably feeling quite good about himself
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 03:02:53
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Actually, a really bad disease would still cause massive devastation even in a world where clerics can heal. Many "plague" type diseases have very quick onsets, and hit someone quickly, and many people are contagious before they show symptoms. Yes clerics and paladins might slow the advance, but you may still have a lot of people die in the mean time.
Not that every plague should be of this level, but just think of how quick Ebola hits. You would have to have clerics ready to go with all the cure spells they have right off the bat to stop that. |
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Plagues and pestilence in the Realms
